Shawna Cox Video from Inside LaVoy's Truck

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: Boadicea

Umm Live has released contradictory reports of the Sheriff Finicum was going to meet being at th eroadblock. the sehriff denies this. So we cant believe Orogon live.

Yes, I'm well aware of the poor reporting by Oregon Live -- whether by design or incompetence. I wasn't finding anything else though... That's what's out there. So if it can be discredited, good for us to know.

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Well since ive stated / explained it yes im aware of it.

In this case though its not the case.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Well in this case Finicum was killed because of his actions. The proper setting to argue is in court and not roadside.

Secondly the disturbing trait I am seeing is people substituting law with their own opinion while ignoring facts

Fact - Finicum would still be alive had he complied.
Fact - Finicum would be alive had he not bolted out of the truck while yelling shoot me.
Fact - Finicum would be alive had he complied and not reach into his pockets.

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Looking through those, I don't see any that matched what Lavoy did.
Can you? Maybe I'm missing one.

No, I cannot. I was going to go over it again, but not upon initial reading.

Also, as I understand the FBI took jurisdiction. So are the local laws out the door? Are they combined with Federal guidelines for Rules of Engagement?

I have noted consistent references to "joint" operations and planning and decision making. The FBI's reputation makes me wonder just how much say they really gave the state authorities.

But as I understand it, the Governor wanted them out and had made a written demand to the DOJ to get them out, and the state Reps had called them a "virus" that was spreading and had to be eradicated, so it would seem to me that at least those three state officials would have supported whatever the FBI wanted, and the Governor would have directed the state police to do the same.

I don't know. What is the call on joint agency stops? Which one takes precedent in inter department between State and Local?

I believe this is an ongoing source of contention between the levels of government. There may be court decisions. I'm sure the feds cite the Supremacy Clause for their "higher" authority. Sorry. I really don't know.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: yuppa

Fine - link to the article in question please.

Secondly the Sheriff would have no legal authority to interfere with a federal / state law enforcement action (FBI / OSP).

HEy read this. Exsplains Why the FBI is under investigation.FBI under investigation

This LES ZAITZ seems to have a hard on for th esheriff and th eoccupiers . here is th earticle you asked for about th eshrifss whereabouts.

Sheriffs OP on stand off.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Boadicea

Incorrect.. Finicums case can still be investigated and charges could be filed via a federal civil rights investigation.

Good to know! Thanks.

Shooting / killing a person by police is a technical seizure under the 4th amendment and could be a violation of his civil rights.

Indeed. Hence my invocation of the provocation-of-conflict doctrine.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Well in this case Finicum was killed because of his actions. The proper setting to argue is in court and not roadside.

Secondly the disturbing trait I am seeing is people substituting law with their own opinion while ignoring facts

Fact - Finicum would still be alive had he complied.
Fact - Finicum would be alive had he not bolted out of the truck while yelling shoot me.
Fact - Finicum would be alive had he complied and not reach into his pockets.

Read wha i posted. Finicum didnt get out th etruck running and saying shoot me. he was sitting in th edrivers seat when he sdared them to shoot him because he wa s on his way to see th e sheriff.

a reply to: Boadicea

The FBI was the lead agency because the crimes occurred on federal property.

A joint task force extends the abilities of the governing agency to other agencies who are a part of it. local / state law enforcement who have officers assigned to a federal task force would have, in general, the same authority as the federal agency when acting in that capacity.

What policies the forwarded officers are bound to is affected by state law / departmental policy / situation.

A joint agency stop would defer to the lead agency.

Most states have laws that say when a law enforcement officer from another state / federal law enforcement is engaged in their duties and comes into the state they would be considered lawful law enforcement in that state. It stems from the fresh pursuit doctrine.

Other states have laws that allow state / county / city law enforcement state wide jurisdiction when dealing with in progress crimes.

The FBI has, in general, the same abilities as local law enforcement to initiate traffic stops. In this case they were stopping and arresting for the crimes that occurred on federal property.

Its not based on the supremacy clause. The term is separate sovereigns (state and Federal). The FBI cannot enforce state / local / city laws anymore than the city / county / state police can enforce federal laws (exceptions exist like a joint task force / memo of understanding / etc).

As an example counterfeit money is a federal crime. Its also a state crime in my state. We turn those investigations over to the feds. My states law for counterfeiting carries a stronger penalty than the federal law. The federal prosecutor and state prosecutor will talk and whoever has the strongest case usually prosecutes.

As for the Governor he was pissed the feds were allowing it to continue as long as they did.

originally posted by: Boadicea
Indeed. Hence my invocation of the provocation-of-conflict doctrine.

Which has no application in this instance. Its only applicable after a sentence by the court and deals solely with the 8th amendment.

The application to law enforcement is how I explained it and the criteria was set by SCOTUS rulings. The doctrine you are trying to use has no application during law enforcement actions.

a reply to: yuppa

Well the video says otherwise.

Saying your going to meet the sheriff is irrelevant.

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: Granite

LaVoy seemed to have a death wish by repeatingly asking the cops to "shoot me"
Police told LaVoy to get the passengers out of the car, @ 43:00 - you can see LaVoy asking them if they "want out?"
It wouldn't surprise me if LaVoy did go for his gun... He was acting like an idiot while putting other peoples lives at risk.
The whole episode looks like: Suicide by Cop to me.

I seem to be missing something. He almost hits someone with his car then jumps out and starts shouting about the fact that they're going to have to shoot him. The words 'deranged asshat' jump to mind. Then there's also the fact that he threatens the Oregon State Police by saying that they have people coming to their aid.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: Vector99

The fatal shots were fired AFTER he started reaching for his gun. He kept his 9mm on that side.

You must be some kind of psychic guru to get that from the audio..

No, just someone with common sense, and knowledge of tying videos together.

Thanks for the compliment though.

a reply to: Xcathdra

X, there's literally no arguing this with set-minded people. You know I was one to defend him until I heard audio. Well, the audio is out, and matched with video, and I changed my stance immediately. It seems others just want this to be something more than it is. It's not worth arguing with people that can't seem to watch 2+2=4. they want it to equal 5 sooo bad. But no, it's not the case and he was shot while reaching for a gun, at least I've seen that now.

a reply to: Vector99

You are right.. It's one of my failings.

Wow, he appears to have been murdered. He was never going to make it to the sherif.

a reply to: Hex1an

Yeah, suicide by cop would be a better way to phrase it. I keep forgetting that this was the incident where he tried to drive through a foot of snow to get around a barricade. It was mighty dumb to even leave the compound.

B-But the FBI investigated themselves and found no wrong doing!

Nothing to see here folks.

Wow great video, as soon he gets out of the car the windows are shot at.

So they shot at him the moment he got out of the car, not even a chance to surrender

This paints the whole thing completely different to official story, not to mention it sounds like they're shooting the car as it approaches the roadblock, note I say sounds because I can't really identify what those plinking sounds are just before he mounts the snow bank

But wow, shot at as soon he gets out of the vehicle, that's not policing, that's assassinating

3 shots to incapacitate/murder him too, shot sounds fairly distant compared to original shots at the window, so I think I was right when I said there was somebody not in the FBI footage who shot him

originally posted by: Konduit
B-But the FBI investigated themselves and found no wrong doing!

Nothing to see here folks.

There was no FBI investigation it wasn't an FBI operation. It was state troopers and they were the one doing the unveatigation. After seeing this video guarantee they thought it was a legal shooting. Finnicum did everything wrong at the first stop he was just an asshole taunting the police. And the second he bails out the car yelling shoot me. He made it seem like he was forcing their hand even if that wasn't his intention.