Hollande Threatens to Suspend EU Nations with Right-Wing Government

a reply to: TrueBrit

Well don't expect us to take in these invaders then.

originally posted by: Helicopter
It's kinda like "do as we say or suffer consequences" and "it's only democracy if you agree with us".

No, it's exactly like saying if you don't abide by the rules of group you wanted to join for all the benefits of that group, you will be kicked out of that group.

Like it or not, nations joined the EU for the benefits of being part of that group, and they agreed to the laws and rules that come with it. You can't then complain when things get tough and you want to start moving the goalposts, especially not on something as important as this.

You negotiate, you work within the laws and rules YOU AGREED TO, or you f-off out of the group.

a reply to: DutchMasterChief

Just a quick question. Did your entire nation, from its parliament to its citizenship lobby the EU to prevent British involvement in war over the last twenty odd years? Did other European nations like France and Germany stay completely out of all of the fighting as well? Are there any Dutch forces who were deployed during the Second Gulf campaign, or in Afghanistan? More to the point, did the EU try and stop what they knew my government were up to even then? Did they petition the Americans to dissuade them from going ahead with their strategy during the Cold War with Russia?

The reason I ask these questions is that if nothing was done by the EU to prevent the last thirty to forty years of meddling in the Middle East, and if soldiers from other EU nations had any hand in the war on terror, then you can bet that regardless of how you would like to see it, your nation, and all EU nations have a certain responsibility to get to grips with. That does not take away from the stupidity of my own nation, but it ought to remind you how foolish it would be to admonish my nation, in exclusion of all others in the EU.

a reply to: TrueBrit

The middle east has been at logger heads for centuries, even within there own religious circles they cannot get on, trouble in the region is nothing new. granted what the west did by proxy was truly heinous but come on you can pick any country in the world and say that so and so did this and so this needs to be done..

The Philippines where under Spanish rule does that mean that every Filipino has a right to move to Spain now???. Of course not.

People are claiming "Asylum" and that should be claimed in the first safe country that you land, are you telling me what has happened in Sweden is fair and just for the average native???...

I will state again the very fact that there are admitted people from places such as Algeria, Marocco etc in this situations tells most people what they need to know. It has turned into a bandwagon..

I cannot see the average person saying that a true refugee should not have help and if you do think like that then feel ashamed but the whole world be it "third" world or not cannot and should not be allowed to claim refugee status without real proof of what their situation is. I then go onto a further point of how many of these migrants can we even ID???, hell we cannot even get a true Date of Birth or country of origin would it not be advantagous to the persons cause to have a ID from a war torn country if claiming Asylum???..



RA

originally posted by: slider1982
Well a lot of people are now classed as "far right" ever since this migrant madness started, it is now so socially unacceptable to say anything about a person of non European heritage regardless if you are stating a facts or not. People are frustrated and Governments if they have a ounce of savvy will follow suit, the goal posts are moving quickly..

People are really fed up, on a personal note it is now a flat 2 week wait to see my doctor due to how over subscribed the practice is and my location is a area of massive migrant population explosion, and do not get me started on the local school situation..

I really wish I could pick and choice what country to reside in, rather than proving I will not be a burden to the state and making sure I have a copius amount of money to fund myself, oh to also prove I have adequate education or skills in a certain field for long term employment and that is before doing all the real paperwork to gain my visas..

Yet Europe is expected to let people in that are not fleeing a war and are simply economic migrants (for the most part), what job will they do?, what can they offer the local population?, will they intergrate and how will they cope with not speaking the native language and will they be able to totally change their ways due to the cultural difference with the local population??...

These are all questions that are being asked and quite rightly so but then these questions now make you "right wing" a "Nazi" etc etc etc ,...



RA

Totally agree with your sentiments here across the board! The one thing that does stand out for me, however, is this:

If Europe would simply abandon Socialist Healthcare, you wouldn't have a 2-week wait problem. For only 2-3x the average cost per person, you could have wait times more like the US. Typically 4-6 weeks to get an appointment to see a doctor!

I think with the powers that be, history for them starts when they get elected, anything before that date just does not exist, so they don't know they are repeating it, just the same as those before, and those who come after, they don't even know the price of a loaf of bread!
When they leave their privileged school, and enter their privileged university, then on to a well paid NGO, before getting the party nomination for a privileged position in local/national government, they don't see real people, just 'people' they same as they are, they only learned policticalscience while in 'education', nothing else, and we are stupid enough to elect them!

You made some very valid points about how these things have worked out, and I agree with you on many of them. However, you also asked this:

originally posted by: slider1982
a reply to: TrueBrit

I then go onto a further point of how many of these migrants can we even ID???, hell we cannot even get a true Date of Birth or country of origin would it not be advantagous to the persons cause to have a ID from a war torn country if claiming Asylum???..

RA

Do I need to explain why this sort of thinking is invalid? First of all, those who have identification have had to escape the immediate vicinity, from their hometowns. Some of their houses will be rubble, under which lay some of their family members, and all of their possessions. Some will be occupied by one or another force, none of whom can be trusted not to shoot anything that moves in the area. Others will be in the middle of hot firefights which have lasted months on end. Standing about scratching ones head, looking for your documents is an unrealistic demand to make of someone in the middle of a shooting war.

I am sure many of those who have no paperwork would love to be able to prove their origins, that it might make the difference between a camp for another eighteen months, or a placement in a nation not given over to war, or right next door to one. You also have to remember that some of those who get people across borders actually take their passports, others get lost along the HUGE journey these people make across multiple borders to get where they are going. This is an exodus of biblical, nay, larger than biblical distance and scope, and again, assuming that people will be able to keep hold of their documents when running for their lives, struggling to survive is not realistic or fair.

Some of them do, but if you believe that warzones are the sort of places where one can make sure to keep up with their documentation, then that suggests that you really have not thought this through, that you have not imagined the situation they faced complexly enough to actually form an educated opinion on the matter, and I say that with the greatest possible respect. We all have our positions on this matter and we have a right to whatever opinion we want to have. But we also have a responsibility to understand what we are dealing with, and that requires a certain level of thoughtfulness. I understand it is hard to think of others when one feels that one is under assault in some way, but it might help everyone in this situation to use their imaginations a little bit, gain some insight into the realities of war, and the reality of escaping one.

originally posted by: DutchMasterChief
a reply to: TrueBrit

Well don't expect us to take in these invaders then.

twitter.com...

Welcome to Germany! Reisegenuss (pleasure of journey) assured.

The coat of civilisation might wear thin nowadays, but at least we've got a fat bunch of irony on top of it.

LEt hollande do as it will. SCrew the refugees and tell them go back home and fight for your selves.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I think I made it clear that my government supported this too. It's not like the people had a say in it.

Yes Dutch forces were in Iraq and Afghanistan and we have taken in quite some refugees from those countries over the years.

This current situation is something completely different.

We have always been willing to welcome real refugees in sustainable numbers but my people bear no responsibility for this free for all invasion.

It is especially annoying that you are preaching when you are not taking in any, although you carry more blame technically speaking.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

originally posted by: DutchMasterChief
a reply to: TrueBrit

Well don't expect us to take in these invaders then.

twitter.com...

Welcome to Germany! Reisegenuss (pleasure of journey) assured.

The coat of civilisation might wear thin nowadays, but at least we've got a fat bunch of irony on top of it.

What is your point with that Twitter qoute? What is uncivilised?

And what irony.

a reply to: Helicopter

Not European, but the EU can go to hell if they don't like what government the people chose. This is exactly the type of arrogance the ruling class is hated so much. They seem to be in denial of the fact they are a serious minority and therefor could be made irrelevant in short order. The people are well aware with the advent of the internet what people all over the globe feel and think. Their msm propaganda machine is not working anymore on a growing amount of people waking up to their plans and goals. I really believe they want a major war, whether revolution, civil war. regional war, or worse. The thing is the people need to remember who is causing these problems and have been throughout history.

We have serious differences in culture, ideology, and other issues. Force mixing the people will result in destruction. Apparently that is what they want. I wonder what actual social scientists actually think about what is happening and where it is going to end up? O realize many perhaps thought they could mix cultures and create an environment where wars between these groups will eventually disappear, but if it results in the disintegration of civility and society and all out wars which will bring out the ugliest of human deeds to the world then what is the point? The whole thing ticks me off. And I don't mean people running from war or whatever. But, the purposeful playing with fire by people like George Soros.

a reply to: DutchMasterChief

Well of course, it's important to realise that I, as a person, only carry as much blame as the rest of the percentage of the British public, who voted for parties other than those who are in power today. But I will grant you that my nations government should be doing far more to clean up after itself.

There has been poor decision after poor decision, and you would never catch me saying that our nation ought to be taking less migrants, refugees and asylum seekers as as result.

However, it is also worth pointing out, that we have a government for whom less than half, less than a third of those eligible to vote, actually voted for. I have certainly never voted Tory in my life, in any election, because I despise conservative politics and next to everything it stands for. Not what it claims to stand for, but what it actually stands for. It stands for the oppression of the poor, the destruction of public services and a total lack of respect for the will of the people.

If it was up to me, my nation would be doing an awful lot more. It would have sent the sort of infiltrators and saboteurs, killers and face crushers I mentioned earlier in thread to get rid of IS from every crevice Syria, Libya, and North Africa generally.

My nation would also be setting up secure locations to house, and proving vetting services to immigrants from abroad, before moving them on to places they can stay, or deporting them if their applications for asylum fail. However, my nation is not run by me, nor is it run according to my political beliefs, personal code of honour and ethics, or anything like it. Unfortunately, all I can do about any of that is to vote, and hope that next time around, fewer people vote for the idiots on the blue side of the house. That's all.

originally posted by: DutchMasterChief

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

originally posted by: DutchMasterChief
a reply to: TrueBrit

Well don't expect us to take in these invaders then.

twitter.com...

Welcome to Germany! Reisegenuss (pleasure of journey) assured.

The coat of civilisation might wear thin nowadays, but at least we've got a fat bunch of irony on top of it.

What is your point with that Twitter qoute? What is uncivilised?

And what irony.

I don't see the refugees enjoying their journey, thus 'Reisegenuss' is a rather ironic statement after all.

We're talking about the arrival of the first 25 refugees in a sad town somewhere in Saxony. An angry mob tries to take our democracy hostage while screaming "wir sind das Volk", which they are not. See some parallels to Poland and the EU?

I think it's pretty uncivilised when Westerners try to protect their luxurious livestyle with open scorn towards people, who fled from exactly those war torn regions we helped to destabilise. It's intellectually dishonest or straight bigotry at best, TrueBrit wrote quite a bit regarding the rat tails in this complex topic and I agree with him completely.

a reply to: TrueBrit

However, it is also worth pointing out, that we have a government for whom less than half, less than a third of those eligible to vote, actually voted for. I have certainly never voted Tory in my life, in any election, because I despise conservative politics and next to everything it stands for. Not what it claims to stand for, but what it actually stands for. It stands for the oppression of the poor, the destruction of public services and a total lack of respect for the will of the people.

I see, when talking about your guilt you can use arguments like this yet you have no problem placing blame on me and other Europeans when saying stuff like this,

Just a quick question. Did your entire nation, from its parliament to its citizenship lobby the EU to prevent British involvement in war over the last twenty odd years? Did other European nations like France and Germany stay completely out of all of the fighting as well? Are there any Dutch forces who were deployed during the Second Gulf campaign, or in Afghanistan? More to the point, did the EU try and stop what they knew my government were up to even then? Did they petition the Americans to dissuade them from going ahead with their strategy during the Cold War with Russia?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

I don't see the refugees enjoying their journey, thus 'Reisegenuss' is a rather ironic statement after all.

It was obviously a statement made by someone supporting the refugees, so I don't see why you are pointin g out any irony here.

Are you sure you didn't mean something else initially?

I think it's pretty uncivilised when Westerners try to protect their luxurious livestyle with open scorn towards people, who fled from exactly those war torn regions we helped to destabilise. It's intellectually dishonest or straight bigotry at best, TrueBrit wrote quite a bit regarding the rat tails in this complex topic and I agree with him completely.

This is all based on the idiotic notion that the people are directly repsonsible for their governments actions when they basically do whatever they want, and it takes a lot of time for people to be able to react to it.

How was it established(if it even was) that these people fled from a warzone that even remotely had something to do with Germany's actions, making these Germans responsible.


Why did you even link to a German article in a reply to that post of mine.

Did you think that Dutch is the same as Deutsch? Is that why you said that my post about invaders was ironic?

a reply to: Helicopter

Lol. Hollande wants refugees to be free to travel anywhere they want in hopes they will leave his country.
Read between the lines. Same with Germany. They want to provide an easy and legal way for them to leave. Pfft.

We must keep Syrian refugees. The others need to go and nobody has the guts to send them back.

That is all.

a reply to: DutchMasterChief

What I was trying to point out to you, is that every nation in Europe, every leader in Europe, as well as every state in the United States of America and their leaders, and the leadership of Russia too, have a responsibility to the areas that their actions or lack thereof, destabilise. We must accept that our proxy wars, all of the western powers, have had roles to play, in creating the circumstances we see today.

We must never turn our faces from what we have wrought, nor from the consequences. To do so would be entirely improper on all our parts. This is why I seek a left leaning government instead of a conservative one, because I know the Conservative party in my country to be entirely incapable of, and unwilling to take on the responsibility we have, and doing right by the people whose suffering we have added to or caused.

I am doing my bit, and will continue to do so.

a reply to: Helicopter

This is certainly interesting and it doesn't suprise me that Hollande in particular feels this way but how would he actually go about getting them suspended? From what i understand, if any EU nations supported Poland (for example, as per the links), then Hollande could moan but do nothing - it is only if all members agree they need suspending that this could happen.

That being the case, this is all hot air and wouldn't actually happen.

originally posted by: DutchMasterChief

It is especially annoying that you are preaching when you are not taking in any, although you carry more blame technically speaking.

It is the God-given right of every British gentleman to know, in their heart, that not only is Britain responsible for building the civilised world and dragging Europe kicking and screaming into the industrial age, but we have stood firm against every threat and held a torch against the blackest night, time and time again, when all others in Europe have faltered.

We have bought and paid for the right to preach. I fully intend to use it.

Edit to add: as rightly pointed out, special mention goes to the Polish for oustanding character and courage.