Trans*: The Shape of Things to Come

Just its not important

originally posted by: breakingbs
a reply to: Abysha


Dude people already know it exists and in the terms you describe it in. Thats what you folks dont seem to get.

What am I not getting? He keeps saying that trans people are "denying reality". What reality are they denying? Is he saying he thinks trans people believe they are cisgender?

A transwoman knows she's a transwoman and a transman knows he's a transman. What reality are they denying?

Edit-

Trans...man? Oops, nevermind.


How bout this, ill decide whose a man and whose a woman. Good enough? Good.

originally posted by: breakingbs
God. Edit.
Trans man? Geez. Never mind.

Sorry for the problems you are having. Did you not know that there were transmen?

a reply to: Freija


WOULD YOUPLEASE BE QUIET I GET IT

AND THATS A FEMALE.


GOOD DAY.

I stopped reading

This is Marxism
Soon as I saw the word oppression
Go read
The long March through the instatutions

a reply to: Discotech

Sorry for the late reply. I am not well today.

But I feel compelled to ask the philosophical question of apart from genitalia, what is it that defines us as male/female if it was our genitalia then trans wouldn't be trans unless they think their genitalia is the wrong type of genitalia ?

What about the classic misogynist myth that women are incomplete men. Women are men, minus a few pieces. Female genitals are just the absence of male genitals. Obviously this is not true. Women are their own sex, not simply lesser men. So why assume that transgender is as simple as removing the sexual organs and creating the opposite.

Now as to your opinion on the 54 year old is it not hypocritical to rationalise your disapproval for them by saying it's either fetish or mental illness, by this way of thinking it's perfectly acceptable for someone with a less open mind towards these states of being to say that a trans is just suffering from mental illness no ? And it clearly shows despite your stance on acceptance, you yourself, draw a line where you just cannot accept and define a state of being as a mental illness, so where do we draw the line ? Are we to be tolerant or not because having boundaries means we're not truly tolerant and are still dictating to some how they should live their life

I take your point about fetishism but individuals rarely publicise their practices and when they do it is usually to other individuals who share the same fetish. Remember also that this 54 year old has already experienced childhood and wishes to return to it. There is a valid question regarding regression to a childhood state of innocence. It happens with schizophrenia and is also related to coping mechanisms. I personally do not draw the line in relation to an acceptable state. I rely on medical specialists in the appropriate fields to define this line.

a reply to: breakingbs

How do you have the patience to be subversive? And no, my "intention" was not intellectual, causal or...anything like that.

It boils down to defending basic human rights.

a reply to: deliberator

You've avoided the question though, what is it that defines a man as a man and a woman as a woman ? What is it for a Trans persons that makes them think "I should not be this sex" what is it for them that defines "sex"

Just because a person prefers dressing in what society has deemed as a "female clothing" does not make that person a female, it just means their preference is female clothing. You cannot really attach sex to preference towards certain "things" as men who know they are men enjoy doing things and taking on habits that women do and likewise women who know they are women enjoy doing things and taking on habits that men do. So there has to be something defining beyond personality traits that define sex, otherwise it's just thinking you're male or female based societal opinion which in my point of view is pyschologically related rather than a state of being. If we all decided that wearing make up was not a feminine thing, that clothing had no sex attached to it and that certain other habits had no masculine/feminine attached to it would we have as many people truly claiming they are the wrong sex ? And if so, what is it that makes them think they are the wrong sex ?

Also do you not find the irony in terms of medical specialist that not even they can agree on certain things because of their own opinions influences throughout life, it's funny that a person who hears voices is labelled as schitzophrenic, but suddenly when those voices are from a God they're not schitzophrenic, these are the very same "professionals" you're allowing to define your arbitrary line where they deem 2 things from within the same spectrum as one being acceptable and the other being a mental "defect"

a reply to: WhiteHat

they want to change kids at impossible ages

This really demonstrates that you have no knowledge of transgender children issues. Who is "they" and what does 'impossible ages" mean?

You do realise that children do not have surgery?

the question is can we, the normal ones really identify with trans people?

Isn't this the same argument used against black Americans in the 20th century?

a reply to: Discotech

I hope you don't mind if jump in here and try to address some of your questions. Our OP says he isn't feeling well and may not be around so I will see what I can do. (hope you feel better, deliberator) In order to help clarify your understanding of all this, let me offer the following information:

originally posted by: Discotech

You've avoided the question though, what is it that defines a man as a man and a woman as a woman ? What is it for a Trans persons that makes them think "I should not be this sex" what is it for them that defines "sex"

That's a tough question. Let's back up for a minute and use some simplistic concepts and point out some common points of confusion. Along with complimentary secondary sex characteristics, on a basic level, anatomical sex is between the legs and gender is between the ears. One's own internalized sense of what gender they are is their gender identity. How this manifests outwardly to be observed by others, i.e. how they dress, act and present themselves is called their gender expression. From a social or cultural perspective, stereotypical expectations of gendered behaviors, things that typically men do and things that typically women do are called gender roles.

There can be a fair degree of disconnect between these things as well as a fair degree of overlap when one thinks in terms of a spectrum or range rather than rigidly defined and delineated boundaries. What sort of muddies the waters in these discussions is the very word "transgender" for it is an umbrella term encompassing many different things. Transgender doesn't necessarily mean a person wants to "change sex" or that they think they are in the wrong body.



Gender Dysphoria is a medical condition where one's internal sense of being one gender or the other is in contrast to their physical being. Gender Dysphoria, or the discomfort/unease between sex and gender also is a spectrum of degrees ranging from mildly annoying to completely incapacitating and intolerable. Not all transgender people have Gender Dysphoria. Some are born with it and in others, it intensifies or develops over time.

For those that do and depending on the level of distress experienced, this discomfort can be relieved by transitioning socially to live as and be known as a gender opposite from one's sex assigned at birth. This expression also happens in a less than black or white, either/or, non-binary fashion and why we see people and particularly youth not bound to societal conventions that don't feel themselves to be either gender or both genders or in today's parlance, genderqueer, gender fluid, gender expansive and so on.

Beyond making a social transition, there are many that feel a degree of medical transition is needed and where things start going down a different path. Commonly, after psychiatric/psychological evaluation and counseling, things like hormone therapy, breast augmentation/removal, facial feminization surgery, etc., are employed. Somewhere around one third of adult MtF transsexuals that permanently transition socially and medically also go on to have genital reconstruction.

So to answer your question, you have to stop and think about your own sense of gender and what makes you feel like a man or a woman? It's kind of a nebulous or a "just because" sort of thing, right? Something you just know that is innate to your personality or who you are and difficult to define. If you suddenly woke up one day in the body of the opposite sex, would your sense of gender change or would you still feel like the man or woman you were before and had always been?

If you were a man and woke up one day in a female body, would you suddenly want to wear dresses and make-up or would you bind your breasts, cut your hair and stuff socks in your pants so you could fit in socially and express yourself as the man you knew yourself to be? If that wasn't enough, wouldn't you want testosterone so your beard would grow back, your muscles to develop and wouldn't binding your boobs so they didn't show be painful and a tedious daily necessity? (I can't even imagine having to do that)

Maybe this visualization can help you understand things a little better? As to why people have Gender Dysphoria or feel a mismatch between the mind/soul and their anatomical sex, no single definitive answer has been found although scientific and medical research strongly points to biological causes. We accept without issue that babies are born with a wide variety of physical intersex conditions sometimes obviously apparent at birth and sometimes not so it isn't much of a stretch to think the predispositions toward innate gendered identifications and behaviors is not part of or similar to the same thing.

I'll be happy to try and answer whatever else you'd like to know or ask to the best of my ability and knowledge if it aids in your understanding. Curiosity, interest and discussion can lead to learning and my mission is to help others with that especially when it comes to the awareness of Gender Dysphoria in children. I do have to work this afternoon and will be in and out but will reply soon as possible if you or anyone would like to delve deeper.

a reply to: Freija

In answer to your questions

On the what defines our sex part, this is exactly why I asked that question because I tried thinking to myself what it is that makes me know I'm a man and apart from me having male genitalia, there is nothing I can pinpoint as defining of being male, I just know I'm male but more to the point usually I don't even consider gender, I just think of myself as human as it's not my anatomy that dictates how I should behave or the things I should do but my mind.

To the question of what I would do if I suddenly woke up a woman ? Well I'd be freaked out of course at first but I don't think I would go to such great lengths to disguise that I now have a womans body, I'd most likely just accept that, that is the body I now have and keep on doing the things I did while I was male as none of those things should be gender specific really and I wouldn't care about the label of man or woman that society would bestow upon me much like I do not care for labels now as a male.

Now don't get me wrong, I have no issues with Trans people I really don't care how you wish to act providing you are not harming/annoying other creatures, however I do wonder if it's all psychological and treatable rather than a state of being. It just seems strange to me how we as humans, consider some things as "normal" and that we are to accept it as is but other things which fall under the same umbrella as "defects" and need help fixing. Take for instance people who suffer from anorexia, we call this a psychological defect and say people need to be "fixed" however they have similar thoughts about their bodies and go to extreme lengths as trans people, the same with people who aren't anorexic but suffer from thoughts that they're hideous and go to extreme lengths such as trying to deform their self, again similar thoughts to a trans person but one we consider a psychological defect. From someone looking in from the outside taking on a philosophical approach it all seems ironic and hypocritical the way we are supposed accept one seeming psychological condition and frown upon another when they all fall under the same umbrella of having issues with their bodies.

originally posted by: Discotech
a reply to: Freija

In answer to your questions

On the what defines our sex part, this is exactly why I asked that question because I tried thinking to myself what it is that makes me know I'm a man and apart from me having male genitalia, there is nothing I can pinpoint as defining of being male, I just know I'm male but more to the point usually I don't even consider gender, I just think of myself as human as it's not my anatomy that dictates how I should behave or the things I should do but my mind.

You don't think of or consider your gender or behavior because it is innate and just a part of who you are. For cisgender folks, it is hard to imagine any discord between who you know you are and what your body or behavior tells others you are. If you don't think there are certain gendered expectations of behavior, try wearing make-up to work tomorrow and see how well that goes over with your co-workers.

You've kind of hit the nail on the head saying it is your mind that dictates how you should behave or the things you should do. These "should do's" and "shouldn't do's" are the societal and cultural programming we all receive from the time we are born and are wrapped in a pink or a blue blanket. There are certain expectations or norms of what is considered to be acting like a man or acting like a woman. Step too far outside these expectations and you are going to make people uncomfortable.

To the question of what I would do if I suddenly woke up a woman ? Well I'd be freaked out of course at first but I don't think I would go to such great lengths to disguise that I now have a womans body, I'd most likely just accept that, that is the body I now have and keep on doing the things I did while I was male as none of those things should be gender specific really and I wouldn't care about the label of man or woman that society would bestow upon me much like I do not care for labels now as a male.

Really? Wouldn't you be subject to ridicule, perhaps lose you job, your wife and would you face a dilemma of which bathroom to use when out in public? If you don't care so much of gendered labels, maybe you are more gender neutral or maybe you're just oblivious to things in the world that are different for men than they are for women?

Now don't get me wrong, I have no issues with Trans people I really don't care how you wish to act providing you are not harming/annoying other creatures, however I do wonder if it's all psychological and treatable rather than a state of being.

For people with severe Gender Dysphoria, no reparative or corrective therapies have ever been found and in this day and age are considered to be unethical. Everything has been tried including massive drug and hormone treatments and even up until the late 1950's, electro-convulsive shock treatments. Even after fifty or more years of worldwide research there is nothing that can fix Gender Dysphoric trans people because they are not broken (but they do have problems). Since the 1960's when the standards of care were first developed and published, the only way to improve the lives of these folks is transition and to "change the body to fit the mind" which is kind of an antiquated trope but true nevertheless.

It just seems strange to me how we as humans, consider some things as "normal" and that we are to accept it as is but other things which fall under the same umbrella as "defects" and need help fixing. Take for instance people who suffer from anorexia, we call this a psychological defect and say people need to be "fixed" however they have similar thoughts about their bodies and go to extreme lengths as trans people, the same with people who aren't anorexic but suffer from thoughts that they're hideous and go to extreme lengths such as trying to deform their self, again similar thoughts to a trans person but one we consider a psychological defect. From someone looking in from the outside taking on a philosophical approach it all seems ironic and hypocritical the way we are supposed accept one seeming psychological condition and frown upon another when they all fall under the same umbrella of having issues with their bodies.

Yes, equating things like Body Identity Disorder, Body Dysmorphic Disorder, other personality or identity pathologies and anorexia, etc., are commonly thought of by the outside lay person looking in to be the same as or like Gender Dysphoria but the professional medical and psychiatric consensus is that they are not. It is not me that is making this distinction nor can I sufficiently explain what the differences are without digging up research and citations that I simply don't have time for at the moment. As someone that has studied all aspects of this whole thing for many years, I can see why you would think these classifications are ironic or hypocritical but I think most of that is just your own lack of information about all these things that seem foreign and a little crazy to most.

I get it that being trans is a difficult thing for most people to wrap their head around. There are even things that I don't quite understand or that don't make sense to me either if that makes any difference?

originally posted by: deliberator
There was a case in 1967 at a hospital in Baltimore where surgeons performed sex reassignment surgery, at the request of the parents, due to a botched circumcision. The boy was brought up as a girl and had a twin which provided medical study. In his teens the boy rejected the female role and consequently lived as a man.

There is a lot of evidence that this is nature as opposed to nurture.

a huge deal was made of this case, that the child was successfully raised as a female, was tooted far and wide...but the truth finally came out, she always felt male and she was finally given the truth of what happened to her/him when they were a baby.

originally posted by: research100
a huge deal was made of this case, that the child was successfully raised as a female, was tooted far and wide...but the truth finally came out, she always felt male and she was finally given the truth of what happened to her/him when they were a baby.

This was an experiment that completely failed what it set out to do which was to prove gender identity could be learned and was a matter of nurture and not nature. It was known as the John/Joan case.

Wikiepedia - David Reimer

originally posted by: Freija
You don't think of or consider your gender or behavior because it is innate and just a part of who you are.

What makes a person fundamentally who are they is established through their DNA. These biochemical processes are with us from birth until the day we die. This is what makes us human, if our DNA was different we could easily be a monkey, a dog, or a fruit. We should be thankful to it, otherwise we would not exist.

Social constructionism definition ~
“In the domain of social constructionist thought, a social construct is an idea or notion that appears to be natural and obvious to people who accept it but may or may not represent reality, so it remains largely an invention or artifice of a given society.”

DNA is not a social construct, DNA is not a thought, DNA is reality.

The irony of this whole situation is that people who say “gender is a social construct” only say that because that idea itself is a social construct. A new one at that.

So let’s break that down easy so I we can understand it in the simplest terms…..
DNA is fundamental to who we are
DNA is not a social construct
DNA is what establishes gender, otherwise gender would not exist to begin with.
Gender change through DNA is not possible, it is unchangeable.

When science comes to be so advanced that we can change people’s gender completely using their own DNA. Then you have an argument. But by then we would have reached the point in time were we will be able to change humans into chickens or bananas. Changing them from something they ARE, into something they are not.

My point is, right now, in this point in history. A man can 'believe' he is a woman, but can never be. And a woman can 'believe' they are man. But can never be. They are fundamentally a man or a woman thanks to what makes them WHO they are, their DNA. It is a very sad situation for these people who believe that. But that is all it is. It is “belief” and not established in reality. That my friend is fact, everything else is nothing but ideas. But I am sure you will continue to argue these "ideas" no matter what. Just know that you cannot argue using ideas versus facts, you will always lose.

First breast and penis extension implants...and now the crazy trend of opposite genital implants.

What is this crazy world coming too? Is this how far society is going to experiment being the other sex?

Is this how the human population is evolving?

The whole notion of being "born" the opposite sex with opposite genitals is getting too far fetched.

Do I feel sorry for the consequences that TG people face in society as a result of THEIR choice to lie to others before they sleep with them? Hell no...a normal person doesn't do such stupid s**t.

a reply to: Debunkology

Hey, it would be absolutely pointless for me to argue these "ideas" with you because all those papers and facts you've published in genetics and psychiatry unquestionably supersede anything I could come up with. I'm also sure other scientists, researchers and medical professionals that have been seriously looking into this since the 1920's would have appreciated you sharing your clear and concise facts and saved them all the trouble.

You win! Discussion over.

Great op.
Pity some ats members hounded jade star away.
She would have liked this thread and she would have educated the ignorant.

a reply to: Freija

:/


Im pretty sure youre genetically female tho.