Let’s look at the Worlds Socialists countries

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Leonidas
a reply to: DBCowboy

So you "Think" it isn't... based on a feeling? And you aren't familiar with the Constitutions of other western democracies but by simply not being the "US Constitution" you don't think they can be similar?

Perhaps that is why you feel the way you do, it is not based on facts, it is based on feelings?

I "feel" you being condescending.

I don't know, off the top of my head any foreign constitutions verbatim. I'm not as enlightened or as brilliant as you are.

I have to actually read and study.

But then again, I'm slow that way. Sorry.

I am not being condescending at all. Sorry if you feel that way, but if you do those feelings aren't coming from me.

None of the Constitutions or Rights of any of the free democracies discussed are secret documents, they are all online and relatively brief. You don't need to understand them "verbatim" to see how strikingly similar most of them are.

I understand you going on your gut...on your "feeling" that they can't be similar. But because I am certain you are at least as "enlightened" and "brilliant" as most people here, I am confident you would quickly discover these realities for yourself with a minimum of effort.

Some are so similar you would swear there was at least a little copy-and-pasting going on when drafting the different Constitutions and Bill of Rights. Charters of Rights and Freedoms etc.

I'm sorry if you felt I was talking down to you or being condescending.

Finland has one of the highest standards of living in the world. Like Denmark and other European countries, equality is considered one of the most important values...

What.. are you trying to make us feel bad to be in this god-forsaken place? Hey, it could be much worse I guess..

It would be interesting to see a comparison of military expenditure between the US and these other countries (if they have any at all).

I would not be shocked if I found out that many of these affluent and peaceful European countries puppeted the US to bear the burden for them, while they sat pretty. It would be a great ploy actually. Twas just a penal colony anyway.. they can bear the suffering.

a reply to: Cabin

Thanks for the clarification.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: TheTory

Right dude there's no way I could have saved up 40,000 for the medical emergency I had at 24 when I got crushed between two cars.

That's why you have insurance.

We can't all afford it at times though. I had a roughly 3 year period without any. Luckily I didn't have an accident.

I find most folks can afford it, but it doesn't take priority. Young people tend to think they are invincible. There should be cheap catastrophic plans available. Regulation has made it impossible to offer lower cost insurance.

But we can't always afford it. We all want cheap catastrophic plans and actually plans where you can get preemptive medicine and care. That's why Obama got elected. If we could just figure out how to do it...we have some of the smartest people in the entire world living in the United States. But we elect the dumbest people into office. Why is that? None of the people we have running for president on either side are in the top 1% of smart people. We have it backwards here in the US.

originally posted by: Cabin
a reply to: DBCowboy


To be honest (not in an insulting way

), US constitution has nothing special in it compared to pretty much any other advanced nations.


It all comes down to culture. US culture generally tends to be extreme individualistic.

I agree with you.

Part of the american propaganda we're fed is that individuals have no rights in other countries. It just isn't true.
Sometimes I find it ironic when I talk to my friends or family in the US about health problems they're having and listen to them describe how they can only go to certain doctors, or certain hospitals, dictated by their insurance company!
I live in one of those so called "socialistic" countries, with universal medical coverage, and I have the right to choose any doctor or health facility I want, private or public... (and my prescriptions are covered too).
In some ways, I enjoy more "freedoms". (I don't know why, using that word in plural always seems somewhat retarded to me).

But something that is difficult to talk about which you dared to address, is the concept we grew up with that all people are born equal.

This is a false idea we cling to. This indicates that everything we live afterwards is a result of our individual choices.
Our health, our success in school or work...it sort of shocked me to see how, in this country, people are much more realistic about acknowledging their weaknesses and personal challenges - not even as "things I am working on" but simply "things that are part of who I am."
Like accepting that one is not terribly bright, or even that they have a low IQ ! In this country, that is not a terrible thing to admit. It means you still have a valuable and important part to play in the society, in manual work, for example.

I think it isn't realistic or fair to claim that people only get sick as a result of their choices, or that they cannot get a high paid job because of their choices.

originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: Willtell

Those aren't socialist countries.

Here is a list of socialist countries:

List of Socialist States

Most of these countries had to adopt a "conservative economy" to stay afloat.

You're right, but those countries he listed don't claim to be socialist anyway. They are a mix of socialist and some other political ideas. That's why I'm voting for Bernie Sanders. Democratic/Capitalism/Socialism is what we need in the USA. It's time we invented a new type of government that brings together only the good things that all the parties have shown to work.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Willtell



Quite comparable to many U.S. states, both in size and population. I have no problems with individual states deciding by popular vote to exercise more socialist programs than others.


Bottom line is I don't see huge number of immigrants from the U.S. fighting their way into any of these nations...other than refugees, that is.

I agree, In the USA it should come down to each state deciding what form of government to use via the vote.

Here is an immigration list. Sorry but I didn't look around long enough to find a more recent one but you get the idea. www.nationmaster.com...

If we all weren't getting so badly ripped off by the banksters and corporate oligarchs we could have a very balanced system of free market capitalism supplimented by a good social system to provide an INVESTMENT into our future.
Better education means more smart people inventing things like maybe even the cure to some disease you might get.
More available quality health care means people are healthier and can be more productive.
A non predatory monetary system means less poverty all while allowing honest competition to better ourselves.
Can anyone say that a true free market even exists anywhere in the world now with a straight face?

a reply to: scraedtosleep

What the OP is largely referring to is Social Democracy, particularly the Nordic model:

The Nordic model (also called Nordic capitalism or Nordic social democracy) refers to the economic and social policies common to the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Iceland and Sweden). This includes a combination of free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and collective bargaining at the national level.

Although there are significant differences among the Nordic countries, they all share some common traits. These include support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade.

Each of the Nordic countries has its own economic and social models, sometimes with large differences from its neighbors. According to sociologist Lane Kenworthy, in the context of the Nordic model, "social democracy" refers to a set of policies for promoting economic security and opportunity within the framework of capitalism rather than a system to replace capitalism.

source wiki

The thing is, from what I see, is that it is not so much a question of what system is "best" in any objective way- but context is imperative to consider! What works in one country might be a total disaster in another, because fo the cultural mores and traditional thought, the individuals within the system will not act the same within it.

A country needs to have a very strong labor market in it for this sort of system to work.
But my objection is usually that our deeply ingrained values upon individualism are a barrier to such systems being effective.



I suspect that the internet and computers in general have changed our world drastically, and we need to think totally outside the box about economic systems and ways of living, to adapt. IMO

The countries that have introduced laws against "unkind speech" are done, as far as freedoms go.

It will slowly grow to "insulting the fatherland" or "insulting dear leader".

And whoever has power will make sure to extend it to their favorite people, exclusively.

It's why nothing should be illegal to say, except something that physically hurts somebody (fire / theater), causes loss of opportunity / $ (slander / libel), or is some sort of assault. As in the American Constitution. Thank me very much.

"Hate Speech" countries are done. And they basically deserve it for being so silly as to criminalize hurt feelings. The slide into dysfunctional is guaranteed.

Yeah, what we need is more government control over our lives.

Not a chance. I don't need the government taking more of my money because they belive they know they can spend it better than I.

Anyone who believes the government knows better than they do on such things are the best examples of sheep.

I will budget my health care. I will decide where my children go to school. I will decide the prices of the product i sell at my business and will base it in supply and demand. I will control my future, not some faceless government buracracy.

originally posted by: Leonidas
I think some people in this thread are conflating the terms "Socialism" with "Communism".

Not at all. Those of us who know that neither is possible in reality, are very well aware of the definitions and technical / operational meanings of both. Especially as they dovetail in the same long-winded myth.

You may be swayed by the endless repetitions of "hawhawhawhaw you don't even know what it means" or "teeheehee your so dum" from the believers. They spend more of their time pretending that everybody who disagrees with them, knows nothing......than acknowledging the realities of the 100% failure rate of the theory.

originally posted by: stevieray
[than acknowledging the realities of the 100% failure rate of the theory.

Not 100%.

95% failure.

The Scandinavian countrys have got a nice working balance.

Though they in my opinion got lucky due to a small population and homogenous culture.

What worked for them won't likely work in the USA.

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Leonidas
I think some people in this thread are conflating the terms "Socialism" with "Communism".

Not at all. Those of us who know that neither is possible in reality, are very well aware of the definitions and technical / operational meanings of both. Especially as they dovetail in the same long-winded myth.

You may be swayed by the endless repetitions of "hawhawhawhaw you don't even know what it means" or "teeheehee your so dum" from the believers. They spend more of their time pretending that everybody who disagrees with them, knows nothing......than acknowledging the realities of the 100% failure rate of the theory.

Can you give an example of a successful capitalist country?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Leonidas
I think some people in this thread are conflating the terms "Socialism" with "Communism".

Not at all. Those of us who know that neither is possible in reality, are very well aware of the definitions and technical / operational meanings of both. Especially as they dovetail in the same long-winded myth.

You may be swayed by the endless repetitions of "hawhawhawhaw you don't even know what it means" or "teeheehee your so dum" from the believers. They spend more of their time pretending that everybody who disagrees with them, knows nothing......than acknowledging the realities of the 100% failure rate of the theory.

Can you give an example of a successful capitalist country?

Um, America ? And yes, we're in huge debt thanks to socialistic spending with no effort to acknowledge waste or failure of programs, just more spending. To include the military; the sens and reps dole out the $ to their states, for crap that the military doesn't even want. And that's a good example of the socialistic tendencies of America. Crony capitalism and spending and budgeting. Plus the best legitimate medical and financial safety nets ever devised, because capitalism has created a glut of money to do it with.

Hope this helps.

Capitalist UK did well....now they're on the ropes because of their creeping socialism including massive amounts of ME criminals and terrorists, just walking into the country and onto the dole.

originally posted by: stevieray

. Plus the best legitimate medical and financial safety nets ever devised, because capitalism has created a glut of money to do it with.

Except the USA has one of the worst and least efficient Medical care systems in the develop would......

Certainly no Japan, France, Singapore, Switzerland ect

originally posted by: stevierayCapitalist UK did well....now they're on the ropes because of their creeping socialism including massive amounts of ME criminals and terrorists, just walking into the country and onto the dole.

On the ropes?

Our economy these days is one on the strongest and stable, more so than post recession USA. Our deficiet unlike the USA is on track to be eliminated by tge end of the decade and our growth is strong and steady.

And as for the muslims? Blair reign of stupidity is over, we have been deporting the Islamic trouble makers the last few years and unlike main land EU we have not cast open our doors to unregulated islamic immigration , we have only been letting in a few after heavy vetting.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: stevieray
[than acknowledging the realities of the 100% failure rate of the theory.

Not 100%.

95% failure.

The Scandinavian countrys have got a nice working balance.

Though they in my opinion got lucky due to a small population and homogenous culture.

What worked for them won't likely work in the USA.

Agree totally. They could make it work as long as they remained tiny, basically non-military with no responsibilities anywhere, and as lily-white / homegrown as the KKK. With extremely homogenous ethics, morals, work ethic, etc. About like a commune, kibbutz, Amish, Penn Dutch, Mennonites, etc. They also have been lucky to have had no lunatic fascist leaders, just the luck of the draw.

Socialism / communism can't work anywhere that doesn't have those unique qualifiers.

And now these guys have jumped the shark, by folding in that most terrific of collective tenets - let anybody wander in and grab the freebies, pollute the physical and character gene pools. They couldn't just boast of the success, they had to go all marx and obama and wander into the deep end without their floaties.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: stevieray

. Plus the best legitimate medical and financial safety nets ever devised, because capitalism has created a glut of money to do it with.

Except the USA has one of the worst and least efficient Medical care systems in the develop would......

Certainly no Japan, France, Singapore, Switzerland ect

originally posted by: stevierayCapitalist UK did well....now they're on the ropes because of their creeping socialism including massive amounts of ME criminals and terrorists, just walking into the country and onto the dole.

On the ropes?

Our economy these days is one on the strongest and stable, more so than post recession USA. Our deficiet unlike the USA is on track to be eliminated by tge end of the decade and our growth is strong and steady.

And as for the muslims? Blair reign of stupidity is over, we have been deporting the Islamic trouble makers the last few years and unlike main land EU we have not cast open our doors to unregulated islamic immigration , we have only been letting in a few after heavy vetting.

American medical certainly isn't beholden to some USSR-style central planning set of goals. A lot of extra money changes hands due to the good old profit motive and rewards for great advances. But as you know, this results in the greatest creations, equipment, and advancements anywhere. I'm no fan of big pharma, and would laugh to see legalized marijuana replace about half of their products. But we do have the most successful products for comfort and cure, that have ever existed.

I think you have rose-colored glasses on your finances, economy, and social ills. I don't believe your muslim problem will do anything but grow, and cause big problems in these areas. We'll have to disagree.

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: stevieray

. Plus the best legitimate medical and financial safety nets ever devised, because capitalism has created a glut of money to do it with.

Except the USA has one of the worst and least efficient Medical care systems in the develop would......

Certainly no Japan, France, Singapore, Switzerland ect

originally posted by: stevierayCapitalist UK did well....now they're on the ropes because of their creeping socialism including massive amounts of ME criminals and terrorists, just walking into the country and onto the dole.

On the ropes?

Our economy these days is one on the strongest and stable, more so than post recession USA. Our deficiet unlike the USA is on track to be eliminated by tge end of the decade and our growth is strong and steady.

And as for the muslims? Blair reign of stupidity is over, we have been deporting the Islamic trouble makers the last few years and unlike main land EU we have not cast open our doors to unregulated islamic immigration , we have only been letting in a few after heavy vetting.

American medical certainly isn't beholden to some USSR-style central planning set of goals. A lot of extra money changes hands due to the good old profit motive and rewards for great advances. But as you know, this results in the greatest creations, equipment, and advancements anywhere. I'm no fan of big pharma, and would laugh to see legalized marijuana replace about half of their products. But we do have the most successful products for comfort and cure, that have ever existed.

I think you have rose-colored glasses on your finances, economy, and social ills. I don't believe your muslim problem will do anything but grow, and cause big problems in these areas. We'll have to disagree.

Again your claims are exaggerated.
Sure the USA has contributed greatly to medical science, so has Britain, France, Germany and Japan. Hell the UK invented modern medicine!
Even today (and speaking as someone who has worked in pharmaceutical R&D) most projects and funding is international.

And seeing as I live here I would rather believe what I see with my own eyes than what some American 5000 miles away saw on fox "news"

All good.

Including the obligatory "FOX !" lol.