Are 'Christians' allowed to Disagree with 'Jesus' and still be called 'Christians'?

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I agree that part of following what was taught was to forgive others, but God forgives when I seek His forgiveness through Christ.

If I don't do the latter, then there is no reconciliation, even if I forgive everyone here on earth who sins against me.

And there have been multiple threads here discussing how forgiving others is as much for you as it is for them. That is part of the wisdom in the action. You learn to let go rather than nurse grudges that harm you as much as the original act did.

a reply to: ketsuko

I agree that part of following what was taught was to forgive others, but God forgives when I seek His forgiveness through Christ.

So, you're editing, adding to, qualifying what Jesus said?

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.

And there have been multiple threads here discussing how forgiving others is as much for you as it is for them.

Indeed there have!

Jesus Didn't Die For Your Sins to be Forgiven

a reply to: ketsuko

You seek forgiveness by forgiving others, that's why Jesus says to forgive others to receive God's forgiveness. If you forgive everyone on Earth that is you receiving forgiveness from God.

Mark 11
25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

a reply to: windword

Windword your comments are just simply silly, childish and baseless

I have stated many times on this site the bible is a spiritual and literal book
You are no different to a Pharisee, placing your understanding of the law, the law you don't even accept on to me
What's wrong with you

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Seriously a theological argument with you, why?
You understand nothing of what I believe.

If you want to know, go study

a reply to: Raggedyman

I have stated many times on this site the bible is a spiritual and literal book

That's fine, but we're not talking about the whole Bible here, we're talking about the words of your savior, Jesus Christ.

You are no different to a Pharisee, placing your understanding of the law,

I've never read in the Bible where the Pharisees criticized people for NOT following Jesus teachings.

placing your understanding of the law, the law you don't even accept on to me
What's wrong with you

I'm not a hypocrite. I am not afraid to say that I disagree with Jesus on several issues. Others, I have no problem with.

What's wrong with me? I have an acute case of "critical thinking". Watch out! It may be contagious!

Well, Ignoring all the hate speech and to answer the question, No.
One cannot in fact disagree with Christ and be a Christian. One might not understand why, Christ said or taught something, but to disagree with Christ is akin to saying, "I know better than God."

a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you ever add anything to a discussion? All I've seen you do is throw accusations around. That's a sign of you not understanding the subject matter.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you ever add anything to a discussion? All I've seen you do is throw accusations around. That's a sign of you not understanding the subject matter.

If you forgive others their sins against you, God will also forgive your sins.

How many Christians agree with this? I'd wager none. So yeah, you can disagree with Jesus and still be called a Christian.

a reply to: Punisher75

What's your point with this? Christians disagree that forgiving others is what leads to their forgiveness.

3NL1GHT3N3D1


You seek forgiveness by forgiving others, that's why Jesus says to forgive others to receive God's forgiveness. If you forgive everyone on Earth that is you receiving forgiveness from God.

Mark 11
25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

No, that is not what that says.
It says,you cannot be forgiven without forgiving others. There is nothing implying seeking anything. The passage is speaking about how things work.

The passage in context...

21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you ever add anything to a discussion? All I've seen you do is throw accusations around. That's a sign of you not understanding the subject matter.

Some people won't and don't listen
I don't think it's worth the effort

You can go study the bible, not just the few verses that suit your belief, that's my advice

I answered this question in another thread you were involved in recently

Forgiveness is a work

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Punisher75

What's your point with this? Christians disagree that forgiving others is what leads to their forgiveness.

My point is that you are guilty of exactly what you accused Ragged of doing.

Matthew 7:1:5 In context...
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Can a democrat / republican / socialist / conservative / green / liberal disagree with aspects of their parties policies and direction or manifesto and still consider themselves followers of that political party?

Yes, of course they can.

In basic terms of right and wrong, we have the minds, spirits and concscience which, if enabled within us by a god / deity..then we MUST challenge the words of that deity, as it is perfectly obvious to me, if that wasn't a desired trait in Humanity...it would never, ever have been enabled by a creator.

So yes...you can question, and still consider yourself a Christian / Muslim / Jew / Hindu / or whatever else.

a reply to: Punisher75

Exactly, you cannot be forgiven if you don't first forgive others. That's my point.

And how does quoting the rest of the passage change what Jesus meant?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Punisher75

Exactly, you cannot be forgiven if you don't first forgive others. That's my point.

Your right but the passage is not about Seeking.
There are many many people who forgive but do not seek God.
I am not being obtuse on this point, just stating that the passage quoted, is not talking about those seeking, but rather how things operate.
Forgiveness by God is an out cropping of faith in God. Forgiveness of others is not in itself enough to receive forgiveness from God.
We see this because everything stated from verse 23-26 is predicated by verse 21 and 22.

21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

a reply to: Punisher75

And faith without works is dead. No forgiveness from you, no forgiveness from God, it doesn't matter how much faith you have.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Punisher75

And faith without works is dead. No forgiveness from you, no forgiveness from God, it doesn't matter how much faith you have.

Again another passage out of its context.
All the writer of James is saying is that, if you are going to claim to be Christian, and you don't help people, you might as well not say your a christian. Lets read the passage in context...

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that?

17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

You might note that nothing in that passage is about Salvation.

a reply to: Punisher75

Christians believe they are saved by faith apart from works though, right? Because whoever confesses Jesus is Lord will be saved apart from anything that they do.

Faith is predicated on works because you will know them by their fruit, and faith is nothing without works.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Punisher75

Christians believe they are saved by faith apart from works though, right? Because whoever confesses Jesus is Lord will be saved apart from anything that they do.

Faith is predicated on works because you will know them by their fruit, and faith is nothing without works.

If you are actually "saved" you will in fact "do works".
You do not do the "Works" to be saved however, you do the works because, Christ is in you and you want to help people because you love them and because you love God.

Here is Christs words on the matter.

John 6:28:29

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent