Trans*: The Shape of Things to Come

a reply to: Freija

Where do you draw the line and what are the qualifications for authenticity?

I don't, because is not my issue and I don't like dwelling in unclear waters. But if you want to tell me that everyone stating that is a transgender, including the 52 y/o man who thinks is a 6 y/o girls are genuine, all I have to say is that it's only making the whole trans phenomena even less credible.
You, and people like you with inside knowledge should draw the line and show us who is genuine and who is just riding the wave, and how exactly to differentiate between them.
My guess is that you don't know either, so you take them all in just to be sure.

That people are standing up and advocating for transfolks to exist and receive the same dignity and respect as everyone else or that there even are transgender people?

Like I said you are preaching to the choir here. I never had a problem for them to have equal rights and be treated just like any other human being. But there is a context to that quote and you choose to ignore it.
That being said...

What gets me going is these kids that are born gender dysphoric or develop it at an early age having to grow up in a world where so life is so unnecessarily difficult for them and I want to do something about that. To me, that makes hearing a Sarah McLachlan song and seeing pictures of mistreated animals like a picnic in the park by comparison to having my heartstrings tugged on my these kids and their families.

... me personally I feel more for an autistic child and their family than I will ever do for Jazz Jennings or Caitlyn Jenner.
There are different degrees of suffering in this world, and I've seen some really bad things. Maybe where you live being a trans is the worst thing around, so fight for that, nobody stops you. Just hope you understand that not everybody who doesn't fight for what you fight is necessarily the enemy.

originally posted by: deliberator

Still, what I find most inspiring is their eagerness to explore far outside male/female dichotomies or traditional conceptualizations of gender. They are questioning gender in ways undoable even five years ago and certainly impossible when I transitioned, outside norms, outside boundaries. They speak with sophistication and have nuanced understandings of their selves, as some identify in traditional ways and others with terms like genderqueer, gender nonconforming, genderfluid, bigendered, demigendered, agendered, gender expansive, gender diverse, two spirit and countless more. Some even call themselves 'gender unicorns' -- rare, fantastical, almost mythical creatures that defy explanation. They deconstruct gender and destabilize our most basic interpretations of what gender actually is. They, and their progeny, will be expanding the meanings of gender and human identity in ways we are unable to even conceptualize.

Geez, these people are not just utterly delusional, but also insane megalomaniacs. Gender unicorn? Wow...

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
This whole "identification" thing will forever remain weird to me. If a "trans-gendered" person were the only person in the world...would they attempt to modify their sexual appearance? If not...then why now with other people around? I think that question and especially the answer leads to a conversation many people don't wish to discuss.

Welcome to the discussion and thank you for your comments and questions! Before I start trying to answer what I can, quoting and hyphenating transgender is unnecessary and usually only seen in anti-trans propaganda and saying "transgendered" is like saying gayed. Nit-picky I know, but for some, language really does matter. Kudos for correctly using it as an adjective and not a noun as in "transgenders" though. Now that I have my PC Police stars for the day, I'll move on.



So to your first point, I am going to say absolutely yes they would if they could. Someone that does what you describe doesn't do it for anyone else, to impress anyone else or need anyone else to validate it. It is not driven by externalized motivations or what other people think.

The human choice to modify one's body, while a right I would never deny them, is an unnatural thing. It isn't evolution. Evolution is natural and preferred method of change for any animal. And if an evolution of trans-gendered people isn't going to happen via evolution...then it in itself isn't natural or an advancement of the human animal...it is just a disguise worn by a small group of people who prefer the change. Not much different from a tattoo or body piercing. And again...you have every right to do this to yourself...I have no problem with that.

The first and most important point here is being transgender is not a choice! At least not any more than you choosing to not be transgender or choosing to be heterosexual. Sometimes people have a choice what to do about being transgender and whether they transition or not, they are still transgender (and probably miserable). Some transgender people cannot live without transitioning whether they have any surgery or not. Some transgender people can't live without having surgery. Some transgender people can't stand to live at all and just kill themselves. 41% have tried, 50% of kids bullied in school will have tried, 65% of kids that have been physically assaulted in school will try. This has to stop.

Who would choose any of that? Next is the concept that transitioning to be your "authentic self" is a disguise. Living a lie and being something you are not is a disguise. Transgender people are who they say they are and I'm sorry, I think most would agree it is a LOT different from a tattoo or body piercing. Not a choice, not a disguise and who they say they are are the most common things I've seen transgender people and kids say. (over and over)

I am slightly concerned from a scientific standpoint why this urge is there. I am curious how it parallels other "perceptions" of oneself. From my discussions with others and some self-education, I have personally decided that I lean toward this "identification" thing to be a mental "situation". No...I don't mean that as in "crazy"...I mean that as something an individual is born with.

Yes, something born with. The medical name for this "urge" is called Gender Dysphoria. Why this happens is an unknown but all indications point to biological causes. As I commented earlier in this thread, babies are born with a variety of intersex conditions so if there can be factors that affect the reproductive systems, why aren't predispositions for gendered behaviors and identities also thought of in the same way? Even in older transitioning transgender people, most will say they felt that way since they were kids. (some don't and that's a different story) The desire to medically transition, or being transsexual, isn't so much like wanting a piercing or other body modifications, it's more just wanting things to fit with who you are and quiet down or quash the dysphoria that can be crippling for some.

With that said...most things a minority is born with are considered a problem and attempts are made to resolve it. Which makes this all that more "strange". I'll probably never know the answers...I doubt anyone ever will. And if they did, would a proven scientific answer ever see the light of day? Would finding out there is a curable "problem" be accepted? I doubt it.

A child's sense of their own gender is usually firmly established between the ages of 3 and 5 years old. Any child developmental text will confirm this. Gender is at the very core of personality and highly resistant if not impossible to change once established. If Gender Dysphoria could be cured, it would have to be before then otherwise you would be attempting to erase or change identity and most people I know don't want to be dismissed or told they are not who they know themselves to be.

There is no test for Gender Dysphoria so until behavior becomes so noticeable, usually around 3 or until a child starts saying they are a girl or they are a boy, there is no way to know. Children do go through phases but when a child's behavior is atypical for their gender and they've been saying they are a girl/boy, the three things therapist look for is if a child is insistent, consistent and persistent over time. If at 3 a boy says he is a girl and still saying it at 5, you can be pretty sure she is.

Would finding out there is the "soul" of one sex reborn in the body of another be accepted? I doubt that also. But I have to admit I find it interesting.

I've heard several people postulate such things but I guess you'd have to believe that was possible or in souls or something? When you see some of these 5 and 6 year old kids with no lack in their convictions or a hint of a doubt that they ARE girls and not boys (or vice versa), it is kind of spooky in a way.

What I find to be a shame is that few people that "identify" in that way are truly willing to discuss it in depth to allow anyone else to understand better. Logical questions and discussions turn emotional and are quickly dismissed and the person asking is registered as a "hater" or intolerant. That is really a shame.

I know what you mean but can kind of understand why. Because of some of the hardships these people have faced, repression, discrimination, ridicule and embarrassment they've been put on the defensive and can be highly sensitive because experience has shown them they're going to be shunned or not believed or who they say they are will be called into question. You seem like a reasonably tolerant and open-minded guy that is interested in knowing more about this and asking questions but the majority of folks around aren't so much when it comes to this subject. Depending on which side of the political fence you're on, you can also be called a hater or a bigot and words like progressive, liberal, conservative etc., are used pejoratively. When anything is even remotely connected to sexuality of any sort, then you're a phobe of some kind. I think a lot of that is just because that seems to be the nature of online communications and it is also at least a little true that there are some that are haters, bigots, racists, homophobes, transphobes and jerks out there.

See, that wasn't so bad, was it?

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: Freija

Where do you draw the line and what are the qualifications for authenticity?

--I don't, because is not my issue and I don't like dwelling in unclear waters. But if you want to tell me that everyone stating that is a transgender, including the 52 y/o man who thinks is a 6 y/o girls are genuine, all I have to say is that it's only making the whole trans phenomena even less credible.

Ugh! I agree with that! I love it when people drag this case out as evidence that trans people are nutjobs. There is obviously some pathology at work here. I think this person has some serious problems and needs help that has nothing to do with being transgender. If he said he was a 6 year old boy, few people would have any doubt something was wrong with him but since he said he was transgender, that's somehow proof that all transgender people are off their rocker.

You, and people like you with inside knowledge should draw the line and show us who is genuine and who is just riding the wave, and how exactly to differentiate between them.
My guess is that you don't know either, so you take them all in just to be sure.

Hey! I'm subject to the same pressures to be politically correct in something that has become a political and social hot potato as anyone in a position of advocacy and involving myself with the youth that are really behind all all these new non-binary labels would be. I have my own biases, likes and dislikes and honestly don't know what the hell a "gender unicorn" is. I'm still coming to terms with the word transgender and all the seventy-two things that get to say they are transgender because it's nice a cozy friendly thing to say. It is very easy to offend or upset someone and I prefer not to do that when possible and it would be wrong of me to say who is "genuine" and who is not. That's up to a person to decide and if someone is diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria, for their doctors to decide.

Also, just because there's a transgender umbrella, it doesn't mean everyone is holding hands and singing kumbaya. There are large divisions that don't necessarily get along and even those that are transsexual being treated medically are split into factions. I've really only come into my own awareness of all of this in the last nine months or so and even had to look up what transgender was supposed to mean. Since then, I have devoted myself to learning.

I'm not quite sure what you mean "riding the wave". I see a few teenagers I think might be using gender expression as a form of rebellion as teenagers are wont to do historically and others that have latched on to being trans that are trying to figure out if they are really trans or not. I see others where there is absolutely no question whatsoever. If it makes any difference, I'm not particularly fond of adult transitioning transgender people but still afford them same courtesy and respect because they have a whole other set of problems and issues to deal with.

Like I said you are preaching to the choir here. I never had a problem for them to have equal rights and be treated just like any other human being. But there is a context to that quote and you choose to ignore it.
That being said...

... me personally I feel more for an autistic child and their family than I will ever do for Jazz Jennings or Caitlyn Jenner.

There are different degrees of suffering in this world, and I've seen some really bad things. Maybe where you live being a trans is the worst thing around, so fight for that, nobody stops you. Just hope you understand that not everybody who doesn't fight for what you fight is necessarily the enemy.

Lack of information - ignorance is my adversary. There are problems and issues everywhere and one person can't fight for or solve them all so I focus on the ones where I might make a difference. You may not know but the diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria in children occurs at about the same rates as autism and can have dire consequences.

If you're familiar with Jazz Jennings, imagine her life without her parents support. Hormone blockers run in the neighborhood of $400-$500 a month and the implant technology in the 15K range. At 15 without support she's going to end up homeless trading sex for food and a place to sleep or dead. Probably dead because that's what happens to these kids that don't get the support or have the resources they need. And Caitlyn Jenner? That's a completely different story that has nothing to do with kids like Jazz. If people want to look for a trans role model, Janet Mock would top the list

I did quote you out of context and apologize but it was the language more than the content I wanted to point out. I really appreciate your communicating and trying to talk things out even if we don't see eye-to-eye.

a reply to: Freija
Well, I'm sorry if I came around as a bit tough, but that's just my way of talking, in real life also, and everybody who doesn't knows me kind of thinks I'm a bitch, but I'm not. I'm the kind of person who takes the spiders and the moths out instead of killing them, and my whole family makes fun of me because of that.
I sometimes lose my patience and cut my way to the point, and maybe involuntarily hurt people's feelings. Hope we can always talk out our differences, and in worst case agree to disagree. I do understand why you fight this way, even if I don't fully understand the cause itself.
Have a great day.

a reply to: Freija

No...that wasn't bad at all Very informative and without an attitude. I applaud and thank you for your honesty and being candid. But now I have to ask solely for the purpose of deciding if I have to modify my final paragraph in the future. Are YOU trans or gay...or not? Sorry to say, but I'm guessing you're not as I've never received such an eloquent response from anyone who is, here on ATS.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE
Thank you. I'm more long winded and often redundant than eloquent and I am less than mild mannered at times too but I try. There are and were others here who's expressiveness I can only hope to match one day. I do have buttons that can be pushed and can go from zero to bitch-on-wheels in 3.4 seconds but replying to a post that's not filled with attitude makes it a whole lot easier to reply in kind.

If there are more things you would like to know, please just ask. If you're genuine and polite nothing is off the table and while I'm not a professional or the ultimate authority in these things and don't always tow the company line, I know enough to usually have an answer or enough to know when I don't know.

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

She is a credit to the transgender community.

The fact that a person believes they were born the wrong gender is fine. However, I am under no obligation to ensure the world they experience is free from judgment nor am I required to accept and celebrate their transition. I have no issue with transgender people. I have an issue with being told that I am bad for not accepting something.

originally posted by: deliberator
a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

She is a credit to the transgender community.

So is Oprah!

I met my first trans woman through gay friends I had when I was 22 (1977). I did not like her and she wanted me. Then I met a few others about twenty years ago not too long after I was divorced that shared their lives and stories with me and made quite an impression.

One was older, on disability living in poverty next to homelessness and a complete train wreck. I don't even remember her name or how I met her? I gave her my old car so she could make her way to Oregon. Through her, I met Becky Allison a physician/cardiologist I had lunch with once. (yeah, like hang out with doctors all the time) Through her, I met a lady that owned a tech company that my business did some work for and through her I met and housed another gal for a couple months until she could get on her feet after having surgery in Thailand and moving to town.

With all the trans awareness in the last year or so, and reading things posted by a young trans woman here,I started looking, reading and researching and learned about the trans youth organizations and the work they're doing with kids. I've contributed to a few of these organizations and recently become involved with one of them but I'm not sure in what capacity yet exactly except as an ally and advocate.