Army Officer on Oregon Killing: 'This could be the First Shot of 2nd American Revolution'

originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: Flatfish

It's not disagreeing with the courts it's disagreeing with unjust laws and rulings as far as I see it.

That's the same thing!

If you don't like the court's ruling, appeal it!

If you lose your appeals, that means you lost!

You can either get over it, or you can try to build a political consensus large enough to get the law changed.

You can't just make a personal determination that the laws & court rulings are unjust and decide to take up arms to defend your stance.

That's not how it's done in a civilized society.

originally posted by: MrSpad
The general reaction I have seen to this is, about time. These idiots have made militias a joke in the eyes of the American Public. You can claim to be standing up to the oppressive government when you are the one sending in a unwanted armed force from out of state. I think when people take the effort to send you sex toys en mass you might want reevaluate your methods.
It is bad this group did not have single person who was either not crazy or stupid that could have helped them out with a little common sense. No wonder they are completely clueless when it comes to the Constitution.

This is why the "patriot" movement will never result in another civil war. They have no leadership. Just a bunch of pissed off hicks who likely pay FAR too much attention to right wing media.

a reply to: annalisa2016

Well the thing is, Bundy and his cool gang are in jail sitting comfortably.

It's the grunts left on the frontlines who are going to lose their lives

originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: annalisa2016

Well the thing is, Bundy and his cool gang are in jail sitting comfortably.

It's the grunts left on the frontlines who are going to lose their lives

That's my point.

Do these guys really know what started it or are they just gung ho to get killed and make a point that they have either forgotten or don't care.

originally posted by: annalisa2016

originally posted by: TrueAmerican

originally posted by: annalisa2016
Remind me again what started this all?

Failure of the federal government to read, and strictly adhere to, the US Constitution.

Article 4 US Consitution
Clause 2: Property Clause
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Seems to me that specifically states that the Federal Government can and does own land. As evidenced by the fact that Congress can make rules pertaining to such land

This. Very well done.

The Constitution answers so many questions when actually read.

originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: annalisa2016

Well the thing is, Bundy and his cool gang are in jail sitting comfortably.

It's the grunts left on the frontlines who are going to lose their lives

If they lose their lives, it's no ones fault but their own.

The only innocent people in that compound are the children and they wouldn't be there if their parents were'nt cowards of the highest order.

Those are the only ones I'd worry about protecting.

If the adults get hurt or killed, it was by their choice that it ended that way and they know it.

a reply to: Flatfish

The thing is, to them this is their attempt at building a political consensus to get their voice heard as loud as they can be, in their minds this is the only way they can achieve their political aims for change. Like I said I don't support their methods but I do support their motives.

As for civilised society, are we really in a civil society when the majority of our systems are inherently broken and corrupt ?

I mean your own constitution states

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government

If you take it literally, then logically these guys are just following the words of the constitution

a reply to: annalisa2016

From watching the stream of them at the camp, they're as gung ho for a shoot out as you could imagine a person would be

It's why I feel sorry for them, they're so deluded, they're a lost cause and I doubt anything would sway them from their desire for a shoot out now

Whether they know what started it all or are just a long for the ride because they want a cause a fight for, I can't say

First shots fired, they spotted a drone/aircraft and decided to shoot at it

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: TheBulk

Yes, the fact that the "Thanks Obama" meme has become viral doesn't point to the ludicrosity of anything at all

Right, started by petulant Obamaites who think their dear leader is above blame, unlike the previous president who they see perfectly fit to blame for everything. Your standards are for THEE, not for YEE.

originally posted by: charolais
Hundreds of people are shot and killed by law enforcement yearly - no conservatives bat an eye.

Thousands of white people shot by cops, liberals don't bat an eye. A black guy is killed by a white officer and suddenly the world stops.

originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: Flatfish

The thing is, to them this is their attempt at building a political consensus to get their voice heard as loud as they can be, in their minds this is the only way they can achieve their political aims for change. Like I said I don't support their methods but I do support their motives.

As for civilised society, are we really in a civil society when the majority of our systems are inherently broken and corrupt ?

I mean your own constitution states

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government

If you take it literally, then logically these guys are just following the words of the constitution

Forming a political consensus does not require guns or armed takeovers of federal lands, that's what anarchist do.

All I can say is that if these people think this is how it's done, their ignorance is beyond comprehension. They're just plain stupid!

Personally, I think they know damn well that this is not how it's done.

They're just a bunch of angry armed bullies who are too lazy to address their grievances through the proper channels in a civilized manner.

If they have chosen to forsake civilized society for armed anarchy, then they have no right to blame anyone other than themselves for the outcome.

Honestly, I can't believe with the amount of info posted on this very site about what transpired over there, that there's still people asking about what happened, let alone still mention poaching. Read one of the topics about it, please.

Father and son Hammond were convicted of arson under the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996, which states a mandatory sentence of 5 year-minimum for the burning of federal land. They started a backfire to protect their own property from a lightning-lit fire (some sources report BLM started it) and it carried on over to federal owned land, which surrounds most of their farmland. Some 130 acres of federal land was burned, there was no danger to any lives nor could the court find damages in excess of 100 $. The BLM stated later that the land had actually improved after the fire.

The first judge ruled under the Eight Amendment that this would surely not be the intent of the Anti-Terrorism Act and chose to impose them a sentence of 3 and 12 months respectively for father and son (as it would shock the conscience to him to impose them to 5 years, his own words). Both have served that time, it is only after they served the time that an appeal was made and the Ninth Circuit ruled that the first judge unlawfully altered the minimum sentence of 5 years, hence sentencing them back to prison for the remainder of those 5 years.

That was the inital reason for the protest.

a reply to: Flatfish

I agree with you on all points apart from us living in civilised society, but I'm just offering some logical reasons why I think they are doing it this way.

There are many people who resort to violence because they struggle to articulate their points of view out of frustration, these guys are just taking it to an extreme.

It's just sad the ones who are making the final stand are probably the ones who understand their objectives the least, while Bundy and the other instigators of this fiasco are comfortably sitting in a jail cell

originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: Flatfish

I agree with you on all points apart from us living in civilised society, but I'm just offering some logical reasons why I think they are doing it this way.

There are many people who resort to violence because they struggle to articulate their points of view out of frustration, these guys are just taking it to an extreme.

It's just sad the ones who are making the final stand are probably the ones who understand their objectives the least, while Bundy and the other instigators of this fiasco are comfortably sitting in a jail cell

Well if that's the case, those who are still in the compound have a big lesson to learn with respect to blindly following others into deadly confrontations.

Each person makes and answers for their own choices.

Are they being held hostage?

Is someone in the compound holding a gun to their head refusing to let them surrender?

I'm sorry, but I don't feel one bit sorry for anyone other than the kids trapped in there by their lunatic parents.

Which brings up another topic. If it were up to me, I'd be filing with child protective services to permanently remove their kids from their custody as they have proven to be a danger to their well being.

IMO, Anyone who willfully takes their kids to a gun fight has no business having custody of any children.

a reply to: Flatfish

How many humans throughout history have blindly followed orders into deadly confrontations though.

There's always going to be "generals" manipulating the "grunts" to do their bidding and follow orders

Now it's no excuse sure, but the majority of people are stupid and will blindly follow for a cause they believe is right & just even if to others it may not be.

I feel sorry because they're not bad or evil, they're just naive and stupid like many people on this planet, they're just human, I'd say while they might seem crazy, they're more humane than most for being willing to die for their beliefs which are inherently good beliefs, ie the quest to make change for a better world. Sure the methods aren't exactly the best, but their motives are good.

As for the whole child thing, they went in there peacefully, they always claimed it was a peaceful protest and would only ever discharge their weapons if they were fired upon, so they didn't take their kids to a gun fight. I'd say they would be bad parents if they left their kids behind, I see no difference with them taking their kids to what was a peaceful protest to parents taking their kids to church and indoctrinating religion into them but that's all opinion based and is really moot for this discussion so let's not get into such discussion as it deviates from the on going situation.

Theres one patriot dead and another wounded................that's enough for me.....
You guys haggle over the details...WEVE just lost a brother...There WILL be a price to pay for it....

originally posted by: bandersnatch
Theres one patriot dead and another wounded................that's enough for me.....
You guys haggle over the details...WEVE just lost a brother...There WILL be a price to pay for it....

^^^ This is part of the problem. Blindly saying "There WILL be a price to pay for it..." when these people knowingly put themselves in harms way fully expecting to die. This looks even more like they deliberately escalated this situation.

originally posted by: TrueAmerican


The town of Burns is rumored to be under total lockdown, to where average citizens cannot get in or out. Imagine if this was your town, and you couldn't go to work, couldn't get food, or nothing. How would you feel? I know I'd be furious.

And you think this is the Feds fault? Really? The damn town does not want those Bundy losers or their "patriot" buddies there! The adjacent land owners don't want those idiots there. It is nobody's fault other than the Bundy clan and their ilk that the town is supposedly on lock down! It't there obnoxious circus which caused the problem.

originally posted by: bandersnatch
Theres one patriot dead and another wounded................that's enough for me.....
You guys haggle over the details...WEVE just lost a brother...There WILL be a price to pay for it....

patriot... eyes rolling.

originally posted by: opethPA

Great, when are you posting the video to back up your claim since you were there or are you just jumping to conclusions because you dont trust the Govt?

Likewise.
It boils down to who do you trust.
The Federal government?
Not me my friend, not me.