DNA, Human Genome Project and the Myth of Race

This was part of informal online debate that went down on Facebook yesterday, where there was a webpage
about Taking Race out of Human Genetics.

You say no such thing as race? Yet we have Race (human classification)

The field actually exploded with the internet, and that whole section of science is being redefined all the time. There is a huge caveat with AncestryDNA test being able to redefine ethnicity/haplotypes It just so happens the real world collects and publishes this data based on race, so it is most essentially we maintain the race class for historical consistancy. It comes into play in genealogy research, and it's a census question that directly correlates to geography.

I'm sick of the political correct bull#... you want a prime example of social constuct, try searching google image for the term "wigger". Let me ask, would you allow people who identify as such? The problem has been people not being able to place themselves into a single checkbox on the form, but I think they changed it so you can pick multiple categories. or write in whatever you want. The "race" question was actually a "color" quesion from the 1800s through 1950.

Here is the fly in the ointment.. The top DNA testers are vastly inconsistant with there interpretations on the same DNA samples, which can NOT tell the color of your skin from DNA without you actually telling them. Same is true for other genetic traits such as eye color, hair type, hair color being true ID markers and other genetic traits in chromosomes which are really important, yet you will not see any such thing in commercial DNA reports. The Human Genome project made alot of progress, but because if was partially funded with private funds, there is a problem with disclosure of research, and project terminated before it was fully developed. There are independant studies of the various DNA testing which better describe the problem.

I will just say that sequencing the genome is just a milestone towards that actual mapping of genetic traits. I'm no expert in the DNA field, but rather critical of the testing being sold because of the cost involved and have been waiting for someone to standardize the race/ethnicity interpretations of the raw data with a bit more precision.

From the Skeptic...
First to decode the human genome, Craig Venter was also quick to announce during his White House visit in 2000 that “the concept of race has no genetic or scientific basis.”

From my perspective this says HIS decode method yielded nothing to support to support race at all. So, why are we 16 years later using that same method to pay for expensive equipment that are imputing that data which does not exist? Did the Human Genome Project result in a failure? If you say no, then why did not continue their work to support application. They all seem to have written books, etc and abandon the actual commercial testing methods they are charging hundreds of dollars per test. I am pretty much convinced there is a high level conspiracy, or scam being played since the source of the information comes from private interests who are not too keen on millions of dollars in research being made public domain as the government requested. There are still big companies making millions with varying degrees of success. DNA failing to ID race is a pretty significant issue for science because the medical field still needs the data for interracial group donors which are extremely rare and vital to many who are on waiting lists for transplants, etc.

The problem with the census race question is that info is only made public 72 years after it is collected, so is of no value whatsoever to the living people who could actually benefit from that data. Instead, we have a corrupt government who uses the data to suit their agendas. There is a public law that supposedly "protects the citizen" from census data disclosure to the public, but offers zero protection from the government mining that valuable data for political gain as an internal function of the administration de jour. They do have a big brother system that will track people and their geographic locations, and much more. and nobody even questions how they mis-use of their systems. The governments way of controlling the masses.

Anyone got any thoughts about this shortcoming of DNA sequencing? if your race has no science then what about other traits/markers that are genetically encoded? skin color, eye color, hair type and color, other physical features unique to ethnicity... genetic traits are part of DNA as describe on wikipedia and textbooks, yet no scientific method to prove simple hereditary traits.

It appears the Anthropolgy science people are making an arugment to re-write biology. My knowledge of DNA is limited, but it seems like skin color would be coded in DNA somewhere/somehow since it a dominent trait that we born with. Makes me think science is being altered to suit a multicultural agenda and should be on the radar of the skeptics.

He's right, the concept of race has no genetic basis. I'm sorry that your world view does not align with the scientific evidence.

a reply to: GetHyped

Race is a social construct only, there is no taxonomic difference from one person to another regardless of their ethnic background.

You do realize that the link you had about "Race (human classification)" is not a scientific view, but a social construct? It even says so in the very first line.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your OP.

a reply to: mapsurfer_

Arguably, there is a difference between race and skin color. I would suspect the latter is encoded in your DNA while the former is a social construct of which skin color forms a part.

I'm in hawaii and I see tourists all the time, arrive on vacation with a lighter skin tone and leave with a darker one. one thing i have noticed is westerners tend to highly value a golden tan and it is idolized in media and yes social constructs, where as most of the japanese tourists, especially women, make every effort to cover themselves in the sunshine here and you don't see them sunbathing as much. i learned from a freind that is because being tannned in Japan is socially frowned upon, because of their own cultural disposition of having favortism in society towards those of lighter skin tone, aka white.

originally posted by: creation7
I'm in hawaii and I see tourists all the time, arrive on vacation with a lighter skin tone and leave with a darker one. one thing i have noticed is westerners tend to highly value a golden tan and it is idolized in media and yes social constructs, where as most of the japanese tourists, especially women, make every effort to cover themselves in the sunshine here and you don't see them sunbathing as much. i learned from a freind that is because being tannned in Japan is socially frowned upon, because of their own cultural disposition of having favortism in society towards those of lighter skin tone, aka white.

Very true. Many other countries view a lighter skin tone as a sign of wealth, because the poor work outside and therefore get darker skin from the sun.

part of my genetic makeup is backgrounds of german, scottish, irish, and dutch so I feel I am already very much a part of a multicultural background. what was it OP, that you meant by multicultural agenda? would you mind clarifing your last part of your post?

a reply to: mapsurfer_

Well there are genes for skin variation ,eye color and hair type

The genetic basis underlying normal variation in the pigmentary traits of skin, hair and eye colour has been the subject of intense research directed at understanding the diversity seen both between and within human populations. A combination of approaches have been used including comparative genomics of candidate genes and the identification of regions of the human genome under positive selection, together with genome-wide and specific allele association studies. Independent selection for different pigmentation gene sets has been found between Asian, European and African populations. Several genome-wide association studies for pigmentation have now been conducted and identified single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) markers in known, TYR, TYRP1, OCA2, SLC45A2, SLC24A5, MC1R, ASIP, KITLG and previously unknown SLC24A4, IRF4, TPCN2, candidate genes. The contribution of SNP polymorphisms present in populations from South Asia have been tested and alleles found at TYR, SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 can largely account for differences between those of darkest and lightest skin reflectance using a simple additive model. Skin and hair colour associations in Europeans are found within a range of pigmentation gene alleles, whereas blue-brown eye colour can be explained by a single SNP proposed to regulate OCA2 expression.
hmg.oxfordjournals.org...

However the above only express some variation among us it does not express "RACE" which is a totally different thing.

originally posted by: creation7
I'm in hawaii and I see tourists all the time, arrive on vacation with a lighter skin tone and leave with a darker one. one thing i have noticed is westerners tend to highly value a golden tan and it is idolized in media and yes social constructs, where as most of the japanese tourists, especially women, make every effort to cover themselves in the sunshine here and you don't see them sunbathing as much. i learned from a freind that is because being tannned in Japan is socially frowned upon, because of their own cultural disposition of having favortism in society towards those of lighter skin tone, aka white.

A tan is temporary, and tanning would not explain the color of a newborns skin. There is a similar argument about people evolving close to the equator having a "geographic race", but they not the same. Goes beyond skin color, but the pigment of a Panamanian skin is not as dark as black skin even though they live on the equator. South American's don't have the same hair type either,and the africans seem to have a lock on the black tight curl afro which is different than any other ethnic group. If you go with the "out of africa" theory, we should have europeans (and other ethnic groups) with black tight curl afros, and you might expect the most common ancestor to have the same inherited trait. I'm hoping there is some recent anthropolgy major who can explain that lack of genetic varience in pure black and hispanic. The inter breeding mix is what yields some really interesting looking offspring, but those generations are hybrids that have to select multiple classes to self describe themselves.

Well, the notion of race is a social construct. All of the DNA testing that I've done doesn't say anything about race per se.

If I recall correctly, when your admixture is determined, it is presented as a percentage of:
- Northern European
- Sub-Saharan African
- Asian
- Native American.

There has been a lot of research done on determining what markers are associated with each geographic origin. But there are a lot of questions about its validity.

When I first tested, 23andMe was using one method of determining that admixture. Another method came along that promised more accurate results. So they recalculated their clients' admixtures based on the new methodology. Some people were pleased in that the new results were more representative of what their genealogical research indicated. Other people were incensed because the opposite was true.

One woman on the site was so surprised at the new admixture results she was considering suing the company. I remember she posted something to the effect: "I know for a fact that there is no Negro in my family!" LOL

I had paid for several of my family members to get tested. Using the first method, my father's sister tested with the amount of Native American ancestry that I had calculated based on genealogical research. The new method was completely incompatible with that research. There were others on the 23andMe website that said the same thing; particularly with respect to Native American ancestry. Part of the problem was that many of the Native American markers were similar to Sub-Saharan African markers. Some of that ambiguity is because there are not very many pure Native Americans to test, in order to establish a standard.

My admixture was one of the first indications to me that there was something amiss concerning the story told to me my whole life about my father. This Non Paternal Event (NPE) was finally confirmed when I got the results of the test of my father's sister. Take it from me, the discovery of an NPE is one hell of a shock.

On a side note, I believe about 20% of African-American men in the US carry a Y-Chromosome marker of Northern European descent. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine why that is so.

-dex

originally posted by: creation7
part of my genetic makeup is backgrounds of german, scottish, irish, and dutch so I feel I am already very much a part of a multicultural background. what was it OP, that you meant by multicultural agenda? would you mind clarifing your last part of your post?

we all have that makeup 4 grandparents, 2 parents so how to you self identify to the list of classes on the census form? From the years 1880 til 1930, the historical data has 1 value (white, black, hispanic, etc) that data corresponds to a specific geography which is subject to gerrymandering. Basically every govenment has their laws and politicians who leverage these datasets in everyway imaginable, even though it's non-scientific, and the fact that it is misused.

The multicultural agenda I am referring is the UN sustainable development, but in general governmet developing communities that are totally diverse. I live in such a community, and we have much crime in the hood.

a reply to: DexterRiley

Dex,

That NPE would be a shocker for anyone. Embarrasing would be an understatement.

I dont think these DNA testers have but a very limited capability, but I heard they could reprocess the raw data and get some plausible results for those AFRICA and EURASIA regions which is a very broad stroke. I wonder if this is the same type of testing they do for forensics? or maybe they want more $ for another type of test?

not to be a party downer but this until new data.

right now the data is in the OP's favor.

a reply to: mapsurfer_

ya, the other half of my genetic origin is Pottawatomie NA, Korean and English. I only wrote the genetics of one parent that you are replying too. I live in Hawaii, crime is relatively low, but I think thats an economic issue more.

As far as what I fill in on a document requesting race, I mark Caucasian or white, because I have more of those ethnic backgrounds than any other, though if you saw me in person one would say I may appear Asian, albeit with brownish blond hair and hazel eyes. Like you say its rather arbitrary to only have one choice and its open to misuse

a reply to: mapsurfer_

Well I had a friend with a tight curl afro and he was very much white, had a lot of facial features that would "typify" him as hailing from recent African admixture if not for his skin.

I've seen every different type of genetic expression expressed alongside the whole range of skin colour even in the relatively short life I've lived. If you have yet too, please use google image search.



On a side note;You miss out a lot of letters off the end of words and just whole words sometimes that makes following what you're trying to say quite hard

I look like your typical anime character

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: mapsurfer_

Well there are genes for skin variation ,eye color and hair type

The genetic basis underlying normal variation in the pigmentary traits of skin, hair and eye colour has been the subject of intense research directed at understanding the diversity seen both between and within human populations. A combination of approaches have been used including comparative genomics of candidate genes and the identification of regions of the human genome under positive selection, together with genome-wide and specific allele association studies. Independent selection for different pigmentation gene sets has been found between Asian, European and African populations. Several genome-wide association studies for pigmentation have now been conducted and identified single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) markers in known, TYR, TYRP1, OCA2, SLC45A2, SLC24A5, MC1R, ASIP, KITLG and previously unknown SLC24A4, IRF4, TPCN2, candidate genes. The contribution of SNP polymorphisms present in populations from South Asia have been tested and alleles found at TYR, SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 can largely account for differences between those of darkest and lightest skin reflectance using a simple additive model. Skin and hair colour associations in Europeans are found within a range of pigmentation gene alleles, whereas blue-brown eye colour can be explained by a single SNP proposed to regulate OCA2 expression.
hmg.oxfordjournals.org...

However the above only express some variation among us it does not express "RACE" which is a totally different thing.

This was a really good find, thanks. That looks like impressive research but I don't comprehend most of it, but this was the type of research I expected to come from Human Genome Project a decade earlier. That research published in 2008, but other research occurred in 2013 that resulted in the International HapMap Project, and skin pigment, eye color, hair color are listed in the mapping which is news to me. The site however doesn't appear to be maintained, and a few of the main links are broken. Apparently, they are still discovering and trying to sequence many millions/billions of base pairs.

Well solving skin color would be a big step towards a RACE classification in DNA, and that came 13 years after the statement made by Craig Venter. All they would need to do to fully develop the classification is proxy genotype identified for other characteristics that might further define what race is... for example the trait responsible for hair "type" (curly or straight), or epicanthic eyes, or whatever kinds of physical attributes they can detect.

I think there will still be heated debate over use of race data among humans on the horizon, but if a test can determine the reflective melanin value it better fits the pre-1930 "color" data. Pew Research and the US Census Bureau are planning the 2020 Census data collection, put out a blog describing their desire to eliminate the term RACE altogether but they will still be asking for self ID or a number of classes, with a write-in box. Ethnicity will probably still be a thing with Hispanics, which really just another classification of geographic race (characteristics may or may not be detectable in DNA).

If anyone else has any DNA related info published after 2013, please post back to this thread.

a reply to: mapsurfer_

The admixture information is basically just the old divisions of the races. Essentially it's the scientific equivalent of the racial definitions you were talking about earlier.

In another section there is a lot more information about the origins of various segments of the molecular DNA. This is much more detailed view of geographic origins. A significant portion of my DNA originates in Ireland. Another point of origin in on the W. Coast of the African Continent in the area of Cameroon. Then there are other contributions from various sources.

23andMe has a much more detailed test available now than the test we took a few years ago. It's actually pretty cheap compared to what I payed. I haven't checked on it lately, but I think it's around $200.

These chips they are using to perform the DNA analysis are more or less comodity these days. But LEO forensics probably requires a higher standard that what these devices are rated. That's just a guess.

originally posted by: cosmic66
a reply to: mapsurfer_

Well I had a friend with a tight curl afro and he was very much white, had a lot of facial features that would "typify" him as hailing from recent African admixture if not for his skin.

I've seen every different type of genetic expression expressed alongside the whole range of skin colour even in the relatively short life I've lived. If you have yet too, please use google image search.



On a side note;You miss out a lot of letters off the end of words and just whole words sometimes that makes following what you're trying to say quite hard

I'm making typos? I'll check that.. I forgot to proofread, sorry. I did not know but I've looked at alot of white boy afros and there had only a quick comment on..This Guy who identifies as african american and looks caucasion, and I would guess there are a number of people in this category, but I've never met anyone like that. If you know somebody like that, take of pic of your friend and post it. It's a rare combination, but not the strangest black/white mix things I've seen in my life. Most black/white offspring at light brown dominant color, but there are cases where you end up with a white child with curly blond hair which is really unexpected. There was another mixed image I saw of a Japanese/Jew who had epicanthic fold eyes and a largish jewish nose which was a pretty funny combination.

I think it would be far fetched to discover the actual allele or genotype for a tight afro, but I would think it would be a genetic trait but how you identify and measure such might be impossible. I believe they said there are 22 actual ethnicities but the mix breeds yield some pretty amazing features, but often these mix breed people has issues finding compatible medical donors when they are needed.

I though is just a matter of time before they can manipulate DNA to get the best clone features (a possibility), but they were talking another decade as best estimate to finish the development workload at the current pace.

a reply to: mapsurfer_

fits the pre-1930 "color" data

In the census of some years there was an option for Mulatto, which is a light skinned black person.

Another thing about the race reported in the census is the inconsistency. In any given census the same person may be listed as white, mulatto, or black. That determination may depend on the area where they were living at the time, what the census taker knew about the person, or a host of other factors.

I think the lesson learned is that skin color is a spectrum where different circumstances will yield inconsistent results in defining White and Black.

In doing census research, sometimes I had to take into consideration that there may be a different race recorded for the relative between censuses.

-dex