Vigilante groups forming all over Europe but why refer to them all as far right

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: MrCrow

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: MrCrow

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: MrCrow

So you would say fight fire with fire then?

Sometimes, it's the only way. If TPTB were to get involved and have the merest smidgeon of a care for ordinary folk, then it wouldn't be necessary.

I have to say that fighting fire with fire is a silly concept in my opinion.

If you called for my assistance because your sofa was on fire and I set fire to your curtains would you thank me?

You fight fire with water.

Instead of creating a greater divide and persecuting people who have entered the county surely you would educate and assist them as to the best way to integrate into society and understand the fundamental differences between the culture they have left and the one they have now joined?

Allow me to retort

Sofa's and people are quite clearly different er.. things. Of course, you fight a fire with water when it comes to physical heat and flames but, if someone punches you in the cheek, do you tum the other one and welcome the second blow?

I wouldn't. Would you?

I appreciate that alludes to an old religious chestnut but times are a-changing. If we are talking terrorism, or rampaging immigrants, they will just laugh as the aforementioned cheek is turned.

But would you not agree that positive integration and education is a better solution than demonising, segregation and mob violence?

Yes, of course it's better. In an ideal world, that would also be my suggestion. However, it just doesn't work these days.

Has it even been tried though?

Or do we just give them somewhere to live and allow the MSM to feed resentment towards them to the general population.

Has it been tried? I would like to have thought so but I really don't know. I don't live in the European countries most affected and therefore have no first-hand reference - I therefore have to rely on (yes I know) MSM, as well as what folks post here from their various sources. The overall pattern, though, is the same, whether it's a minority or majority; criminal acts are being performed on people who have welcomed others into their countries. Unless it's all a blatant lie.

But how would you try? Invite IS to a meeting with some nice flip charts and a pot of coffee? Pepper the refugee camps with a strongly worded leaflet campaign?

I, for one, certainly don't have the answer. I'm simply replying to what I see and forming my own opinion of what needs to happen. Rightly or wrongly, and yes, violence begets violence but sometimes it gets the job done.

a reply to: forkedtongue

Utter, and total waffle.

Rapes happening does not change the fact that roving vigilante behaviour is not the answer. Forcing ones government to do its damned job, is the answer, and until that happens, citizens should be taking industrial action and making their governments look bad in the press.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: jobless1

I said JAPAN was prepared to surrender before the bombs were dropped.

The bombs should have fallen on Germany, if anywhere, because it was the Nazis who had no intention of surrender at the time. Pay attention to what I am saying, not what you think I am saying, and this conversation might actually bear fruit of some sort.

I am not in your back and forth on the surrender of Japan, but I still like to read all the post.
To be honest I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

Germany Surrendered May 7th 1945
Japan Surrendered August 15th 1945
We did not drop the Bomb till August 6th 1945

it was the Nazis who had no intention of surrender at the time.

Do you mean at the time of the bomb dropping, or something else?
At the time we dropped the bomb Germany had already surrendered, so I am not sure what you mean.

a reply to: Learningman
Whatever, you're just a racist.

If I've learned anything from BBC, it's that we'd rather see our country destroyed and our women raped rather than being accused of racism

a reply to: nonspecific
So lets say my council agreed to take in and house a hundred migrants, then problems commenced from that incoming demographic. Perhaps harassment and/or sexual assault on women for example.

If the local plod were unable to control it, which I'm sure would be the case, then males from my community most certainly would.
It wouldn't be racist anymore than how thieving white smack heads are currently controlled in the community. Perhaps you disagree when the criminals are Muslims?

If any demographic started problems here they are treated with equality same as any other criminals.

Many vigilante groups are called far right, because they are. This isn't to say that all of them are, but many do exercise opinions similar to those found in far right ideologies like fascism.

Let's have a look at the definition of Fascism:

fas·cism (făsh′ĭz′əm)

n.

a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

www.thefreedictionary.com...

Now let's have a look at a few of their views:

Nationalism

Nationalism is the main foundation of fascism. The fascist view of a nation is of a single organic entity that binds people together by their ancestry, and is a natural unifying force of people. Fascism seeks to solve economic, political, and social problems by achieving a millenarian national rebirth, exalting the nation or race above all else, and promoting cults of unity, strength, and purity. European fascist movements typically espouse a racist conception of non-Europeans being inferior to Europeans. Beyond this, fascists in Europe have not held a unified set of racial views. Historically, most fascists promoted imperialism, although there have been several fascist movements that were uninterested in the pursuit of new imperial ambitions.

Action

Fascism emphasizes direct action, including supporting the legitimacy of political violence, as a core part of its politics. Fascism views violent action as a necessity in politics that fascism identifies as being an "endless struggle". This emphasis on the use of political violence means that most fascist parties have also created their own private militias (e.g. the Nazi Party's Brown shirts and Fascist Italy's Blackshirts).

The basis of fascism's support of violent action in politics is connected to social Darwinism. Fascist movements have commonly held social Darwinist views of nations, races, and societies. They say that nations and races must purge themselves of socially and biologically weak or degenerate people, while simultaneously promoting the creation of strong people, in order to survive in a world defined by perpetual national and racial conflict.

en.wikipedia.org...

There are many tenets associated with fascism, but these are a few which somewhat correspond with what many of these groups espouse.

Many of these groups focus heavily on nationalism and self-identity, and target other cultures, religions or races as a result. Most in these groups call themselves patriots and claim that Islam is a religion which has no place in Western societies. To this extent, we are seeing direct action being taken by far right groups against those who are different to themselves. Before long, we will start to see drastic anti-left rhetoric, which just adds to their wanting to suppress (political) opposition. How do i know? Australia's been plagued by these groups for a while now, and we have groups called Reclaim Australia and the United Patriot's Front, both of which have their origin in simple rally movements for mums and dads. The latter splintered off and now expresses everything these vigilante groups do and more.

I wouldn't call a lot of these groups fascists, because we don't know if they subscribe to other tenets found in the ideology, but to deny that many of them do not hold far right sympathies is daft.

originally posted by: Learningman
a reply to: forkedtongue

Thankyou for a well thought out answer, Im glad we can agree on some things.

I, however would argue that the violence committed by extremists in the middle east (an analogue for the far right types being talked of here) and the generally scared yet decent citizens (an analogue for the concerned fathers/sons) has NOT caused us (the western powers) to leave, but has amplified our views (that being of those in charge and some of the citizenry, not all, i understand) and wishes to carry on killing, to stay, to fight. We have done awful things in the M.E. but i do not feel that justifies extremist views. I also view it the same way on on the other end of the spectrum, the abhorrent crimes committed by immigrants who rape and threaten is not a justification for vigilantism.

Just to clarify, I'm not a turn the other cheek type. If I or another were to see a crime, be it a British national, or an immigrant, I'd interject and hope the same from others. Roaming looking for trouble is not something I agree with.

It MAY start with the vigilantes stopping a rape (great!), but then in a few weeks it could easily become scaring off Middle eastern looking people from an area. Another few months, Non-Whites. A few more, people who listen to music that the vigilantes don't like. 6 months on, people who do not speak English as a 1st language. A year, people 2nd generation citizens or less. 5 years, 5th generation citizens or less. In a decade everyone not part of a vigilante group being threatened on the streets.

I hope you understand my concern.

I indeed do see your concern.

It is how it started with the nazis.

Honestly I blame multiculturalism.

It isn't meant to be, and forcing it is only causing strife for all sides.

Just because the far left wants it, doesn't mean we have to give it to them.

Stop forcibly bringing in tens of thousands of folks from a completely different culture against the wishes of a nation's people and see if it doesn't stop being a problem.

a reply to: Punisher75

Oh, my apologies!

In that case, the bombs did not need to fall at all!

a reply to: GOrwell

Care to back that up at all? And does this mean I can now blame all my ills on the P.C. crowd?

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: forkedtongue

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: forkedtongue

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: MrCrow

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: MrCrow

So you would say fight fire with fire then?

Sometimes, it's the only way. If TPTB were to get involved and have the merest smidgeon of a care for ordinary folk, then it wouldn't be necessary.

I have to say that fighting fire with fire is a silly concept in my opinion.

If you called for my assistance because your sofa was on fire and I set fire to your curtains would you thank me?

You fight fire with water.

Instead of creating a greater divide and persecuting people who have entered the county surely you would educate and assist them as to the best way to integrate into society and understand the fundamental differences between the culture they have left and the one they have now joined?

Allow me to retort

Sofa's and people are quite clearly different er.. things. Of course, you fight a fire with water when it comes to physical heat and flames but, if someone punches you in the cheek, do you tum the other one and welcome the second blow?

I wouldn't. Would you?

I appreciate that alludes to an old religious chestnut but times are a-changing. If we are talking terrorism, or rampaging immigrants, they will just laugh as the aforementioned cheek is turned.

But would you not agree that positive integration and education is a better solution than demonising, segregation and mob violence?

Why not just you know..... Send them home?

It is a known fact they don't want to integrate.

In fact, why should we integrate them?

They have plenty of muzzy countries to go live how they like to in.

Why do you want them in the West so badly?

Could you not use the term "Muzzy" please as it is offensive.

It also shows your true colours and I have no interest in continuing any form of discussion with you.

Offensive to who, you?

Are you a Muslim? No?

Then how could it offend you?

In fact the muzzy I work with laughs at it, and says the word about himself. " we " muzzys" don't all think like that".

And flashes his very charismatic smile at us all.

His family is from one of the stans.

2nd generation born here.

Great guy.

LOL Makes racist comments and then points out he has Muslim friend....

As I said I am not interested.

Good day.

What racist comments?

The ones you imagine don't count.

And your being overly sensitive about something that doesn't even effect you proves your just a political troll at best.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: nonspecific
So lets say my council agreed to take in and house a hundred migrants, then problems commenced from that incoming demographic. Perhaps harassment and/or sexual assault on women for example.

If the local plod were unable to control it, which I'm sure would be the case, then males from my community most certainly would.
It wouldn't be racist anymore than how thieving white smack heads are currently controlled in the community. Perhaps you disagree when the criminals are Muslims?

If any demographic started problems here they are treated with equality same as any other criminals.

I would like to think that whoever was in charge of the relocation was also in charge of the integration of those being relocated. This should include a full explanation of what is and is not socially or legally acceptable in there new surroundings.

If those that are relocated fail to adjust and cause issues then the police should be informed, if this fails and a bunch of blokes from the pub decide to give them a warning then that is to me simply what happens in a real community.

I grew up in the pit towns of the Midlands and am fully aware of the benefits of backstreet justice.

If however the blokes down the pub decided to form a gang and wander the streets tooled up looking specifically for immigrants that may or may not be causing trouble then I would have a problem.

The gangs in the OP are not local boys looking after their own community, they are right wing racist organisations using the current immigration cock up to promote racial hatred and justify violence.

originally posted by: forkedtongue

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: forkedtongue

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: forkedtongue

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: MrCrow

originally posted by: nonspecific

originally posted by: MrCrow

So you would say fight fire with fire then?

Sometimes, it's the only way. If TPTB were to get involved and have the merest smidgeon of a care for ordinary folk, then it wouldn't be necessary.

I have to say that fighting fire with fire is a silly concept in my opinion.

If you called for my assistance because your sofa was on fire and I set fire to your curtains would you thank me?

You fight fire with water.

Instead of creating a greater divide and persecuting people who have entered the county surely you would educate and assist them as to the best way to integrate into society and understand the fundamental differences between the culture they have left and the one they have now joined?

Allow me to retort

Sofa's and people are quite clearly different er.. things. Of course, you fight a fire with water when it comes to physical heat and flames but, if someone punches you in the cheek, do you tum the other one and welcome the second blow?

I wouldn't. Would you?

I appreciate that alludes to an old religious chestnut but times are a-changing. If we are talking terrorism, or rampaging immigrants, they will just laugh as the aforementioned cheek is turned.

But would you not agree that positive integration and education is a better solution than demonising, segregation and mob violence?

Why not just you know..... Send them home?

It is a known fact they don't want to integrate.

In fact, why should we integrate them?

They have plenty of muzzy countries to go live how they like to in.

Why do you want them in the West so badly?

Could you not use the term "Muzzy" please as it is offensive.

It also shows your true colours and I have no interest in continuing any form of discussion with you.

Offensive to who, you?

Are you a Muslim? No?

Then how could it offend you?

In fact the muzzy I work with laughs at it, and says the word about himself. " we " muzzys" don't all think like that".

And flashes his very charismatic smile at us all.

His family is from one of the stans.

2nd generation born here.

Great guy.

LOL Makes racist comments and then points out he has Muslim friend....

As I said I am not interested.

Good day.

What racist comments?

The ones you imagine don't count.

And your being overly sensitive about something that doesn't even effect you proves your just a political troll at best.

Yawn.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Punisher75

Oh, my apologies!

In that case, the bombs did not need to fall at all!

LOL okay cool, I was confused there for a moment.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: forkedtongue

Utter, and total waffle.

Rapes happening does not change the fact that roving vigilante behaviour is not the answer. Forcing ones government to do its damned job, is the answer, and until that happens, citizens should be taking industrial action and making their governments look bad in the press.

While the rapes continue.....

Or they could you know, not wait for the gov that caused this intentionally in the first place and just put a stop to it themselves.....

You know, like free men, instead of slaves to their corrupt gov.

a reply to: forkedtongue

I honestly see where you are coming from, I am not a fan of MASS immigration, but I have grown up in a multicultural society. The U.K. has been a mongrel nation for over a millennia, and I don't wish to have to change our values because of extremists. (both why I do not wish to BAN immigration, nor see an influx of people who aren't prepared to assimilate to our values).

We have many Sikhs of an Indian heritage, been here years, they are 100% British. We have many Muslims (I cant fully speak for the south like London as I'm not from there) who are fully integrated, and identify as 100% British. I don;t want to have to change our values for the sake of extremists.

One thing that seems taboo in our media is vetting them, both the Right and Left media oppose it for different reasons, but from what I can tell, Right leaning and Left leaning people with a brain both agree that it is a good solution.

a reply to: Learningman

Back it up ? You guys are questioning Our immigration policies..... Uh, hello... That's racist, get a clue please

a reply to: nonspecific
Fair one, the anti (insert demographic here) element is what makes the difference.
There is little anti (insert demographic) in my parts because we have tourists from all over the world every summer and we all know we need them.

I guess I view 'community action' from a different perspective because our under resourced and under staffed police force actually depend on it. They turn a blind eye and even thank us...unofficially of course.

a reply to: GOrwell

Yes, back up, meaning provide evidence, not some childish strawman argument.

You might have noticed that many of us are disagreeing with each other without resorting to childish games and calling each other racists etc.

I wonder why you can't do the same.

Perhaps you are inept, or perhaps you are just being rude to throw the subject off topic.

Have a nice day.

Because all they have is their little labels and words, and when they sit at home calling that group this and this group that, can feel that they've actually done something.

Right or left, if the women of your culture are being abused by others, stick up for them. But when everyone sits at home and lets it continue without word or protest, there are extreme elements willing to do the work for you. The left is as much to blame for the rise of these vigilantes for their refusal to defend their own people and condemn the violence.

a reply to: anxiouswens

So these 'vigilante' groups are looking for who? Do rapists carry a banner describing themselves as such, or are they looking for people who are of a different skin colour/culture to attack on the assumption they must be immigrant, Muslim and law breaking?

You keep making such threads, I think one of your earliest was that walking around your home city seeing women in bhurkas made you 'scared' - probably best if you are just honest and say what you really think. People may or may not agree with your views but at least you would be openly expressing them instead of skirting around the issue.