Problem for Christians and Muslims who believe in the Virgin birth of Christ

a reply to: vethumanbeing


I guess it's kind of like when a person speaks Chinese, and English-speakers hear yelling (even though that's not what they're doing - it's just their language).

Or, conversely,
when an English-speaker is talking to someone who doesn't speak English, and just gets LOUDER (even though the hearer is not hard of hearing) expecting them to understand.

Kinda like that. Probably off topic there, but, just crossed my mind when I checked back in with the thread.

G'nite all.

originally posted by: IsidoreOfSeville
a reply to: joelr

Hi Joelr, that was a lot to read and digest. I immediately thought of an article I'd read earlier when I was going through all that.

Here's a small quote from the article:

Second, all the major doctrines of the Christian faith can be seen to have pagan antecedents. A Protestant may say that veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary hearkens back to pagan goddess worship, but the Virgin Birth (which he will affirm) also has multiple echoes in the myths of the pagan religions.

He sees as pagan belief in purgatory or prayers for the dead, but he believes in the Incarnation—and pagan religions abound in stories of god-men coming down to be born on earth. Does he believe in the Resurrection? Does he celebrate it at Easter? How does he fit that in with all the pagan myths of the dying and rising god who was worshiped annually at the springtime of the year? Does he believe in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? The Ascension? Does he practice baptism? The Lord’s Supper? All of these beliefs and practices have parallels in paganism. You can’t blame Catholics for being pagan in some beliefs and practices while happily endorsing beliefs that might just as readily have their origins in paganism. If Catholic doctrine and devotions are pagan, then Protestantism’s must be too.

This is the crunch of the argument. There are links between paganism and Christianity. That is natural because the Church was born in a particular culture, and that culture was bound to have some influence on it. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with this interaction. From the very beginning it was considered to be good missionary method: Find what connects with the Christian story in the culture you are preaching to and make the connection. Build on that and use it to share the Christian gospel through images and concepts with which they are familiar. This is precisely what we see taking place in the New Testament. In Acts 17, St. Paul preaches in Athens and sees an altar to an “unknown god.” He picks up on this idea and uses it to preach the gospel.

Written by the Oxford educated, Fr. Dwight Longenecker

His article can be found here. It is aimed at non-Catholic Christians, but I think it gets to gist of what you're talking about.

Cheers.

That's not a very good article. The author is stating assumptions without one single reference or source. He's trying to play down the actual truth, which he probably doesn't know. He's calling other myths "pagan" as a blanket term so right off he's not showing much knowledge of these cultures.

D.M. Murdock is an anthropologist and Egyptologist and all of her work is sourced. In fact you can even go to her site and speak with her on her forum. She welcomes all debates.

"Whatever we make of the original myth…Isis seems to have been originally a virgin (or, perhaps, sexless) goddess, and in the later period of Egyptian religion she was again considered a virgin goddess, demanding very strict abstinence from her devotees. It is at this period, apparently, that the birthday of Horus was annually celebrated, about December 25th, in the temples. As both Macrobius and the Christian writer [of the "Paschal Chronicle"] say, a figure of Horus as a baby was laid in a manger, in a scenic reconstruction of a stable, and a statue of Isis was placed beside it. Horus was, in a sense, the Savior of mankind. He was their avenger against the powers of darkness; he was the light of the world. His birth-festival was a real Christmas before Christ.

From www.truthbeknown.com...

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: vethumanbeing

BuzzyWigs: I guess it's kind of like when a person speaks Chinese, and English-speakers hear yelling (even though that's not what they're doing - it's just their language).Or, conversely,
when an English-speaker is talking to someone who doesn't speak English, and just gets LOUDER (even though the hearer is not hard of hearing) expecting them to understand.

Perhaps its the enunciation. German sounds harsh to my ears; someone told me English was an ugly sounding gutteral language; WHAT!! Not nearly as musical as French or Spanish I suppose (they never heard French Canadian spoken). The information is out there; I know it, you know it. Perhaps its just a "hard of hearing" problem? I wanted to thank you for inserting yourself into the Chuckle Hut Comedy Club; having three members only: we of the understanding Jesus and John the Baptist were Essene's (that would be you, myself and Akragon) VIP's.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Nice!!! Thanks mucho. windword also knows it. So, we are four......


All we can do is keep putting the information out there. And hope people will eventually be receptive.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Nice!!! Thanks mucho. windword also knows it. So, we are four......

All we can do is keep putting the information out there. And hope people will eventually be receptive.

Windword as well? That is outstanding. Four VIP's (the velvet ropes bypassed). I am not done with this; I can put this idea forward and defend it; it is important Christians know there were three factions/ideas (cults) of Judaism and the one Jesus actually belonged to (could be fun).

a reply to: vethumanbeing

How can anyone argue with a Gnostic?

Successfully? Well, they can't.
But they try anyway.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: vethumanbeing

How can anyone argue with a Gnostic?

Successfully? Well, they can't.
But they try anyway.

I have not failed yet; as humor (combined with a Yogi Bear knowledge of the subject) is the key to deflating any negative argument.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I'm Muslim too, because of what you speak regarding scripture. If you eliminate the pauline epistles, you have a good idea of the man Jesus, virgin birth or not. I actually converted because Christianity is just so off point. I believe the Qur'an was sent to re-simplify God and the message of Jesus, as it had been corrupted by Saulus.

I couldn't care less if Jesus was born of a virgin as he was a human and not God, but I like to think that it is allegorical with a hiidden meaning and not literal.

Salaam brother.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Hi Vet,

I saw this article today on my Facebook newsfeed about famous documentaries that turned out to be garbage. One of them was the famous Religulous.

Here's a quote from that article:

All this "Jesus was copied from earlier religions" stuff has been going around the Internet for a while, and it will make you look awesome if you post it on a Halo message board, but none of it is true. The Egyptian links have been debunked by actual Egyptologists.

Take it for what it is.

The Religulous bit is found at the bottom here. It's got links to show their academic sources.

Food for though, if nothing else.

a reply to: IsidoreOfSeville
Thanks for link Isidore; (Cracked.com). Perhaps "Religious" was supposed to be of ironic entertainment value only, exposing Christians to that lying church of theirs (that Bill Maher is a crackup; a born theologian). Maybe with his next project he will debunk Monty Pythons satirical comedy romp: "In Search of the Holy Grail". I question the virgin birth is all; samo samo story for many deities; Jesus is not regarded as deity. Thanks for the reply!

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Matthew 1. says the genealogy of Jesus from David to Joseph (husband of Mary), in order to prove that Jesus came from "the house of David" in accordance with Messianic tradition. The generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham goes on to name 14 generations from Abraham to David (babylon and yet another fourteen generations until the birth of Jesus).
Matthew never wrote about a 'virgin birth'; he assumed the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph then David and Abraham to be true. Matthew believed Jesus was the Jewish messiah; Mary was not a factor (why would she be); this was a patriarchal society, not matriarchal otherwise would be hearing from Abraham or Davids wives.

Yeah, how do Christians even get around the whole genealogy aspects of Jesus coming from David etc… if they also accept the virgin birth…go figure…

The Ebionite's (a Christian Jewish sect)… had an identical book of Matthew, which apparently had the virgin birth removed from it’s pages…guess what happened to those guys…the RCC wiped most of them out…

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
I wanted to thank you for inserting yourself into the Chuckle Hut Comedy Club; having three members only: we of the understanding Jesus and John the Baptist were Essene's (that would be you, myself and Akragon) VIP's.

Three members only huh...hahahah…?

I seem to remember “being there lol” when the “Chuckle Hut Comedy Café Club” was founded…

I also understand that Jesus and John were Essene’s…Hopefully that knowledge will help get me back into the club….

Other than that…what do forest rangers do to “get away from it all”…lol ?


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: vethumanbeing

Joecroft: Yeah, how do Christians even get around the whole genealogy aspects of Jesus coming from David etc… if they also accept the virgin birth…go figure…The Ebionite's (a Christian Jewish sect)… had an identical book of Matthew, which apparently had the virgin birth removed from it’s pages…guess what happened to those guys…the RCC wiped most of them out…

Its a pagan belief the Catholics re-interpreted and inserted upon the MAN Jesus (now compared to a Mythical Deity) to quell the unwashed masses.

vhb in response to BuzzyWigs:I wanted to thank you for inserting yourself into the Chuckle Hut Comedy Club; having three members only: we of the understanding Jesus and John the Baptist were Essene's (that would be you, myself and Akragon) VIP's.

Joecroft: Three members only huh...hahahah…?
I seem to remember “being there lol” when the “Chuckle Hut Comedy Café Club” was founded…
I also understand that Jesus and John were Essene’s…Hopefully that knowledge will help get me back into the club.

You are a charter member (late on your dues).

Joecroft: Other than that…what do forest rangers do to “get away from it all”…lol ?

They steal Yogi's and Boo-Boos picnic baskets and feast on the information in the dark in the forest under tents using flashlights.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Its a pagan belief the Catholics re-interpreted and inserted upon the MAN Jesus (now compared to a Mythical Deity) to quell the unwashed masses.

Well, there were clearly many competing versions of Christianity in the early parts of the first century. It makes perfect sense for Rome to incorporate certain pagan elements into the story, so that the masses could recognise and relate too the story more easily…

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
You are a charter member (late on your dues).

“Charter Member”, Thanks, but I can’t take all the credit, you played your part too…

”late on dues”…

It’s because of all the recent cutbacks, and due to the fact that the light at the end of the tunnel, has been temporarily switched off…lol not my fault…

Originally posted by Joecroft
Other than that…what do forest rangers do to “get away from it all”…lol ?

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
They steal Yogi's and Boo-Boos picnic baskets and feast on the information in the dark in the forest under tents using flashlights.

Wow!!! Only someone with “Yogi Bear knowledge lol” could ever get that question correct…well done…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft
Many competing in the first 100 years certainly; all esoteric (that too magical) was thought of as 'arcane' books were disavowed. Rome won finally with Constantine in 300AD. The Arcane thoughts are the most interesting to me; this would include what would be called of a Gnostic or similar Hindu system of thought regarding how the Cosmos works/its laws and the human as its expression. Waz up? Who kidnapped you?

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Many competing in the first 100 years certainly; all esoteric (that too magical) was thought of as 'arcane' books were disavowed. Rome won finally with Constantine in 300AD. The Arcane thoughts are the most interesting to me; this would include what would be called of a Gnostic or similar Hindu system of thought regarding how the Cosmos works/its laws and the human as its expression.

Actually, speaking of esoteric, I often wonder if the “virgin birth” is really just a secret esoteric term/teaching, that somehow got misunderstood somewhere down the line etc…

For example, believers are said to be the “brides of Christ”…as in Revelations: 22 verse 17

Revelations: 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

The verse above sounds a lot like being birthed into the Spirit IMO. The Spirit of the Father comes into a person, birthing them into the Spirit. Symbolically speaking, the Father (Spirit) gives birth to the Sons (Spirit) which is kind of like an immaculate conception…A kind of “virgin birth”, where the Spirit of Son is born/awakened…i.e. immaculately conceived etc…

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Waz up? Who kidnapped you?

LOL

I was kidnapped by the Mormons lol…(could happen to anybody lol)...tuff debate…but interesting in terms of the Masonic connections…temple rights etc…

But there were just way too many discrepancies and inconsistencies, in relation to J. Smiths beliefs through the passage of time…IMO…Not too mention the fact, of there being no historical evidence outside that of the BOM, plus no archaeological evidence either…

- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: vethumanbeing

vhb:
Many competing in the first 100 years certainly; all esoteric (that too magical) was thought of as 'arcane' books were disavowed. Rome won finally with Constantine in 300AD. The Arcane thoughts are the most interesting to me; this would include what would be called of a Gnostic or similar Hindu system of thought regarding how the Cosmos works/its laws and the human as its expression.

Joecroft: Actually, speaking of esoteric, I often wonder if the “virgin birth” is really just a secret esoteric term/teaching, that somehow got misunderstood somewhere down the line etc…For example, believers are said to be the “brides of Christ”…as in Revelations: 22 verse 17

OH?! you realize where I would go with this idea; Freemasons, Templar Knights if I were so inclined. We need to explain the "Chuckle Hut Cafe". It is a venue where Demi-Gods and Martyrs can perform a stand-up comedy routine before a live human audience armed with tomatos and rotten eggs.

Joecroft: Revelations: 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

This is metaphorical. Who is the spirit and who is exactly the bride. I have a problem with how the Absolute and Infinity resolve each other (THEY FIGHT). One is Absolute (LAW; this is it) Infinity says; no I am neither the beginning or the end "I am in constant motion and can continually create new things". Intended jealousy/Chaos.

Joecroft: The verse above sounds a lot like being birthed into the Spirit IMO. The Spirit of the Father comes into a person, birthing them into the Spirit. Symbolically speaking, the Father (Spirit) gives birth to the Sons (Spirit) which is kind of like an immaculate conception…A kind of “virgin birth”, where the Spirit of Son is born/awakened…i.e. immaculately conceived etc…

My idea/take on this is that Jesus was born with no prior Karma; a perfect being not corrupted by prior existences (not one of the Karmic wheel process). A fully 9D being absolutely pure that is/was attempting to overlay the thought of Christ Consciousness: the ability to connect to a higher being/creator (even if that being is yourself as a higher awareness stepped down as Jesus was).

JC: I was kidnapped by the Mormons lol…(could happen to anybody lol)...tuff debate…but interesting in terms of the Masonic connections…temple rights etc…But there were just way too many discrepancies and inconsistencies, in relation to J. Smiths beliefs through the passage of time…IMO…Not too mention the fact, of there being no historical evidence outside that of the BOM, plus no archaeological evidence

Could have been worse, a Scientologist or Lemming abduction; either way a cliff is in the picture.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
OH?! you realize where I would go with this idea; Freemasons, Templar Knights if I were so inclined. We need to explain the "Chuckle Hut Cafe". It is a venue where Demi-Gods and Martyrs can do a stand-up comedy routine before a live human audience.

I could go on first, just to warm up the crowd for ya…anyway, doesn’t the "Chuckle Hut Cafe"…kind of explain itself lol

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
This is metaphorical. Who is the spirit and who is exactly the bride. I have a problem with how the Absolute and Infinity resolve each other (THEY FIGHT). One is Absolute (LAW; this is it) Infinity says; no I am neither the beginning or the end "I am in constant motion and can continually create new things".

Wait; you mean the Absolute and Infinity are two separate/individual things/entities…? How does that work…or not work…as the case may be…

You’re pretty close to the truth here though…When the Alpha and Omega or the ALL, connects with a finite being/experience, the flow, the water of life, is what gets experienced by the individual…the experience is what is happening in-between the Alpha and Omega, i.e. the experience of the Now!!!

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
My idea/take on this is that Jesus was born with no prior Karma; a perfect being not corrupted by prior existences (not one of the Karmic wheel process). A fully 9D being absolutely pure that is/was attempting to overlay the thought of Christ Consciousness: the ability to connect to a higher being/creator (even if that being is yourself).

Normally when you make those type of posts above, people on Ats tend to completely disappear from the thread (never to return)…it’s almost comical…I think I’ll stick around as a science experiment, just to see what happens next lol

Why 9d though…? Why not 11d or 5d or even 8d…

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Could have been worse, a Scientologist or Lemming abduction.

Well, I’ve already had the Mormons, the Jehovah witnesses, so I guess the
Scientologist will no doubt be next…As for the “Lemming abduction”, I’ve no idea what that is, unless you mean “innnnncoming”…and “oh no”…lol


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: vethumanbeing

vhb: This is metaphorical. Who is the spirit and who is exactly the bride. I have a problem with how the Absolute and Infinity resolve each other (THEY FIGHT). One is Absolute (LAW; this is it) Infinity says; no I am neither the beginning or the end "I am in constant motion and can continually create new things".

Joecroft: Wait; you mean the Absolute and Infinity are two separate/individual things/entities…? How does that work…or not work…as the case may be.

Bald headed stepchildren at odds with each other? One says this "I am the Absolute Law" the other says "I am Infinite" in what I can create (above the law of the absolute). They are at war. One is conservative the other a liberal.

Joecroft: You’re pretty close to the truth here though…When the Alpha and Omega or the ALL, connects with a finite being/experience, the flow, the water of life, is what gets experienced by the individual…the experience is what is happening in-between the Alpha and Omega, i.e. the experience of the Now!!!

The struggle is over the finite; one wants it to remain as is the other wants to manipulate it.

vhb:
My idea/take on this is that Jesus was born with no prior Karma; a perfect being not corrupted by prior existences (not one of the Karmic wheel process). A fully 9D being absolutely pure that is/was attempting to overlay the thought of Christ Consciousness: the ability to connect to a higher being/creator (even if that being is yourself).

Joecroft: Normally when you make those type of posts above, people on Ats tend to completely disappear from the thread (never to return)…it’s almost comical…I think I’ll stick around as a science experiment, just to see what happens next lol Why 9d though…? Why not 11d or 5d or even 8d…

This is the RFT forum. I would imagine can make those statements without frightening anyone.

vhb:
Could have been worse, a Scientologist or Lemming abduction.

Joecroft: Well, I’ve already had the Mormons, the Jehovah witnesses, so I guess the
Scientologist will no doubt be next…As for the “Lemming abduction”, I’ve no idea what that is, unless you mean “innnnncoming”…and “oh no”…

Lemmings are small rodents that follow each other off a cliff to cull? their population.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Bald headed stepchildren at odds with each other? One says this "I am the Absolute Law" the other says "I am Infinite" in what I can create (above the law of the absolute). They are at war. One is conservative the other a liberal.

Is the bald headed stepchild an immaculate conception…just trying to stay on topic…

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
The struggle is over the finite; one wants it to remain as is the other wants to manipulate it.

Yes, it’s clearly a big dilemma…

Some guy wrote this The True Wisdom of God

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
This is the RFT forum. I would imagine can make those statements without frightening anyone.

I don’t think it’s fear, but more a case of bamboozlement and bewilderment…a conundrum of, do I approach this creature/entity/unknown or keep my distance…

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Lemmings are small rodents that follow each other off a cliff to cull? their population.

Your Yogi bear knowledge is great, but you need to upgrade your lemming knowledge…because the whole culling/suicide thing, is a myth; a common misconception based on a very old documentary named the “white wilderness”…where they apparently forced the lemmings of a cliff…just to win an academy award…diisssshhhhtttthsssspicable lol


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: vethumanbeing

vhb:
Bald headed stepchildren at odds with each other? One says this "I am the Absolute Law" the other says "I am Infinite" in what I can create (above the law of the absolute). They are at war. One is conservative the other a liberal.

Joecroft: Is the bald headed stepchild an immaculate conception…just trying to stay on topic…

Only for Gods and Demi-Gods; neither of which was Jesus.

Joecroft: Some guy wrote this The True Wisdom of God

Could this be you I don't see a link but will get to the bottom of it.

vhb:
This is the RFT forum. I would imagine can make those statements without frightening anyone.

Joecroft: I don’t think it’s fear, but more a case of bamboozlement and bewilderment…a conundrum of, do I approach this creature/entity/unknown or keep my distance.

Yes, the idea of God or its potential wrath/humor could be frightening (unless you know its true nature-is a heroin addict).

vhb:
Lemmings are small rodents that follow each other off a cliff to cull? their population.

Joecroft: Your Yogi bear knowledge is great, but you need to upgrade your lemming knowledge…because the whole culling/suicide thing, is a myth; a common misconception based on a very old documentary named the “white wilderness”…where they apparently forced the lemmings of a cliff…just to win an academy award…diisssshhhhtttthsssspicable lol - JC

This was Walt Disney production shown on "The Wonderful World of Walt Disney" a Sunday night "family event" at 6:00 pm (only aired in Kansas). You are saying those Lemmings were trained to commit suicide; (oh; had to have been a net underneath to catch and retrieve) to then release later in Chicago as alley rats.