Problem for Christians and Muslims who believe in the Virgin birth of Christ

Basically both religions have it mentioned in their books, but it's all based on a prophecy in the O.T. (Isiah 7:14) that had nothing to do with Jesus. But the writers of the new testament used it to justify a half man, half god (long history of those throughout the history of world's religions; do a google search on virgin births) as being a part of God's plan. The Muslims just copied the concept from the Christians (probably to gain more Christian converts).

In my opinion, if the Christians and Muslims got this wrong then this creates a big problem for both religions.

Check out the link if you'd like a better and more in depth explanation of what I'm getting at. Like I said this is my opinion and the conclusion that I've come to so I am open to all opinions and feedback. Peace

The prophecy about the Virgin

a reply to: tiidoc
The original purpose of the prophecy was to meet the immediate need of Ahaz and a kingdom under siege.
The words were then adapted by Matthew.
Discussed in this thread;
A child is born- called Immanuel, eating curds and honey

Since Luke has the same understanding of the conception of Jesus, and doesn't base it on the prophecy, I would premise that belief in the virgin birth came first, and the words of Isaiah were (at least in Matthew) adapted to it later.

a reply to: tiidoc

There are many accounts of females claiming to have fallen pregnant without any sexual intercourse but instead claim alien abduction and/or accounts of interactions with aliens and ongoing fetal manipulation.

The similarities between their accounts and that of the virgin birth story in the bible have certainly not gone unnoticed my me anyway.

originally posted by: tiidoc
Basically both religions have it mentioned in their books, but it's all based on a prophecy in the O.T. (Isiah 7:14) that had nothing to do with Jesus. But the writers of the new testament used it to justify a half man, half god (long history of those throughout the history of world's religions; do a google search on virgin births) as being a part of God's plan. The Muslims just copied the concept from the Christians (probably to gain more Christian converts).

In my opinion, if the Christians and Muslims got this wrong then this creates a big problem for both religions.

Check out the link if you'd like a better and more in depth explanation of what I'm getting at. Like I said this is my opinion and the conclusion that I've come to so I am open to all opinions and feedback. Peace

The prophecy about the Virgin

Your confusion comes from the fact that you're viewing a Jewish prophecy through Gentile eyes.
Gentiles view prophecy as "prediction ----> fulfilment".
Jews do not.
Jewish prophecy is pattern.

You'll find this repeatedly throughout the Bible - prophecies fulfilled in a cyclical manner.
In the same way, Matthew 24's prophecy about the Last Days talks about key signs to expect before the Lord's return. These signs are usually interpreted as being general, but they're also present in Revelation 6 specifically. You'll find them repeated again in Luke 21, but in Luke the prophecy is regarding the destruction of the temple in 70AD, and the perspective is the opposite of Matthews.

Jewish prophecy is cyclical.

It's also worth noting that Jesus Himself outlined the purpose of prophecy. It's not primarily predictive, but rather, as He said, "I have told you now before it happens, so that when these things occur, you might believe" (John 14:29).

This is the point of prophecy: not that you should necessarily understand it all in advance, but that when it occurs, you might see and understand that the God who makes the end known from the beginning is both King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

a reply to: Awen24

I've never heard of the Jews having an angle on the way they view prophecy. Interesting.

I've also never read or found evidence that the Jews took the verse in Isiah to be a verse about the Messiah.

What you're saying is akin to the double prophecy idea that was mention in the link I posted.
Anything can be justified with enough justification but it just seems you're trying to hard my friend.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

That's kind of like the Nephilim accounts we hear about. It's tricky and time consuming to even wrap your mind around it. Why can't it just be clear for us to understand

a reply to: tiidoc

I'm a Muslim. Our belief in the Virgin birth has absolutely nothing to do with the Old Testament, much less the "prophecy" you mentioned. No offense, but if you're going to make blanket statements about Islam, at least go read the Qur'an before you do it. For example, here's what the Qur'an actually says about this.

Qur'an, Surah 3, Aal-/Ali-Imran (The Family of Imran), Pickthall translation

42. And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.

43. O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship).

44. This is of the tidings of things hidden. We reveal it unto thee (Muhammad). Thou wast not present with them when they threw their pens (to know) which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor wast thou present with them when they quarrelled (thereupon).

45. (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

46. He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.

47. She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me ? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

48. And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,

49. And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.

And in another Surah called "The Prophets", there's a part where different prophets are mentioned. It makes references to Dhu'n-Nun (the Prophet Jonah), then the Prophet Zachariah, and then a certain chaste woman who had the Spirit breathed into her, making herself and her future son tokens for all people. Hmmm, wonder who that can be about?

Qur'an, Surah 21, Al-Anbya (The Prophets), Pickthall translation

87. And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou Glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.

88. Then we heard his prayer and saved him from the anguish. Thus we save believers.

89. And Zachariah, when he cried unto his Lord: My Lord! Leave me not childless, though Thou art the Best of inheritors.

90. Then We heard his prayer, and bestowed upon him John, and adjusted his wife (to bear a child) for him. Lo! they used to vie one with the other in good deeds, and they cried unto Us in longing and in fear, and were submissive unto Us.

91. And she who was chaste, therefor We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples.

And these are just 2 examples. So no, Islam doesn't believe in the Virgin birth because of the Old Testament, the prophecy you mentioned, or any possible misunderstandings or copying of concepts from others. We believe in it because God says it directly in the Qur'an.

a reply to: enlightenedservant


I know what you mean. The bottom line is that the Islamic belief in this is based on the Christian one, which is based on a prophecy that has nothing to do with the virgin birth in the 1st place.

originally posted by: tiidoc
a reply to: enlightenedservant


I know what you mean. The bottom line is that the Islamic belief in this is based on the Christian one, which is based on a prophecy that has nothing to do with the virgin birth in the 1st place.

But that's not correct. The Islamic belief is based in the Qur'an. We revere the Prophet Essa/Jesus as one of our 4 most revered Prophets because he was one of the Prophets that God revealed a Holy Book to (along with the Prophets Moses, David, and Muhammad). We believe these Holy Books are the direct word of God, though we believe the Zabur/Psalms and Tawrat/Torah have been altered over time and Essa/Jesus's Injeel/Gospel doesn't exist anymore.

So no, our belief in the virgin birth isn't because of the Christian view or the Israelite prophecy. Our belief in it is because of God's direct teachings, regardless of what anyone else believes, understands, or interprets. That's why I pointed out examples from the Qur'an itself. In Islamic teachings, nothing overrules the Qur'an because the Qur'an is the direct word of God.

originally posted by: tiidoc
a reply to: enlightenedservant


I know what you mean. The bottom line is that the Islamic belief in this is based on the Christian one, which is based on a prophecy that has nothing to do with the virgin birth in the 1st place.

Regarding the birth of Jesus; this idea was to explain a being born without Karma stickiness (was not born of Gabriel) was born of both a human mother and father. This idea of virgin birth was always meant to be metaphorical. Where does this idea spring from?

a reply to: tiidoc

Basically both religions have it mentioned in their books, but it's all based on a prophecy in the O.T.

There's actually a little more to it than the prophecy in Isaiah. There are two accounts attributed to the Apostles James and Matthew of not just Jesus' virgin conception, but also Mary's virgin conception:

The Gospel of the Birth of Mary
The Protevangelion

There are also ancient Ethiopian manuscripts, translated and publicly available, Mary the Perpetual Virgin and her Mother Hannah.

As I understand it, the term "immaculate conception" actually refers to Mary's virgin conception -- not Jesus. I am not presenting these accounts as fact or truth in terms of subject matter; I'm simply providing additional early sources for the claims.

If you are interested, there is an index (with links) of other "lost" or "forbidden" books of the Bible here.

Yeshua HaMashiach was born from a virgin and was NOT a prophet,He was God
in flesh!

Half man half God was your first mistake, it all went downhill after
It's a faith thing

You do or you don't

I do

I'm pretty sure the whole virgin thing is a mistranslation.

I remember reading years ago that the original meaning was that mary was a "young girl", nothing about virgin mentioned any where.

I would have to re-research it, but I am pretty sure I am correct.

a reply to: Nexttimemaybe

That would have no effect whatsoever on Islam's belief in the Virgin birth. My post in this thread explains that.

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe
I'm pretty sure the whole virgin thing is a mistranslation.
I remember reading years ago that the original meaning was that mary was a "young girl", nothing about virgin mentioned any where.I would have to re-research it, but I am pretty sure I am correct.

Son of David son of Abraham (this is Joseph's) bloodline. If Joseph were not the physical father of Jesus what is point of explaining a bloodline; and Matthew never speaking of a virgin birth? Where does prophesy enter? "A miraculous birth", this has no reference to Jesus but an manufactured narrative to support the writer of Matthew.

I think the main problem both religions face is that all religion is derived from systems of control devised by scholars and criminals who sought to control the uneducated and illiterate through fear and lies. Initially just to steal land and property but gradually branching out into slavery, prostitution and justification for tribal warfare.

The problem is this. Why have we put up with this crap from a large percentage of the population for centuries?

You trying to say only one book can be right? and this creates a problem? lol

No #.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: tiidoc
a reply to: enlightenedservant


I know what you mean. The bottom line is that the Islamic belief in this is based on the Christian one, which is based on a prophecy that has nothing to do with the virgin birth in the 1st place.

But that's not correct. The Islamic belief is based in the Qur'an. We revere the Prophet Essa/Jesus as one of our 4 most revered Prophets because he was one of the Prophets that God revealed a Holy Book to (along with the Prophets Moses, David, and Muhammad). We believe these Holy Books are the direct word of God, though we believe the Zabur/Psalms and Tawrat/Torah have been altered over time and Essa/Jesus's Injeel/Gospel doesn't exist anymore.

So no, our belief in the virgin birth isn't because of the Christian view or the Israelite prophecy. Our belief in it is because of God's direct teachings, regardless of what anyone else believes, understands, or interprets. That's why I pointed out examples from the Qur'an itself. In Islamic teachings, nothing overrules the Qur'an because the Qur'an is the direct word of God.

If the Koran is supposed to confirm the scripture that came before it, then what the scripture it's confirming says does matter. From your perspective the previous scripture does not matter. But even the Koran says it does.

How do you feel about the multitude of virgin births prior to Islam (mostly religious in nataure). Doesnt that seem more than just coincidental?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Half man half God was your first mistake, it all went downhill after
It's a faith thing

You do or you don't

I do

the half man, half god part of my discussion was to explain why the virgin birth was even used as part of Jesus' story. That's what the gentiles knew back then. I mean just look at Greek mythology and what most of the people that Christianity was spread to believed in at that time. So many cases of a "god" getting with a virgin and the result being a super human hybrid.

Why would the truth for all of mankind imitate mythology that we now all know was just a primitive understanding that people had about what was going on with god?

a reply to: Boadicea

Never heard of that concept before. Interesting. I'll give it a read. Thanks