Donald Trump: I'd bring back 'a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding'

a reply to: crazyewok

So, are the rainbow unicorns that will get the information from the bad guys ready or is waterboarding still ok?

Give them some MDMA and talk to them. You could get all you needed in about 45 minutes. Might even get their ipod playlist....

a reply to: matafuchs

I think they do that already, no joke.

I know it's not trendy, but I agree with burdman.

CAN rough interrogation work, yes.

Is it always the best route for each person, no.

Is it a really useful primary intel source, no.

There's a lot of folks posting that are saying "I could get someone to say anything/confess to being Justin Bieber, therefore it's pointless".

True, if you've got a situation where you're totally in the dark, and you are hoping to get really first class info that way, it's not the way to start out.

But, if you are trying to clear up specific points and the person you've got is likely to have that info, you can sure use field expedient interrogation to add to the pot. The trick is to either have a lot of people that have the info and average it, or to have ways to corroborate or disprove what you're getting. Also, you never have proven absolutes in the intel biz anyway. You really don't expect to get them from any channel.

It also depends on who you got. If I got the general's aide, it's bonanza time. Pretty much more than having the general, to be honest. There's no point working someone over if they aren't likely to know.

In addition, the usefulness of any interrogee declines rapidly with time, and the interrogation itself can give them false memories, so you only get a couple of shots at anyone. I'm not sure what the point is in holding people forever and asking them the same damned questions.

There's a lot of ways to get people to talk to you without waterboarding them or using power tools, too. Often, subtlety is all.

I think as long as there is clear evidence that can be used to prove that an individual is a terrorist then the gloves should come off in terms of interrogation. Waterboarding for sure and even as far as torture - i think a proven terrorist should lose all form of rights, even to life.

Where there is not clear evidence then no, you just cant use these techniques.

originally posted by: Bedlam
I know it's not trendy, but I agree with burdman.

CAN rough interrogation work, yes.

Is it always the best route for each person, no.

Is it a really useful primary intel source, no.

There's a lot of folks posting that are saying "I could get someone to say anything/confess to being Justin Bieber, therefore it's pointless".

True, if you've got a situation where you're totally in the dark, and you are hoping to get really first class info that way, it's not the way to start out.

But, if you are trying to clear up specific points and the person you've got is likely to have that info, you can sure use field expedient interrogation to add to the pot. The trick is to either have a lot of people that have the info and average it, or to have ways to corroborate or disprove what you're getting. Also, you never have proven absolutes in the intel biz anyway. You really don't expect to get them from any channel.

It also depends on who you got. If I got the general's aide, it's bonanza time. Pretty much more than having the general, to be honest. There's no point working someone over if they aren't likely to know.

In addition, the usefulness of any interrogee declines rapidly with time, and the interrogation itself can give them false memories, so you only get a couple of shots at anyone. I'm not sure what the point is in holding people forever and asking them the same damned questions.

There's a lot of ways to get people to talk to you without waterboarding them or using power tools, too. Often, subtlety is all.

But its plain just not right.

It makes us as bad as those we fight.

originally posted by: matafuchs
a reply to: crazyewok

So, are the rainbow unicorns that will get the information from the bad guys ready or is waterboarding still ok?

Give them some MDMA and talk to them. You could get all you needed in about 45 minutes. Might even get their ipod playlist....

O cut that bull # out.

The current policys are working.


And you still have not adressed the danger of accidentally capturing a innocent person a torturing them by mistake with the CIA have done.


You allow the government to use torture and deny due process anda slippery slope starts were YOU may find yourself being detained without due process and waterboard.


But whats the point discussing it with you? Your messiah Trump said it was a good idea so it must be Derp derp.

originally posted by: crazyewok
But its plain just not right.

It makes us as bad as those we fight.

It's not clear cut, and there's a big rainbow of technique from simple questioning to the 100 Questions.

If you're caught robbing a liquor store, you're going to be interrogated by the cops. They don't do it with ice cream sandwiches and puppies, even if the guy's lawyer is there.

However, you can sometimes get info from or turn people by just doing violence to the structure of their lives, and never injure them at all. I recall 'some people I met' just riding a guy around for an hour or two then returning him to his home in front of his neighbors and the local religious zealots, and telling him thanks a lot for all the help, and driving off. Wasn't but a day or two and he was as cooperative as you might like, in exchange for getting him and his family elsewhere.

That's not waterboarding, but for this guy, it was really productive. I heard.

a reply to: Bedlam

These aren't rough interrogations. It's torture. When you say rough interrogations it makes me think of "good" cop, "bad" cop.

Would you call being force fed rectally your purred dinner rough?

And, as I've said, GITMO is America's public torture center but god only knows what goes on at our black sites. GITMO was probably put in place for conditioning and clearly it's worked. A good number of Americans are ignorant to what goes on there and support it.

Derp.

a reply to: matafuchs

I fully support giving them MDMA. You want answers? You'll get them for sure!

Btw, not Mr. T. Google it and find out what wise man said it.

a reply to: UKTruth

So knowing that torture is not an effective means of getting information you would still support it? Is that because you enjoy knowing a bad guy is being brought pain? That's kinda sick if you do.

Did you watch the video I posted a couple pages back? If not, I'll post it again. Watch it to the very end when they talk to an ex FBI specialist.

originally posted by: matafuchs
Give them some MDMA and talk to them. You could get all you needed in about 45 minutes. Might even get their ipod playlist....

You can actually use meds to elicit info. I don't know about MDMA, but there's a cocktail of readily available stuff that'll have you talking like a wild man, and never remember a bit of it later.

It also produces a lot of noise. What you get out of it is sort of up to the skill of the guy asking the questions. But you can often get some really crafty info, then feed it back to the guy when he's sober, or use it as a filter when you question him sober, because he's not going to remember having been asked that question, or giving you that answer earlier. It can be really disorienting the first time or two, which often loosens the guy up.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: crazyewok
But its plain just not right.

It makes us as bad as those we fight.

It's not clear cut, and there's a big rainbow of technique from simple questioning to the 100 Questions.

If you're caught robbing a liquor store, you're going to be interrogated by the cops. They don't do it with ice cream sandwiches and puppies, even if the guy's lawyer is there.

However, you can sometimes get info from or turn people by just doing violence to the structure of their lives, and never injure them at all. I recall 'some people I met' just riding a guy around for an hour or two then returning him to his home in front of his neighbors and the local religious zealots, and telling him thanks a lot for all the help, and driving off. Wasn't but a day or two and he was as cooperative as you might like, in exchange for getting him and his family elsewhere.

That's not waterboarding, but for this guy, it was really productive. I heard.

Thats fine though.

Thats no invasive and does not cause permanent physical harm.

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: UKTruth

So knowing that torture is not an effective means of getting information you would still support it? Is that because you enjoy knowing a bad guy is being brought pain? That's kinda sick if you do.

Did you watch the video I posted a couple pages back? If not, I'll post it again. Watch it to the very end when they talk to an ex FBI specialist.

I dont like the idea of a bad guy being in pain, no. However any chance to gain information to stop other innocent people dying should be taken. Whilst I don't like the idea of torture per se, I certainly wouldnt lose sleep over a murderer being in pain. I will watch your video to see if it proves categorically that these techniques do not ever work.

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: Bedlam

These aren't rough interrogations. It's torture. When you say rough interrogations it makes me think of "good" cop, "bad" cop.

That gets done too. It's sort of time honored.

Would you call being force fed rectally your purred dinner rough?

I'd call it pointless. OTOH, I've seen people emergently hydrated that way if you couldn't get a line in. Just cut the end off the IV set and...jam it where the sun don't shine.

And, as I've said, GITMO is America's public torture center but god only knows what goes on at our black sites.

GITMO falls under my 'if it's more than a few days old, there's no point' qualification. I don't understand the reason for it. By now, any info they had is aged out, and the guy has been stressed so much he's going to have a lot of confusion.

OTOH, I've seen some of the contract interrogators do really pro jobs on high value people. No broken knee caps, no drills. Just talk them out of it.

a reply to: Bedlam

Yeah, that time honored tradition isn't going anywhere and I'm okay with that. I agree, you don't need to torture someone to get information. You do need to know how to talk to someone to get what you want. It's take time building rapport but it works. I would dare say most terrorists are not well educated, if at all (depending on their region) and had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Now that the US gov't has them they are desperate again and they know the only way to provide for their families is to work with the US gov't. I would bet most terrorists are also in it to support their families. Makes sense why ISIS is so popular, they're loaded!

a reply to: UKTruth

How many times must it be said, torture doesn't work. There are much better ways of getting info without inflicting any pain.

1984, wordspeak, it works. Peacekeeper missiles are all about peace. And torture is all about maintaining our righteous way of life. The moral compass will never be found out there. It can only be found inside, one person at a time.

originally posted by: Swills
a reply to: UKTruth

How many times must it be said, torture doesn't work. There are much better ways of getting info without inflicting any pain.

Depends on what kind if torture you use sleep depravation can be very effective in the hands of an interigator and that's considered enhanced interrogation technique's. As for water boarding by itself probably very ineffective but used in conjunction with other methods I can see it could be. In interrogations the first thing you want to do is break the person what doesn't work on one may work on another. But don't ever trust the information you get by just torture alone they will tell you anything to get you to stop. But to effectively mess with their mind u can see it as a tool like playing good cop bad cop.

a reply to: dragonridr

But don't ever trust the information you get by just torture alone they will tell you anything to get you to stop.

And this is exactly why it's pointless. Torture is most effective as a method of getting someone to confess to a crime they did not commit. Hell, that may have been why it was invented in the first place.

Waterboard then shoot.

Zero sleep lost.