The People Had Overwhelming Force at the Bundy Ranch, and They Showed Restraint... But When...

...The law has overwhelming force... Why is it they must insist on abusing it and kill people like cowards? LaVoy Finicum? Murdered because they could. They fire at the car while stopped, and the guy HAS to take off or get killed. What happened after that is still a matter of speculation until video with audio is presented.

At the Bundy Ranch, the armed civilians could have easily annihilated all those BLM goons with guns, and yet chose to stick it out until a peaceful solution came their way. And only BECAUSE they were outgunned, and overwhelming force was NOT on their side this time, there was not the usual reports of another Ruby Ridge massacre.

The people showed that what they wanted was not warfare with the government, but simply that government stop meddling and defying the will of the people.

And yet so often when the tables are turned and it is the law who has the overwhelming force (99.99999% of the time), bullets fly, people are killed, and the law stands around the bodies without a care in the world, watching the suspects die right in front of them. Some might call an ambulance in 20 minutes or so, but ahh, who cares. Let em die. Paid vacation on administrative leave for me!

When are the people going to stop caring too? When are the people going to start shooting first and asking questions later? Incidents of the people having overwhelming force against trigger-happy law enforcement are exceedingly rare in this country. But my bet is that those incidents will increase, given the increasing dissatisfaction with government these days. And of one these times, the people will stop caring too and watch them die without calling an ambulance.

Law enforcement has taken it upon themselves to arm themselves for literal warfare. And on top of that, they show up in numbers so vast that victory is assured with overkill x 1000.

And yet in spite of this, the people still showed mercy and patience when they had the upper hand and overwhelming numbers. I'd advise law enforcement everywhere to take careful, careful note of this and ease off their trigger-happy fingers. It is just a point that I wanted to make. And yes I realize that many many LEO's make very good decisions every day and prevent tragic situations.

But alas, from the video of LaVoy, it is clear what they wanted. And you got what you wanted. This time. I wonder if LaVoy and 30 men would have murdered you in a scuffle if you were trying to get away after visiting the compound. I seriously doubt it. They might have disarmed you if you were two officers. But kill you while your hands were up as you exited your car? No. Those people showed you mercy back at the Bundy Ranch. Real nice way to repay the favor.

RIP LaVoy. You will not be forgotten.

Statement 1/29/16 from LaVoy's Family about his death:

a reply to: TrueAmerican

Because our society allows the criminals to getaway with anything as long as there is a badge next to their name.
That is part of the reason I left the force,but as they say what must go up will without a doubt come falling back down.

a reply to: TrueAmerican

There's no evidence that the stationary car was fired on, but we do know that this man was a paranoid whackdoodle with delusions of relevance. Trying to drive around a roadblock in the snow was a bad idea, running was a bad idea, reaching for his waistband was a bad idea. And yes, he will be forgotten.

Both sides did stupid things to have the way it ended like it did. Firstly those so called militiamen took over a federal facility with firearms....That was the first mistake. Then on top of that they involved unarmed civilians women and children into the mix.

I'm sorry but for a so called militia they were hardly organized and coordinated to do anything remotely of a grand effect. Honestly they picked the wrong reason to pick a fight with the feds from the start as well.

You noticed almost the majority of the voiced american public called them terrorists although most of them are ignorant and stupid. All in all. They failed miserably to even get any traction to the whole ordeal. They made fools of themselves.

On the flip side.

The feds are at fault as well for putting a hastily stupid ending to the entire thing and made it worse by possibly turning one man into a martyr. Although I have my doubts. I have suspicion to believe the feds killed him in execution style murder. Guess what? They will get away with it. There is nothing you can do about it.

But I too notice that this will not be the last time we hear the end of this little drama.

This so called second american revolution won't even happen unless the american public is demanding change from the government.

LaVoy will be forgotten. THE AMERICAN PUBLIC doesn't care. THEY ARE TOO STUPID, IGNORANT, LAZY.


He will be forgotten and there is nothing you can do about it. EVER.

originally posted by: 4N0M4LY
He will be forgotten and there is nothing you can do about it. EVER.

Sure there is. I will remember him. Just for you.

a reply to: TrueAmerican

Good. It won't change the fact he died on terms that didn't need to come to. If he and the others were shot when they were unarmed then maybe they would have mine and other people's support but since they started the entire ordeal on the wrong foot. You will be hard pressed to find sympathy.

a reply to: TrueAmerican

Irrespective of what Mr Finicum may or may not have been doing in the moments leading up to his death, I witnessed a terrorist cell murder an American citizen in cold blood. If the FBI were serious about serving justice to this individual they would have done it soon after this entire episode began, instead, they acted true to form and exercised subterfuge & ambush tactics - resulting in the execution of an American citizen.

Those individuals who side with this murderous act do not deserve the protection of the Constitution when they clearly endorse this slaying instead of demanding the legal prosecution of LaVoy Finicum in a court of law so that a jury can decide on the validity of his apparent wrong doing.

He was murdered by the US government, folks need to wake up to this simple fact.

a reply to: Sublimecraft

Taking armed protest in general is wrong. He doesn't get off that easy. He deserved to be arrested and tried first and I agree with everything you said but the fact they took up and armed protest was just a bad idea. We don't live in the past. We are in the 21st century.

I am not condoning what the FBI did as any way to solve the situation and what they did was flat out wrong.

LAST TIME I CHECKED. If I was pissed off at what the government was doing I don't go rolling into the IRS building armed with weapons unless I was prepared to die with a bang and intended to kill something. I don't know what the f*ck is wrong with people thinking that stuff was ok.

FYI you will get tagged as a criminal and arrested. They were morons. They will be remembered as such. Suck it up and deal with it.
--------------------------------

HOLD THE FBI accountable or you will see a repeat of this again when a UNARMED protest happens.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: TrueAmerican
Those individuals who side with this murderous act do not deserve the protection of the Constitution when they clearly endorse this slaying instead of demanding the legal prosecution of LaVoy Finicum in a court of law so that a jury can decide on the validity of his apparent wrong doing.

Well, I guess its a fortunate thing that your Australian and don't have the right to bear arms then.

Since you find it perfectly justified for a armed mentally ill religious fanatic to make death threats to the authorities and then attempt to pull his firearm on them, when approached.

For the safety of all Australians, I hope your fanatic beliefs have caused you to be on ASIO's watched list.............. just saying.

They broke the law. He was a criminal. He deserved what he got.
BAM!

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Your opinion is noted. I have an ASIO security clearance.

If you consider a belief that seeking legal justice is fanatical and state sanctioned murder is the correct decision then you have been brainwashed by the establishment and therefore would be part of the problem with societies moral compass.

You will have to live with the fact that this is my opinion in this regard.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: Subaeruginosa
You will have to live with the fact that this is my opinion in this regard.

Oh, I'll sleep just fine knowing that is you opinion, tbh. I just don't personally understand how you could be so supportive of these freeloading religious fanatics... when there so clearly in the wrong, in this circumstance.

a reply to: TrueAmerican

Victoria Sharp’s Account: Victoria was a passenger in the back of the second vehicle driven by LaVoy. She witnessed events from the initial stop of vehicle 1 all the way through to the shooting. She has given a lengthy interview describing events – consistently and calmly. In her report Victoria states that when LaVoy was first pulled over, he and Ryan Payne (who was the front seat passenger) repeatedly requested to talk to the county Sheriff rather than the FBI. Her report is that this angered the FBI agents. In response to FBI demands LaVoy put his hands – both hands – out the window to show he was not a threat. She also reports that from the moment they were pulled over there were approximately 20 laser spots she could see on her and the other passengers, including from pre-positioned snipers in the trees, positioned on the side of the road up in the forest. Significantly, she also reports that the first shots were fired by the FBI when Ryan Payne looked out the passenger side window and was shot at, but was not hit. She reports that no one in the vehicle ever returned fire or pulled any guns or weapons. According to Victoria, after the FBI refused LaVoy and Ryan’s request to remove the two woman from the vehicle (who had come along to sing at the anticipated meeting), LaVoy explained that he was going to drive down to talk to the Sheriff and started to drive away. At or about this point, according to her account, Ryan Payne exited the vehicle and was arrested. The two women in the back seat (Shawna Cox and Victoria) along with Ryan Bundy (also in the back seat) tried to take cover laying on the floor boards because as LaVoy drove away the FBI showered the vehicle with bullets – “at least 120.” Victoria recounts that she and Shawna were screaming and pleading that the FBI stop shooting. Victoria then explains that LaVoy drove the truck into some kind of snow embankment and it was stuck, so he got out of the truck with his hands up. She says he was “just walking with his hands in the air.” According to her account, she then personally witnessed that the FBI, and multiple shooters shot him multiple times, including after he hit the ground and that as he lay dead on the ground his hands were still up above his head. She then says, after this, the government continued to riddle the vehicle with dozens, possibly hundreds of bullets, and that the only reason the two women and Ryan Bundy survived was that the shooters had a bad angle. Ryan Bundy was hit by a bullet or shrapnel caused by this firestorm.

www.freecapitalist.com...

If someone is shot a normal auto response is to grab the area the bullet has entered or exited. One report last night by a retired FBI guy on the Clyde Lewis Ground Zero show said the reaching to his left side was because he had already been shot.... by the time he hit the ground he was already good as dead..

I was not there and as usual there are two different stories about the event which could be cleared up with dash cam videos instead of some blurry drone shot from altitude.

a reply to: 727Sky

Except that he didn't fall to the ground with his hands above his head and we now know that he was armed with a loaded handgun. Why did he leave the car in the first place? Why did he decide that he'd only speak to the local Sherriff? Why did he refuse to talk to the FBI agents? You can't refuse to be arrested by federal agents!
FFS, I have no sympathy for these people. They break the law, they commit property damage, they call for support from other whackdoodles and then they complain about the fact that they are treated like the terrorists that they are. Well, that cost one of them his life.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
... the terrorists that they are...

Terrorist? A guy who never even had as much as a speeding ticket on his record and was entrusted with the lives of some 50 foster children? A terrorist?

You need to watch the video in the OP.

And after you've finished hijacking my thread, perhaps someone might actually address the main point of my OP. Which is the issue of overwhelming force, how it's overused, and in stark contrast to the restraint the people showed when the tables were turned. Perhaps I should take the point further, that if anyone should be entrusted with guns, it's the people, not the law. Bundy Ranch proved that.

They fire at the car while stopped, and the guy HAS to take off or get killed. What happened after that is still a matter of speculation until video with audio is presented.

I didn't know shots were fired at the first stop. If thats true (and the audio will tell) then it becomes apparent this was a hunting party, driving game to the ambush (a roadblock on a blind corner) and then rushing up on their subject who had his hands up to force him to make any move at all they could perceive as threatening.

That they then fired again and again at the stopped vehicle also leads me to conclude they were trying to provoke the rest of the passengers inside to some action that would also warrant a barrage of gun fire, resulting in more deaths

Like he said in the video, we need the audio, autopsy results and a look at the vehicle.

It is unfortunate someone had to die in this dispute, especially Levoy as he was well respected by all, prior to his MURDER (not a terrorist). I can't understand why the law enforcement always have to shoot first and then claim self-defence. With all the bulletproof jackets, vehicles to hide behind, military style weapons, experience shooters,etc they have, they (law enforcement) STILL have to shoot first. UNREAL. What happened to "negociations" that we used to hear about? Not any more, shoot first and move on to other things.

I don't approve of the way they protested with weapons but the law enforcement have militarized the police force in grant scale. I personally modified (as part of my work) army vehicles for the police and it is being done throughout the USA and Canada for sure.

There's a lot I don't like about what our governments (Canadian in my case) are doing but going against the law enforcement fully armed is a war you will never win. If they would have protested UNARMED and with a lot of support and media's presence then your chances of getting changes in policies,corruptions,etc are far greater. If you are dedicated to the cause to " to the day I die", well you may as well be unarmed as this would be a cause for action against the system and greater support from your peers and society in general. Just my 2 cents.

a reply to: 4N0M4LY


That's the true beauty.


After this incident I don't care who they come after. BLM, tree huggers, drug dealers, or school of choicers (or anything else).


Stand together or hang separately as the saying goes. America has made a choice. As of a few days ago it's me and my family, the rest will have to make due as they can.


Maybe the Clinton supporters on this site are right and these "evil white hillbilly jihadies" deserved it because...........


Doesn't matter one way or another. I watched the police shoot down a man like a dog with his hands up and it's simply the last straw for me.


EDIT - by "last straw" I mean I'm all out of damns to give. Not that I am going to take any action. My way of life is not under threat at the moment and will not be for the foreseeable future. Until then I will continue on as always. Happy and content.

Ever since this incident when lavoy was murdered I have watched the comments go round in circles. Basically there is not enough evidence for wither side of the argument.

My own view of the video is this man did not pose a threat when he was killed.

He exited the car into almost knee high snow. He showed his intentions IMMEDIATELY by having his hands up. How can some say he was reaching from an aerial view.

When you are trying to move through snow, at that age, while being aimed at from all directions it is very hard to maintain balance with hands up.

People need to stand up for what is right.

The US govt is rotten yet when someone makes a stand it easier to pick holes.