Shawna Cox Video from Inside LaVoy's Truck

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

He was shot at.

Yes, he was shot at and had every reason and right to fear for his own life, as well as the lives of everyone else in the vehicle.

He was not actually hit at that point...

So? All that tells me is that the murderous FBI agent was a lousy shot... and Finicum's life was still in danger.

... when the situation was - just about - retrievable.

Nothing was "retrievable" because law enforcement had already created and perpetuated a dangerous and no-win situation for everyone involved.

Instead he runs off, with his hands down and then moved them towards his gun - whilst shouting 'shoot me'.

In a heroic and valiant effort to save the others by making himself the target, as the LEOs had already made it obvious they were out for blood -- his and everyone in the vehicle.

Finicum was a hero. The FBI agents aren't fit to spit shine his combat boots.

Words fail me. They actually fail me. A hero??? Asking to be shot next to the car??? The man was one of bunch of delusional and destructive dingbats. He was also the only one stupid enough to get shot. The others gave up peacefully, leaving the final pillocks to surrender at the sanctuary, where they first made utter fools of themselves.
Personally speaking I think that the men who shot Finicum showed a blatant disregard for basic safety as if they'd missed the man they might have shot the other officers and agents.

a reply to: Boadicea

If the goal of the authorities was to execute everyone in that vehicle, why didn't they? They could have easily killed every one of them and there wouldn't have been anyone to contradict their story. Instead the only one who ended up dead is the one who made himself a target and a threat.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

Personally speaking I think that the men who shot Finicum showed a blatant disregard for basic safety as if they'd missed the man they might have shot the other officers and agents.

That I can agree with. But I would take it further and say that the entire operation, as designed and executed, endangered the lives of everyone involved, especially the state police officers at the roadblock. I also believe that was exactly their intention, thus putting Finicum in a no-win situation, giving every officer on the ground reason to fear for their lives and thus to use lethal force, and ensuring Finicum's demise.

a reply to: Granite

Here is what we do know. A group of well armed folks decide to take over some government property. They inform the authorities that they don’t care that they have committed a criminal act and that any attempts to bring them to justice will be met with armed resistance, gunfire that is to say. So the ultimate end is that one of the more vocal, aggressive, and unpredictable members of this group finds himself in a show down and escalates his display of open hostility informing the police that they are going to have to kill him.

The thing to remember here is that there is no question that this man was armed. And was armed for purposes of defying authority. What the f**k did he expect? You see those folks in the woods, you know the police, are people also and are rightly more concerned with their safety than the delusional dreams of some sovereignty obsessed egotist who refuses to recognize any authority over his own personal desires. This is where this was all coming from. Now we want to rewrite the whole story as a poor little right thinking gentleman exercising his right to civil disobedience. I don’t think Thoreau mentioned packing a 9mm and waving it in the air, (Metaphorically speaking that is.), as a component of the civil disobedience he advocated. You see the presences of all the artillery these folks brought with them sent a message just as they wanted. Or maybe they just thought it was cool wear guns. The one thing to realize is that the message they were sending is, in this case, to another armed individual whose primary concern is that he come home alive.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
He was shot at. He was not actually hit at that point, when the situation was - just about - retrievable. Instead he runs off, with his hands down and then moved them towards his gun - whilst shouting 'shoot me'.

I said "Finicum was shot at the moment he exited the vehicle WITH HIS HANDS UP"

I never mentioned anything about him getting hit.

Yes he was yelling "shoot me" but the moment he steps out the car WITH HANDS UP, UP, UP not down reaching but UP he gets shot at.

He only gets hit when he reaches

The way you're talking is like you've purposefully erased scenes from the actual video in your mind to suit your Official story loving agenda

Did he make a bad situation worse with his yelling ? Yes
Did the government forces make a bad situation worse by shooting at the car ? Yes

Both Finicum and the government bullies are to blame for this situation, the only difference is the government are supposed to follow strict protocols which they clearly did not which makes their wrong doing not only worse but incredibly worrying for any member of the public who might have the slightest bit of potential for dissent within them.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Boadicea

If the goal of the authorities was to execute everyone in that vehicle, why didn't they? They could have easily killed every one of them and there wouldn't have been anyone to contradict their story. Instead the only one who ended up dead is the one who made himself a target and a threat.

Oh but they tried! And they failed!!!

Their obvious incompetence (and that's the nicest word I can use) is all on them. The entire set up, and their actions from beginning to end put their ill intentions, as well as their incompetence, on full display.

originally posted by: BatheInTheFountain
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't shooting at a vehicle fleeing without a threat of any harm....Illegal?

And when they shot at the windows while he got out with his hands up? Was that not Illegal also?

Yeah, it is. It's called attempted murder and murder in the first degree.

I'm sure everyone has their opinions though.

I don't necessarily agree with what either party involved was doing, but the outcome is the result of a tyrannical government, clearly fearful of their fragile position they have placed themselves in as predators. More and more of this will happen as time goes on, because the system everyone buys into is a) not sustainable and b) falling apart by the day.

A few of my thoughts, for what they are worth:

LaVoy was a modern day cowboy. I don't use that term in a derogatory sense at all. People who live out in the wide open, western landscape with thousands of acres to roam about in have a sense of psychological freedom and self-authority we don't have in the crowded east. My indoctrination has been if I challenge law enforcement on my own terms I'm more than likely going to lose. Life is very different where he came from than where I live.

In a sense, this was a present day showdown at the OK Corral, and by stating that I'm not making light of what happened at all; the big difference being LaVoy never drew a weapon. He used words. I'm only making a symbolic comparison. He made it very clear, to me anyway, either he was going to see the sheriff or they would have to shoot him. No third option was given, or considered, by him.

Looking at it esoterically, I still think LaVoy gave himself up to archetypal forces.

It became obvious to me when I watched Shawna's recording what LaVoy's mind set was when he stopped the first time. He was not afraid. He was furious that what was happening, was happening. He yelled more than once that law enforcement could do whatever they damn well pleased but he was going to see the sheriff. He also referred to them as "boys" and to one of the officers as "son." To the end, he wanted to be in control of what happened to him and was not going to defer to anyone. (I can just imagine anyone around here talking to officers that way even though we still have peace officers!)

People are challenging authority in these times because oftentimes authority is overbearing at least. It's a risk. There will be consequences. Depending on how it's done, the consequences will be great or small. If anyone wants to make a stand against authority, such as it is now, for whatever reason, all actions should be carefully weighed.

LaVoy's death shifted things.

Am I saying LaVoy was wrong in what he did? No, but I do wish the outcome had been different. He crossed the Rubicon for what he believed in and was willing to meet the consequences. At that point in the stand-off at the refuge he wanted to go home. Two days before the meeting in John Day, they were warned via friendly intel things were about to get ugly if they didn't leave the refuge.

If any of those bullets the FBI hostage rescue team shot when LaVoy exited his truck and put his arms out had killed him I'd more than likely be calling it manslaughter. That moment, when LaVoy exited the truck, has been blurred out of the FBI video.

I'm willing to bet, based upon my intuition, most of the officers on the scene didn't want to see LaVoy killed. I originally stated somewhere I thought the officer who came out of the woods with what appeared to be a taser was giving LaVoy an opportunity, an out, but it didn't work.

Unfortunately.

In this case I can't, still, in good conscience, side for or against law enforcement or for or against the occupiers. There's too many gray areas and too many mitigating circumstances in my perspective based upon all that occurred.

People can and will continue to protest. We are in tumultuous times which are leading to what, I don't know. I just don't know.

Murder....................blow backs a bitch boys....

a reply to: Xcathdra

He is not allowed to resist a detention / stop / arrest, legal or not

Wait wait wait.

Let me get this straight, Finicum (or anyone for that matter), is not allowed to resist an illegal detention/stop/arrest?

Is that your statement?

So we just take our lumps, hope we come out of whatever illegal interaction is being forced upon us alive, and fight it in court, right?

Is there ever a point at which law enforcement actions are so egregious in their illegality that us lowly citizens are allowed to resist?

a reply to: Boadicea

Incompetence? The guy avoided two roadblocks, putting at least one officer's life in danger. Then proceeded to get out of the car, yell at the cops to shoot him, and reach for a gun. If this was anyone else anyone would say it's a clear cut case of suicide by cop. If he had just stopped at the first roadblock, like the other car, there would have been no deaths and no injuries. But you want us to believe that the only reason the only person who died is the one that posed a threat to officers is due to incompetence on the post of the authorities?

Military style Ambush

His only chance would of been stepping out of the car at the first Stop

I Also don't believe F.B.I. Hostage Rescue Team missed with there firearms ........

Sad time for the citizens of America whether you support this mans reasons or not

He did not deserve that

Riouz

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Boadicea

Incompetence? The guy avoided two roadblocks, putting at least one officer's life in danger. Then proceeded to get out of the car, yell at the cops to shoot him, and reach for a gun. If this was anyone else anyone would say it's a clear cut case of suicide by cop. If he had just stopped at the first roadblock, like the other car, there would have been no deaths and no injuries. But you want us to believe that the only reason the only person who died is the one that posed a threat to officers is due to incompetence on the post of the authorities?

Well, the authorities did bring it to this point, as the protesters did too, but I don't think they were totally ignorant to the fact of violence being threatened upon them. The man shot was clearly all in, he basically said it himself. I'm sure he wasn't ignorant to the fact that he would be shot at for standing up for what he believed in. And looking at the video, they did indeed shoot him when his hands were down, yet he had his back and side turned to them when they shot him. Not exactly a threatening stance, now is it. But if I was a cop trained to make life and death decisions in a split second, I'm not sure I wouldn't pull the trigger either. Both parties are at fault. But one has some honor, the other doesn't.

So, at what point do people just roll over and do as they are told? He was going to prison for life anyway. What's the point in living if you are just going to roll over to the monopoly of violence the government wields and rot in jail?

America was founded on people LIKE him. Standing up against tyranny in the face of violence, for what they believed was right. I'm not saying his cause was right OR wrong...it is what it is.

If everyone just gave up at the threat of violence, then well, we'd be living in a dictatorship...oh wait, we are because basically everyone HAS given themselves up in the face of a monopoly of violence. Not that that is illogical in any way shape or form to do so, in the moment. BUT, don't cry foul when you realize you truly do NOT live in a free world.

That said, I'm not a proponent of violence myself. I truly hope that there is another way to take back this planet from the robber barons.

Bondage through debt and violence is the name of this game. And unless you are off grid, alone in the wilderness, you truly aren't free. Actually, you truly aren't free there either because you are again at the mercy of violence from nature.

Life sure is strange.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Boadicea

Incompetence?

Yes, incompetence:

Cox's video showed that one shot hit the truck's left rear passenger window as Finicum stepped out. At the time, Finicum appeared to have his hands at least at shoulder height.

Investigators later established that the bullet entered the truck through the roof before shattering the window and concluded it was fired by an FBI agent. Another bullet from the same FBI agent apparently went wild and missed the truck altogether, the investigation showed.

I would cite the many problems with the entire set up of the ambush, but I don't believe that was incompetence...

The guy avoided two roadblocks, putting at least one officer's life in danger.

There was only one roadblock. He was initially stopped in a so-called "felony traffic stop," and left the scene when LEO began firing unprovoked on his vehicle, endangering his life and the lives of everyone in the vehicle.

The second roadblock was designed by LE to be unavoidable, strategically placed beyond a blind curve, with no outlet. Finicum was given three choices: Plow right into the roadblock, swerve to the left, or swerve to the right. Finicum did not put anyone's life in danger; those who designed and executed that roadblock put everyone's lives in danger.

Then proceeded to get out of the car, yell at the cops to shoot him, and reach for a gun.

As LE was actively firing upon the vehicle, and therefore everyone within that vehicle, and indirectly all officers in the line of fire, especially given the poor aim of at least one, Finicum tried to make himself the target and thus spare the others in the vehicle. Finicum gave the officers too much credit. Killing him wasn't enough; they tried to kill everyone else after they had already shot him dead.

If this was anyone else anyone would say it's a clear cut case of suicide by cop.

You presume too much. I sure wouldn't, and I'm sure many others would not as well. Only those who are more interested in the "who" than the "what" and the "how."

If he had just stopped at the first roadblock, like the other car, there would have been no deaths and no injuries.

But he did... and there were.

But you want us to believe that the only reason the only person who died is the one that posed a threat to officers is due to incompetence on the post of the authorities?

That sentence doesn't even make sense to me. I explained myself. No need for you to speak for me.

Well that clears it up pretty well. Legally stopped, belligerently refused to comply with any lawful orders, fled the scene and then made an aggressive move towards police once he was forced to stop.

I can't believe they didn't pull his sorry ass out of that truck with well deserved excessive force when he was stopped and openly refusing to follow the orders of police at that point!

a reply to: Boadicea

Hogwash. the video clearly demonstrates that the morons in the back seat were encouraging him to take off, and after he decided to flee from lawful stop, THEN they state "are they shooting at us?"

a reply to: usernameconspiracy

Hogwash.

Okay, but I'm not the one you're really calling "hogwash" on... I am quoting and relying on the statements of law enforcement.

a reply to: jadedANDcynical

The legality of a stop / officers actions is determined by a court and not roadside by a person who doesn't know the law. Any other statements you want to latch onto and blow out of proportion?

Lets state something here for the record.

The police and FBI are the ones who claim that he had a gun in his coat pocket.
They claim that he was reaching for it and that is why he was shot.
He was moving his hands in the general area of his pocket however the three shots that hit him according to the autopsy were from the BACK!
The claim is that he was a danger to the officer with the taser.
However.

The pistol found in his pocket was a Ruger LC9 which is a 9mm automatic.
Lavoy's family have stated that he did not own or posses a Ruger LC9 and that the only handguns he owned were a 1911 in .45acp and a .44 revolver.

The first shots were fired by the FBI HRT team prior to or during his exit of the truck. The truck had also already been hit by the stupid OSP officer that jumped in front of the truck. So in my opinion Lavoy exited the truck because he knew that there were women in the truck and hoped to draw the attention of the police shooters toward himself and away from the truck. He was already under fire, given that shooting by the FBI was without the knowledge of the OSP it would have come as a shock to those officers and would ramp up the stress level. Any movements by Lavoy at that point were going to draw fire from the officers. Which is what occurred.

Given that the FBI acted in what appears to be an illegal manner and attempted to cover that up, we are left to wonder if they in fact planted that LC9 in order to justify after the fact the shooting? The fact that Lavoy did not actually produce anything in his hand indicating a threat would be used to convict a civilian in his shooting if this was an altercation NOT involving law enforcement.

I am a gun guy, I carry on a daily basis. If I were to shoot a guy with empty hands because he moved them towards his pocket I would be facing murder charges. Even if he later proved to have a gun in his pocket thats not an indication of an immediate threat.

a reply to: Dragoon01

Keep in mind in the video you hear someone ask "where are the guns". Listen to the answer I don't want to skew someones opinion before they listen to it, but maybe other people hear the same thing as me. It is CLEAR that nobody in the back seat has a weapon, it is clear that the front passenger does not have a weapon.

From what I can hear it appears there are NO weapons and they have an "oh sh*t" moment where they realize they could be in a gun fight without any weapons.