Whoa! The Julian Calendar is always ahead of the Gregorian Calendar?

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: neutrinostargate

No, you didn't show me anything except many factoids about different calendars Mayans were using.

Show me on which date in our modern Gregorian calendar started Mayan long count. Explain me how you arrived to this particular date without using GMT theory. As you may know there are other alternative theories as well, so Im waiting for your explanation.

WTF are you talking about man? LOL

I have explained like 100 times now the beginning date is August 11th, 3114 BC (Gregorian) or Sept. 6th, 3114 BC (Julian). The GMT correlation is correct.

Are you saying the June 1st, 2016 wouldn't be correct because it doesn't follow the GMT correlation, which it actually does that I have shown?

Like I said, the GMT correlation had more to do with figuring out the beginning date of the 13 baktun cycle then its end obviously.

Don't you know that?

Here is an article here that helps explain it and with carbon dating:

news.psu.edu...

a reply to: neutrinostargate

I have explained like 100 times now the beginning date is August 11th, 3114 BC (Gregorian) or Sept. 6th, 3114 BC (Julian). The GMT correlation is correct.

Ok, so you basically agree with the most common explanation.
Now you need to show me that GMT theory was wrong in counting difference about leap years.
You refused to go into details how "they" aka GMT actually made correspondence between our calendar and Mayan long count. Somehow you are sure that "they" did mistake. So, show me what was "their" mistake.

To save you time, they were aware about leap years please stop inventing "their mistake" and debunk it.

5128.767 years from beginning 8/11/3114 BC to end is May 19th, 2016 (Julian) or June 1st, 2016 (Gregorian).

How do we know it is May 19th, 2016?

5128.767/4.123 (Gregorian leap years) or 1 day per 4.123 years = 1245 days

1,872,000 plus 1245 days = 1,873,245

Now convert it to what it would be in our Gregorian date?

1,873,245/365.2425 = 5128.77 which matches perfectly with the 1,872,000/365 Vague Mayan solar year = 5128.767

What I am confused about is May 20th, 2016 the Gregorian date or the Julian date because if you look at it this way. 5128 years/4 years or 1 leap day per 4 years and the Mayans subtracted 13 days every 52 years or 1 leap day per 4 years = 1282 or 1284 including this year for leap year and the beginning date as well. So 1,872,000 days plus 1284 days from August 11th, 3114 BC = June 1st, 2016.

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: neutrinostargate

I have explained like 100 times now the beginning date is August 11th, 3114 BC (Gregorian) or Sept. 6th, 3114 BC (Julian). The GMT correlation is correct.

Ok, so you basically agree with the most common explanation.
Now you need to show me that GMT theory was wrong in counting difference about leap years.
You refused to go into details how "they" aka GMT actually made correspondence between our calendar and Mayan long count. Somehow you are sure that "they" did mistake. So, show me what was "their" mistake.

To save you time, they were aware about leap years

please stop inventing "their mistake" and debunk it.

The GMT is used to arrive at the beginning date. Got that? Using the Julian day which isn't related to the Julian nor the Gregorian calendar.

The mistake is figuring out the end. The Mayans didn't include leap years. Leap years or days are used to try to match the tropical year so the seasons don't drift. The Mayans didn't care about that, hence their solar New Year drifted. They didn't add leap days, they subtracted them. Hence the reasons if you want to try to find the correct Mayan 13 baktun cycle end date, you add all the leap days into the equation.

Now you show me how I am wrong? LOL At this point I think you are trolling my thread.

a reply to: neutrinostargate

5128.767 years from beginning 8/11/3114 BC to end is May 19th, 2016 (Julian) or June 1st, 2016 (Gregorian).

How do we know it is May 19th, 2016?

5128.767/4.123 (Gregorian leap years) or 1 day per 4.123 years = 1245 days

1,872,000 plus 1245 days = 1,873,245

Forget about years. Using years division calculations is not good enough.

1. GMT theory states that you accept the date August 11-th 3114 BC as the starting day of Mayan long count.
2. Now you need 1.800.000 days to count
3. Show me that 1.800.000 days end count doesn't fall on December 2012. ( I want to stay with some days errors since there are slightly different GMT correlations with error of 2-5 days. So, correspondingly the start day can be somewhere in August 3114 B.C.)

5128.767 years is what ? where this number come from ? what is so sacred about May 19-th ?
1245 days is what ? All you are doing is some redundant calculations proving nothing.

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: neutrinostargate

5128.767 years from beginning 8/11/3114 BC to end is May 19th, 2016 (Julian) or June 1st, 2016 (Gregorian).

How do we know it is May 19th, 2016?

5128.767/4.123 (Gregorian leap years) or 1 day per 4.123 years = 1245 days

1,872,000 plus 1245 days = 1,873,245

Forget about years. Using years division calculations is not good enough.

1. GMT theory states that you accept the date August 11-th 3114 BC as the starting day of Mayan long count.
2. Now you need 1.800.000 days to count
3. Show me that 1.800.000 days end count doesn't fall on December 2012. ( I want to stay with some days errors since there are slightly different GMT correlations with error of 2-5 days. So, correspondingly the start day can be somewhere in August 3114 B.C.)

5128.767 years is what ? where this number come from ? what is so sacred about May 19-th ?
1245 days is what ? All you are doing is some redundant calculations proving nothing.

Obviously you are completely lost and confused since you are mentioning 1,800,000 days. LOL

I have explained the 5128.767 years and how I arrived to it numerous times. Either you can't read and understand logic to well or you are completely confused.

And how in the world did you get 1,800,000 days? WTF? LOL

If you are mentioning the completely inaccurate amount of days then I am wondering if you are trolling my thread.

Sept 6th, 3114 BC (Julian) is 1,872,000 days to Dec. 21st, 2012 (Gregorian) using a the Gregorian 365.2425 solar year. That is a total of 5125.36 years

www.msevans.com...

Sept 6th, 3114 BC (Julian) is 1,872,000 days to May 19th, 2016 using the Haab vague 365 solar year. That is a total of 5128.767 years

The question though is May 19th, 2016 the Gregorian or Julian calendar date or is June 1st, 2016 the Gregorian and May 19th, 2016 is the Julian date?

The reason why May 19th date is important because it has to do with the Sun Pleiades alignment which is tied in with their 52 calendar round cycle.

a reply to: neutrinostargate

And how in the world did you get 1,800,000 days? WTF? LOL

I meant 1.872.000 days.
Accept this correction. It is hard not to make some mistake when you trying to argue with you

a reply to: neutrinostargate

Sept 6th, 3114 BC (Julian) is 1,872,000 days to Dec. 21st, 2012 (Gregorian) using a the Gregorian 365.2425 solar year. That is a total of 5125.36 years

www.msevans.com...

Sept 6th, 3114 BC (Julian) is 1,872,000 days to May 19th, 2016 using the Haab vague 365 solar year. That is a total of 5128.767 years

This can not be. 1.872.000 days is exactly 1.872.000 days. You don't count them with neither Gregorian or Mayan Haab.
All modern researchers counting them with JND. Which makes all needed calculations needed for leap years the dates around 45 B.C. and other difficult to count dates during all this period.

en.wikipedia.org...
table

Long Count Gregorian date
GMT (584283) correlation Julian day
number
13.0.0.0.0 Mon, Aug 11, 3114 BCE 584 283
1.0.0.0.0 Thu, Nov 13, 2720 BCE 728 283
2.0.0.0.0 Sun, Feb 16, 2325 BCE 872 283
3.0.0.0.0 Wed, May 21, 1931 BCE 1 016 283
4.0.0.0.0 Sat, Aug 23, 1537 BCE 1 160 283
5.0.0.0.0 Tue, Nov 26, 1143 BCE 1 304 283
6.0.0.0.0 Fri, Feb 28, 748 BCE 1 448 283
7.0.0.0.0 Mon, Jun 3, 354 BCE 1 592 283
8.0.0.0.0 Thu, Sep 5, 41 CE 1 736 283
9.0.0.0.0 Sun, Dec 9, 435 1 880 283
10.0.0.0.0 Wed, Mar 13, 830 2 024 283
11.0.0.0.0 Sat, Jun 15, 1224 2 168 283
12.0.0.0.0 Tue, Sep 18, 1618 2 312 283
13.0.0.0.0 Fri, Dec 21, 2012 2 456 283


2456283-584283=1872000



Julian Day Number may be confusing name. Let's call it the most precise scientific way of day counting currently available. Period.

Looking at the Julian Day more closely, it actually does use a 365.25 solar year like the Julian calendar.

It started on Jan. 1st, 4713 BC (Julian) date plus 584,283 (GMT correlation number) = Sept 6th, 3114 BC.

www.msevans.com...

"In astronomy, a Julian year (symbol: a) is a unit of measurement of time defined as exactly 365.25 days of 86400 SI seconds each.[1][2][3][4] The Julian year is the average length of the year in the Julian calendar used in Western societies in previous centuries, and for which the unit is named. Nevertheless, because an astronomical Julian year measures duration rather than designating a date, this Julian year does not correspond to years in the Julian calendar or any other calendar."

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: neutrinostargate

Sept 6th, 3114 BC (Julian) is 1,872,000 days to Dec. 21st, 2012 (Gregorian) using a the Gregorian 365.2425 solar year. That is a total of 5125.36 years

www.msevans.com...

Sept 6th, 3114 BC (Julian) is 1,872,000 days to May 19th, 2016 using the Haab vague 365 solar year. That is a total of 5128.767 years

This can not be. 1.872.000 days is exactly 1.872.000 days. You don't count them with neither Gregorian or Mayan Haab.
All modern researchers counting them with JND. Which makes all needed calculations needed for leap years the dates around 45 B.C. and other difficult to count dates during all this period.

en.wikipedia.org...
table

Long Count Gregorian date
GMT (584283) correlation Julian day
number
13.0.0.0.0 Mon, Aug 11, 3114 BCE 584 283
1.0.0.0.0 Thu, Nov 13, 2720 BCE 728 283
2.0.0.0.0 Sun, Feb 16, 2325 BCE 872 283
3.0.0.0.0 Wed, May 21, 1931 BCE 1 016 283
4.0.0.0.0 Sat, Aug 23, 1537 BCE 1 160 283
5.0.0.0.0 Tue, Nov 26, 1143 BCE 1 304 283
6.0.0.0.0 Fri, Feb 28, 748 BCE 1 448 283
7.0.0.0.0 Mon, Jun 3, 354 BCE 1 592 283
8.0.0.0.0 Thu, Sep 5, 41 CE 1 736 283
9.0.0.0.0 Sun, Dec 9, 435 1 880 283
10.0.0.0.0 Wed, Mar 13, 830 2 024 283
11.0.0.0.0 Sat, Jun 15, 1224 2 168 283
12.0.0.0.0 Tue, Sep 18, 1618 2 312 283
13.0.0.0.0 Fri, Dec 21, 2012 2 456 283


2456283-584283=1872000

Julian Day Number may be confusing name. Let's call it the most precise scientific way of day counting currently available. Period.

A day is going to be defined by a solar year. A day is different in a Gregorian solar count, a Julian solar count, and a Mayan Haab. Why do you think there is a 13 day difference now between the Gregorian and Julian. The Julian is 10.8 minutes longer per day than the Gregorian.

Like I said before, you can arrive at 584,283 day GMT correlation from anywhere using the correct method. 584,283 is Sept 6th, 3114 BC

June 1st, 2016 (Gregorian) is 2,457,541 days from Jan 1st, 4713 BC.

There are 1,872,000 days at Dec. 21st, 2012 (Gregorian) plus 1245 days (1245 figured by 5128 years/4.123 Gregorian leap years or 1 leap day per 4.123 years = 1245 day). 1,872,000 days plus 1245 days since you are adding the leap year days since the Mayans didn't have a leap year =
1,873,245 days.

2,457,541 - 1,873,245 days = 584,296

You see how that is NOT 584,283 days for GMT correlation? It is 584,296

To get it correct it would be then May 19th, 2016 Gregorian it appears or 2,457,528 days from 01/01/4713 BC

And Sept. 6th, 3114 BC to May 19th, 2016 is 1,873,245 days

1,872,000 days plus 1245 days (adding in leap days) = 1,873,245 days

2,457,528 - 1,873,245 days = 584,283 which matches!

So all in all, it looks like the date is May 19th, 2016 (Gregorian date and not the Julian date), which is highly significant!

You can calculate it here:

www.fourmilab.ch...

Next I will explain why May 19th is so significant!

a reply to: neutrinostargate

A day is going to be defined by a solar year. A day is different in a Gregorian solar count, a Julian solar count, and a Mayan Haab.

A day is defined as 86 400 seconds in the international system of units SI.
How many such day units fitting into Gregorian, Julian or Mayan Haab is another question.

I believe that modern JDN count (or more precise NASA adjusted derivatives) using constant day length of 86400 seconds.

I found very extensive page of calculations from different Calendars in use to and from JDN aa.quae.nl...
It has also section about Mayan calendars. You wrote earlier that JDN using 365.25 solar year notation, please notice how they avoid decimal fractions.

a reply to: neutrinostargate

1,872,000 days plus 1245 days (adding in leap days) = 1,873,245 days

2,457,528 - 1,873,245 days = 584,283 which matches!

So all in all, it looks like the date is May 19th, 2016 (Gregorian date and not the Julian date), which is highly significant!

Ok, now you can celebrate 1,873,245 days as a very significant day.
I couldn't see what is so special in 1,872,000 days even if all those modern Mayanists did it correct starting from some obscure day in 3114 B.C. I can care less if it is 1,873,245 days.
I still disagree with your explanation that you need to add 1245 days, I would suspect that ancient Maya wouldn't understand why they need to add 1245 days according to some heathen Julian or Gregorian leap years. They probably counted days from
"dawn to dusk" ,so to speak, and when they reached freakin 1,872,000 days they would be very happy. Now you added more to the misery

What happened to Solyent? Anyone else care to chime in on this if they are following it?

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: neutrinostargate

A day is going to be defined by a solar year. A day is different in a Gregorian solar count, a Julian solar count, and a Mayan Haab.

A day is defined as 86 400 seconds in the international system of units SI.
How many such day units fitting into Gregorian, Julian or Mayan Haab is another question.

I believe that modern JDN count (or more precise NASA adjusted derivatives) using constant day length of 86400 seconds.

I found very extensive page of calculations from different Calendars in use to and from JDN aa.quae.nl...
It has also section about Mayan calendars. You wrote earlier that JDN using 365.25 solar year notation, please notice how they avoid decimal fractions.

Here, JDN used 365.25 solar days. End of story

"All these manipulations of the calendar create complex problems for historians. It might be enough to make them throw up their hands and say "Forget months and years, the only certainty is days!" Joseph Justus Scaliger (1540-1609), a French classical scholar, did just that in 1582, when he invented the Julian period, named after his father, Julius Caesar Scaliger. This was a period of 7,980 years, derived from the product of 28 times 19 times 15.

Why these numbers? Well, 28 refers to the number of years in the Julian calendar it takes for dates to fall again on the same days of the week, the so-called solar cycle. The figure 19 comes from the Metonic cycle of 19 years, devised by Meton of Athens in 432 BCE, although known in China as early as 2260 BCE. The basis of ancient Greek, Jewish, and other calendars, it shows the relationship between the lunar and solar year. In 19 years of exactly 365.25 days each (the Julian, or solar year), there are 235 lunar cycles, with seven of these years having a 13th, or embolistic, month. At the end of the cycle, the phases of the moon recur on a particular day in the solar year. The Metonic cycle was important because it established a lunar calendar having a definite rule for intercalary months, and didn't get out of phase with the cycle of tropical (seasonal) years.

Why was 4713 BCE used as the starting date for the Julian period? Scaliger chose 12:00 UT, 1 January of that year for Julian day 0.0 because it was the nearest past year when all three cycles, solar, Metonic, and indiction, exactly coincided. The present Julian period will end at 12:00 UT, 31 December 3267. "

www.magma.ca...

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: neutrinostargate

1,872,000 days plus 1245 days (adding in leap days) = 1,873,245 days

2,457,528 - 1,873,245 days = 584,283 which matches!

So all in all, it looks like the date is May 19th, 2016 (Gregorian date and not the Julian date), which is highly significant!

Ok, now you can celebrate 1,873,245 days as a very significant day.
I couldn't see what is so special in 1,872,000 days even if all those modern Mayanists did it correct starting from some obscure day in 3114 B.C. I can care less if it is 1,873,245 days.
I still disagree with your explanation that you need to add 1245 days, I would suspect that ancient Maya wouldn't understand why they need to add 1245 days according to some heathen Julian or Gregorian leap years. They probably counted days from
"dawn to dusk" ,so to speak, and when they reached freakin 1,872,000 days they would be very happy. Now you added more to the misery

Your still not getting it are you? Because the Gregorian and Julian add leap years into the equation, the Mayans actually knew this, they actually saw it as 365.25 days or 1 leap year every 4 years. Why did they see it as 365.25 days? Because they subtracted 13 days every 52 years.

So because they understood the 1 day every 4 years leap year to have the calendar try to match the solar year with the seasons, they actually subtracted 13 days every 52 years because they didn't want their calendar to add 1 day every 4 years or 13 days every 52 years. They didn't care about the seasons drifting with their solar year. Got that?

Hence the reason why we have to add in the leap days into the equations to find out true Mayan cyclical time, not freaking Gregorian or Julian calendar time.

a reply to: neutrinostargate

Here, JDN used 365.25 solar days. End of story

Again you are confusing JDN with Julian solar year.

Btw your source article is pretty good, as they wrote at the end "This simplified explanation omits many details of the calendars described above"

Now, you just need to realize that

Two years later Julius got knifed, but his calendar ticked along until 7 BCE, when it was interfered with during the reign of Augustus. The fifth month, Quintilis (the year started with the spring equinox, in Martius, or March), which had been renamed Julius (our July) after the deceased Caesar, had 31 days. Augustus, or the Roman Senate, wanted a month named after the emperor, so the next month, Sextilis, with 30 days, was changed to Augustus, and given the same number of days as Julius. The extra day was taken from the final month, Februarius. This alteration left three months together, July, August, and September each with 31 days, contrary to logical alternating 31/30-day months of Sosigenes. To remedy this, September and November lost their 31st days to October and December. That's why we have to remember "thirty days hath September ..."

To make matters worse, after Julius died, the leap year was being added every third, instead of every fourth, year. Augustus put a stop to this by eliminating leap years from about 5 BCE to 8 CE (A.D.).

only very proficient historians could manage all this mess to the best of their knowledge. The purpose of JDN is to have the most precise count of days from 1-st January 4173 B.C. They also took great care about other leap year days etc. So, you don't need to apply your simplified formula of x years/4.123 or whatever.
I have more faith in Scaliger and company that they did it better than you

a reply to: neutrinostargate

The problem is researchers threw out the Mayan Haab solar year, threw in the Gregorian solar year and arrived at 12/21/21 or 1,872,000 days later. That is 5125.36 years or 5125 years 132 days.

This is not a problem this is the right way to make calculation.

Your calculation going as 1,872,000/365 = 5128,767 or 5128 years 280 days is the number of Mayan Haab years.
But then you are applying this into our Gregorian or Julain calendar reference. This is wrong, you can't add apples with oranges and receive consistent results.

The right way is indeed 1,872,000/365.2425 = 5125.36 Gregorian years

Other method, you can take your Mayan Haab 5128 years but you will need a large correction downward. As in your LA article example it will indeed go somewhat 1245 days ahead of astronomical year. So, if you insist that you want to start your calculation with 5128 Mayan Haab years, in order to get right answer in the frame reference of Gregorian calendar you should subtract 1245 days. And you will receive 21/12/2012.
The date 2016 without this correction is purely Mayan Haab years and not real calendar which all modern world follows. You got it ?

What need to stay constant is the number 1,872,000 days.
So, again. The easier to understand method would be
1,872,000/365.2425 = 5125.36 Gregorian years.