Not enough qualified American workers

a reply to: interupt42

The problem I see is how this will play out in 30 years.

mid twenties who are waiting to have kids till they can afford them prolly will never have them. The group of people(responsible) who you do want having kids won't be.

First, if there was a shortage of skilled workers, that should be their clue to make getting the training easier than running up a ton of debt doing it! How about some apprentice programs, ect.
second, half the minimum wage probably wouldn't support the immigrant, so I bet ya ten to one, that they are getting some kind of gov't assistance.. and are probably ending up with more resources than the average working american.

we've got plenty of people willing to work, willing to learn in this country sitting idle, or working crap jobs that pay crap wages that don't meet their needs. we have the people! what we need is some sane policy within the gov't and corporate worlds!

a reply to: dawnstar

What we need is the average American to get off their lazy fat drunk ass and do something about it instead of criticizing anyone who does!

a reply to: jellyrev

I'm 30 and I haven't had kids because I can't afford it. I want them too. I want to raise them properly.

It sucks.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: dawnstar

What we need is the average American to get off their lazy fat drunk ass and do something about it instead of criticizing anyone who does!

There are plenty of skilled Americans wanting to work. Many with college degrees or skilled in various things and young and ready to take on the world. But they're also smart enough to know that working a skilled job for half or less of what it should pay is robbery. So those jobs get outsourced or the outsourced come here and get them because they'll do it for less money.

We have the people. We have the skills. What we also have however are policies letting employers hire cheap labor for fatter profits. Be it immigrants or even prisoners when possible. That's because they've lobbied for those policies and this is the effect. Selfish greed rules America in the Business world.

But rest assure, in the near future that will all change and those jobs will no longer be outsourced or done by outsiders. They will be done by AI Robotics and the people that have your job now will be where you are now.

a reply to: mOjOm

A lot of these companies are only in the US still because of how beautiful our coastlines are and how beautiful Colorado is.

Or they are run by Americans who want their corporate officers in Texas.

As soon as we make a move to restore rights back to the American worker many of these companies will offshore.

Its because majority of the Americans want to be billionaires who want insanely high wages. How can they all be billionaires with nothing being done?
You just can't.

Same goes to apply that you can't do everything alone. Why companies are going for cheaper alternatives over paying too high. Some people may call them communists. But, All I can say is they are actually getting stuff done. There is not much of an achievement in America anymore after Cold War. America is at its tip of the iceberg. The most advance stuff are not coming out anytime soon because it is horribly blocked by many prerequisites(this what you get for a messy capitalism). The People aren't fighting for such achievements, while they are trying to achieve billionaire title instead.

I'm sure that qualified, in this case, means they can be hired for less than standard wage.

a reply to: makemap

These companies profit billions and incase you haven't noticed cost of living here, especially with a family is outrageous.

These wages are a necessity.

We're all tired of watching people buy jets and build mansion on top of mansion on top of mansion whole paying people minimum wage.

You! You!

a reply to: N3k9Ni

Oh no, the poster above would you believe that these idiot Americans are asking for too much from their overlords!

originally posted by: N3k9Ni
I'm sure that qualified, in this case, means they can be hired for less than standard wage.

And can speak a bit of English (the only requirement). They pull these workers literally off the street , bring em to the US , give them the very basic of training, and ship them back to their home countries. Once there they make some "supervisors" who have on their own learned more about the subject . The rest , if they mess up they shove em out of the chair and pull the next one off the street. Then it is up to these "supervisors" to OJT the replacements
Sad....

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: N3k9Ni

Oh no, the poster above would you believe that these idiot Americans are asking for too much from their overlords!

Sad isn't it?

How can so many sell themselves out, because they believe the lie?

Hard work will not get you the American dream....

a reply to: onequestion

do what?? outside of a large amount of tar and feathers, along with a few guilotines, just what do you propose? It's long past the time that something could be done to stop the train wreck! now it's just a matter of patiently waiting for us to hit rock bottom and hope we have what it takes to rebuild, hopefully with an understanding of just how the downfall came about and a desire not to repeat the mistakes.

Its crazy its almost like H1-b visas is more about cheap labor than really unqualified Americans and these corporations and politicians are all about profits for big lobbyist. Surely that couldn't be?

Tech covers my industry so it's a problem I see a lot and it's actually the combination of several factors. The first issue is that most Americans suck at the job, or perhaps I should rephrase that. Most people suck at it. Being a talented software engineer is not an easy task and most people who get a degree don't know their head from their ass. These jobs require talented people and America hasn't produced enough of them. We have 10 people for every job available but we really only have 1 properly skilled person for every 5 jobs available.

Next there's India with their high population. Just like in the US, most of their graduates aren't very good. The difference is that they seriously overproduced their tech degrees, and combined with a high population means they have 10 talented people for every 1 we have.

This is creating a situation where bringing them in is much better than hiring our own domestic workforce because we're comparing their top 5% to our middle 50%, and they unsurprisingly win on quality.

There's another issue too which is that of wages. Quality of life in India isn't all that high, and many of these people coming over are happy to take a low-mid level wage because it's such a step up for them. It also helps that they're able to take advantage of the currency exchange rates to pay off their schooling and give their families back in India a sizable chunk of cash. For the US workers however, our standards are higher and we expect more. We also have much higher schooling debt to pay off.

Such is life in a field where you're probably only going to get a job if you're either in the top 5%, or if you find some small company that doesn't know any better. This is the reason I have 4 degrees in the field and am working on a 5th. If you're an American it takes a lot of knowledge and skills to get one of the sorts of jobs I'm after, even at entry level because the fact of the matter is... you are going to cost more than someone brought in on an H1B, and those people are already the top 5% of India's job talent. If as an American who expects the sort of lifestyle we're all used to, you're going to cost twice as much salary as them then you need to be three times as good as their best.

It's not right, but look at it from the perspective of national benefit. Does the nation benefit more by having functional companies that are doing really cool things and employing some people, or does it benefit more by having an employed domestic workforce that lacks the skills to do those really cool things?

originally posted by: dawnstar
First, if there was a shortage of skilled workers, that should be their clue to make getting the training easier than running up a ton of debt doing it! How about some apprentice programs, ect.
second, half the minimum wage probably wouldn't support the immigrant, so I bet ya ten to one, that they are getting some kind of gov't assistance.. and are probably ending up with more resources than the average working american.

we've got plenty of people willing to work, willing to learn in this country sitting idle, or working crap jobs that pay crap wages that don't meet their needs. we have the people! what we need is some sane policy within the gov't and corporate worlds!

That's the interesting thing about the programming world. Any book you need is freely available online and coding is highly documented. There are more programming resources on the internet than there is porn, it is that prolific. If the skills are your goal rather than a degree there are nearly infinite resources available.

Do you know what the biggest thing we could do for this demographic is? It would be establishing a basic income so that they don't have to work. Instead they could get paid to sit at home in their underwear, working remotely worth others who are interested, and build software products for 12+ hours a day until their company is up and running. The vast majority of tech workers in the US (who as I already explained, have subpar skills), are also having those same skills atrophy because they're getting work outside of their field, and with the economy being what it is, they have no time to actually develop things and maintain those skills.

Let me give a story. Back in November I attended a game developer conference and had the opportunity to talk to a few people in the industry. I asked them if I was doing things correctly to eventually get a job and they said yes. Which basically means that in addition to school work to get enough degrees I also spend my spare time building personal projects, which I have the opportunity to do because I don't work. I build a project every month or two in a wide variety of software. They said that was the right thing to do and to not give up.

The point being, it takes 10-20 years of programming experience, 5 years of self published material showing software experience, many years of school, applied knowledge, and you have to be pretty smart in addition to that. The vast majority of people who have a tech degree today can not do that, I'm one of the lucky ones who can which means that I'm one of the few who might have a chance at a job eventually. After they graduate, they have to goto work anywhere in order to get a paycheck and repay their loans. Most of those jobs don't have tech needs, and their skills atrophy. They then further atrophy because there's not enough hours in the week to work multiple low level jobs to make rent, and build the type of portfolio needed in an interview.

Basic incomes would fix this. It is my belief that the best thing we could do is create basic incomes, so that people can choose to not do crap work to meet immediate needs, but rather can focus on improving for real jobs later.

Note that I do what I can to try and fix this too. I always have 1-2 students to teach down on their luck who don't go to university for various reasons and I do what I can to teach them some skills, I use my lunch breaks on it at the homeless shelter. Some are application programming, some are web design, some are office software, some is digital art, some is the hardware side of things. I wouldn't say I've been extremely successful at it, but I have gotten one girl off of disability, and another man off the streets and into some honest work.

a reply to: onequestion

I'm 25, 2/3 of those who I know who had kids were by mistake. but they usually do the right thing and the guy and girl stay together in my part of the woods for the sake of the kid.
same boat with buying a house. no one has any money for a 20+% down, I am one of the few who does and have been looking but man I stress out just thinking about every cost of a house.
The people my age I talk to who do get houses are often through fha's and other government programs where they put 3-5% downpayment down and essentially rent the house from the bank.


source was on the graphs. data is from bls. zerohedge just plotted the points

bls=bureau labor statistics

a reply to: Aazadan

does the jobs you are talking about require a degree?? I mean, if there are all these online resources out there, why are you working on your what did you say?? 4th or 5th degree? why don't you just learn the stuff on line?

my husband was a machinist, and well, he would come home alot complaining about the blueprints that he would get from one of the companies that he did work for. he said that the problem was that the company was hiring these kids out of college and just taking it for granted that they knew everything there was to know about the job, only well, there's alot to any job that you just can't learn from a textbook. These kids were making such drastic mistakes, that my husband would spend all day trying to figure them out and fixing them, and then sometimes he would even bring them home to work on.

there's a few things we could do to solve this situation outside of just bringing in more people to do the jobs...
our workers spend a heck of alot of money to get that danged degree and like you said, that means that they will need more money after they graduate to pay back those loans. meanwhile, if you look at some of these colleges, well, compared to what the college I went to they are luxury spas, with cafeterias the serve gourmet meals, all so the college can draw in the best football players! all this luxury kind of increases the cost of going to college. then there's the textbooks that cost four times as much as they did when I went to school. all this fluff, all these high paid ceos and school presidents, well it's needlessly costly!
and then once the kids graduate, is it too much to ask that the companies that hire them spend some time with them just till they get the hang of that particular job?
ya know back in the early 70's heck maybe the late 60's, social services would take the single moms and well train them to do the jobs that needed to be done to get the benefits to the people, now you need a college degree to get hired by them.
same with the trades, you will have a hard time getting into a trade without a few years of college, used to be their were apprenticeships and the companies would take the time to train you.
the higher wages are needed because we have such higher expectations! from colleges with extravagant dorms and gourmet meals, to ceos and upper managements that expect a million or so a year, to companies that expect their employees to come fully trained and capable to perform as if they have years of experience.

think you added more while I was writing this so some might not apply. I am out of the job market now, disabled and well, really a little old to learn new tricks. although I am finding coursera a worthwhile time investment.

originally posted by: jellyrev
a reply to: onequestion

I'm 25, 2/3 of those who I know who had kids were by mistake. but they usually do the right thing and the guy and girl stay together in my part of the woods for the sake of the kid.
same boat with buying a house. no one has any money for a 20+% down, I am one of the few who does and have been looking but man I stress out just thinking about every cost of a house.
The people my age I talk to who do get houses are often through fha's and other government programs where they put 3-5% downpayment down and essentially rent the house from the bank.


source was on the graphs. data is from bls. zerohedge just plotted the points

bls=bureau labor statistics

I fully expect to never own a house in my lifetime, I'm 31 now and looking at a field with wages that are being depressed more and more by the day while housing increases by the day. The odds of landing a job that pays high enough that one can comfortably afford a home (and not get screwed on interest) are slim.

a reply to: Aazadan

They want that so we no longer have property rights. It's all government subsidized housing.

originally posted by: Aazadan
Basic incomes would fix this. It is my belief that the best thing we could do is create basic incomes, so that people can choose to not do crap work to meet immediate needs, but rather can focus on improving for real jobs later.

That's socialism though. Go easy when talking of such things around here. You're going to scare the herd in to a frenzy saying such things.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Aazadan

does the jobs you are talking about require a degree?? I mean, if there are all these online resources out there, why are you working on your what did you say?? 4th or 5th degree? why don't you just learn the stuff on line?

Mostly personal reasons in wanting them. From a more practical point of view degrees with the right buzzwords get you past HR filters, without a degree you are limited to smaller companies that don't really know any better. Another reason is for the hands on experience with other people. You can learn everything you need by sitting down, reading the material, and applying it but that doesn't get you the full collaborative experience that most decent employers are looking for. What it does get you is the knowledge to start your own business and make a product, but if you're working 10+ hours a day, good luck setting aside the time to get it up and running.

My solution actually, is that when I'm done I would like to start my own company, I'm simply not in the superstar tier to get hired elsewhere. I can make a basic product but I am not in the top 5% in our country in talent, and that basically means that I'm not good enough to make a proper product (though I can take a very cross disciplined approach to problem solving, thanks to my education background, which helps a ton). But I can get things started and then bring in those actual talented people to improve it (with enough outside investment to cover wages that is). The main trick in my plan is that I would like a good lead software engineer who can break tasks down to lesser skilled workers, that can then do work similar to as if on a modern day assembly line. It's something I think about a good deal actually, how to take advantage of the moderately skilled tech workers in the US, get them working, and ultimately getting better at those skills again.

It's a real issue though, because if you look at any failed tech company, what you will inevitably find is that the successful ones poached all of the A level talent, and most of the failed ones used the B and C level talent.