Are 'Christians' allowed to Disagree with 'Jesus' and still be called 'Christians'?

Can 'Christians' disagree with 'Jesus' & still be called 'Christians'?

Not every word in the 4 Canonical Greek Gospels placed into the mouth of a Greek-speaking 'Jesus' is without some burps along the way. The question is : How far can a person who calls himself a 'Christian' be able to disagree with the good Rebbe on various subjects?

Are 'Christians' meant to follow ALL of his sometimes contradictory teachings like a flock of sheep (or gullible children) or is there any wiggle-room for any argument at all ?

Here are some random points of contention with some of his pronouncements that immediately spring to mind but there are others as well. Feel free to add to this list..

l. His stance on money - apparently he advocated people selling ALL of their belongings and giving the proceeds over to the Evionim ('the poor ones') in order to take up the yoke of the kingdom and follow him. The vast majority of 'Christians' in modern day America (and in the West generally) do not live without any material possessions and have clearly NOT given away all they have to the Poor (Matt 19:21) in order to enter into the Kingdom.

ἔφη αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Εἰ θέλεις τέλειος εἶναι, ὕπαγε πώλησόν σου τὰ ὑπάρχοντα καὶ δὸς πτωχοῖς, καὶ ἕξεις θησαυρὸν ἐν οὐρανοῖς, καὶ δεῦρο ἀκολούθει μοι.

("And Iesus answered him saying, If you would be perfect, go, sell all you have and give [the proceeds] to the poor; and you will have treasure in heaven - then come follow me...")

2, His stance on Divorce - his reactionary & ultra conservative statements on this subject is covered in another thread ('Can a True Follower of Jesus be Divorced/Remarried and still call himself a 'Christian'?)

e.g. 'What the Most High has joined together, let no son of man tear apart: for he who divorces his wife and marries another, commits Adultery against her...' etc.

3. His demands that his disciples avoid the goyim (i.e. Gentiles, non-Jews) and preach only to the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el, and his name calling in Matthew chapter 15 to a poor gentile (SyroPhoenecian) woman who had come to him for help. This smacks of the lowest form of xenophobia if not overt racism.

4. His proclivity for outright violence at times (witness the Riot in the Temple, using whips and cords, which is covered in another thread 'Was Jesus a 'Zealot' who led an Armed Revolt on the 100th Anniversary of the Roman Occupation?' ) with variious statements placed into his mouth that are anything but pacifist ('Do you imagine the Son of Man was sent to bring Peace upon the Land (of Yisro'el)? The son of Man came not to bring Peace, but the Sword....') and the arming of his disciples with real swords on the hill, his inclusion of persons such as Simon Zelotes into his inner circle, etc.

5. Culpability for thought crimes : 'But I say to you, even when a man looks at a woman with lust for her, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart...'

ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ

There are a number of additional dubious aspects to the teachings and sayings in the canonical Greek Gospels that could be added to this list 'up for discussion' - but this is just the beginning of what many would have by way of issues with some of what has been handed down as holy writ.

Is any 'Christian' even allowed to state emphatically, "I disagree with your stance on this issue, Rabbi - for the following reasons etc.' and still be considered a 'Christian? Or is it a take it or leave it situation?

a reply to: Sigismundus

You have a very superficial and distorted understanding of what Jesus taught. All one must do to be a Christian is believe that Christ died for our sins. The question then becomes, does the said Christian abide in Christ?

a reply to: Sigismundus

Well... I struggle to define "Christian" because the term "paulian" always seems to be more appropriate when people use the term...

Though I believe sticking to his teaching is a good plan... know them before saying "I follow Jesus"

l. His stance on money - apparently he advocated people selling ALL of their belongings and giving the proceeds over to the Evionim ('the poor ones') in order to take up the yoke of the kingdom and follow him.

In this particular case, Jesus was actually speaking to an individual who asked how he could be perfect... Keep in mind, HE was saying IF you want to be perfect... Follow me, meaning for that person to literally follow him... not metaphorically...

Money wasn't high on Jesus list of needs... for example, they asked if they should pay taxes... Jesus said give on to Cesar what is his...

2, His stance on Divorce - his reactionary & ultra conservative statements on this subject is covered in another thread ('Can a True Follower of Jesus be Divorced/Remarried and still call himself a 'Christian'?)

e.g. 'What the Most High has joined together, let no son of man tear apart: for he who divorces his wife and marries another, commits Adultery against her...' etc.

Keep in mind, Not all marriage is an instance where two were brought together by God... regardless of where said marriage was performed... Two people joined by Love is what God brings together... Love is not the motivation in all marriages

3. His demands that his disciples avoid the goyim (i.e. Gentiles, non-Jews) and preach only to the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el, and his name calling in Matthew chapter 15 to a poor gentile (SyroPhoenecian) woman who had come to him for help. This smacks of the lowest form of xenophobia if not overt racism.

Doesn't make much sense to avoid the gentiles.... considering the company Jesus actually kept

4. His proclivity for outright violence at times

One time my friend... whipping a bunch of thieves may be violent... but its hardly cause for saying Jesus was anything but a pacifist.

5. Culpability for thought crimes : 'But I say to you, even when a man looks at a woman with lust for her, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart...'

Well no one is perfect... this case is a bit extreme because everyone is guilty of it... without exception

This is one of the writings I have my doubts on... doesn't really seem like something Jesus would say.. but who knows

In any case... IF you accept the label "Christian" you have the right to call yourself the label you accept... regardless of your actions or how much said person actually follows Jesus...

Labels mean nothing... Just as mere words mean nothing...

Its the action of said individual that actually counts

a reply to: Sigismundus

3. His demands that his disciples avoid the goyim (i.e. Gentiles, non-Jews) and preach only to the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el, and his name calling in Matthew chapter 15 to a poor gentile (SyroPhoenecian) woman who had come to him for help. This smacks of the lowest form of xenophobia if not overt racism.

Yes, it seem that you're not the first to notice the racism in some of Jesus' teachings. Here's humorous take on the like....

god? big bang? don,t believe any but no one seems to be debating the 2, Scientists are saying everything started from the big bang but don,t hear anyone saying god created the big bang so what is it?

just strange everyone is still worshipping a god but for quite a few years now we,r getting told everything came from nothing and no one seems to have queried how the two theories could co exist.

its either god created everything or everything came from nothing.

anybody?

If you forgive others their sins against you, God will also forgive your sins.

How many Christians agree with this? I'd wager none. So yeah, you can disagree with Jesus and still be called a Christian.

a reply to: Sigismundus

I would think that most Christians wouldn't endorse this kind of thing.

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

I would think most Christians would think that such a person should be put under confined supervision to stop them from harming themselves.

This may be upsetting buy there is absolutely no way to know what Jesus actually said or didn't say. We can't even keep history strait in a 300 year timespan.

What is true is true. No matter who said it. What is fallacious is a fallacy. Reason is always needed when reading anything.

For instance Kant's categorical imperative is true.

A Christian should be allowed to question the bible and if Jesus actually said what is written.

yep, nope....the first example, that guy was wealthy is why ya said that to him.

similar for all those examples...He sent the Holy Spirit to remind us gently....so you are free to not clean-up when entering when He knocks on your door...

Hey...He said his yoke is easy and the burden light....how cool, huh!!

a reply to: Sigismundus

In answer to the title.

NO!, they may question and seek to understand, face there own doubts and seek the understanding that eludes them but they must accept Jesus is the word of God incarnate and so to disagree with him is to disagree with wisdom and understanding itself.

Those whom disagree with Jesus often then deny he is the son of God or even can be, most whom wonder ask and pray for understanding.

Failure to understand should instead foster acceptance as it become's a matter of faith and trust, if you don't trust Jesus then you can't believe in him, there is no middle of the road with the lord he is the only way.

Amazing
Another non Christian taking pieces of scripture from the whole bible and perverting the context

There is perfection and there are people who are sinners
I agree with every word spoken by Christ yet, I fail

You have a very superficial and distorted understanding of what Jesus taught.

Yes, listing what the bible says he said is sure distorted.

The worst thing about Christianity is all the things that aren't actually in it (but people think they are)- like capitalism, American exceptionalism, worshipping the military, hating science, destroying the planet, etc.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Nice troll thread.

a reply to: Sigismundus

Depends on what they disagree with

This is the only way I can sum up my personal view (sorry for the pic)

Jesus!

a reply to: CB328

It was Christianity that started education for the people and pushed science to the forefront

It's a misrepresentation that Christians hate science, we are just not brainwashed like many here who don't question it
I love science, not stupid enough to believe all of it as fact or unquestionable
Science doesn't have many answers
I note that you see Christianity from a US perspective

a reply to: Raggedyman

I agree with every word spoken by Christ yet, I fail

Are you really trying? Have you giving all your money and possessions to the poor? Have you gouged out your eye or lopped of your hand?

originally posted by: sparky31


its either god created everything or everything came from nothing.

This is probably better in the origins forum, but big bang theory doesn't say the universe began from nothing. That's a myth. It might have, it might not have, no one really knows. Our universe was much hotter and denser in the past and in it's present form appears to have began about 13.8 billion years ago. That doesn't mean it began from nothing. For example the posited "singularity" (which seems to have lost favour with scientists anyway) would be the very opposite of nothing. It might have always existed (the universe that is).

originally posted by: LABTECH767

Those whom disagree with Jesus often then deny he is the son of God or even can be, most whom wonder ask and pray for understanding.

Indeed, those who genuinely look beyond the cultish dogma might begin to doubt his very existence (with good reason)...

a reply to: Sigismundus

Are 'Christians' allowed to Disagree with 'Jesus' and still be called 'Christians'?

Probably not, but with nearly 40,000 different sects of this religion it seems there is an interpretation available for all. If not, it's easy enough to start another one more to your personal liking (and can be quite profitable).

For some strange reason, christians usually seem the least likely group to display the ideals (supposedly) espoused by christ. Hard to disagree with Gandhi.

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Gandhi

a reply to: Raggedyman

I agree with every word spoken by Christ yet, I fail

Do you agree that God forgives your sins when you forgive others their sins?