How could atheism exist?

Are you an Atheists because you don't accept Christianity, or are you an Athiest because you don't believe in belief systems?

This is a pretty good example of a false choice, in terms of logical structure. First, I could be an atheist and accept Christianity, in the sense of believing in its positive values. Also, its quite possible I could be an atheist AND have a belief system. In fact, everyone must have a belief system. Not having one would reduce one to incoherence. What makes the world such an exciting place, though, is that there are so many belief systems - some with only one adherent - and many of the systems conflict.

Let me go back to the acceptance of Christianity. I do accept Christian values (the ten commandments, etc). But lets admit that these values are simply those of good people everywhere, and we'd have them with or without the religion. Now, do I accept Christianity because I'm a closet Christian, as someone will undoubtedly claim, or is it because I was brought up in it and because they are simply good values to live by?

In fact, I am an atheist, and if you ask, how can I not believe in a god, then I am entitled to ask in return: how can you believe? Where is the evidence? And if I'm to believe in God, well then, which god? Even if we could settle on Christianity, which Christianity? The weird trinity thing the Catholics profess? The Eastern Orthodox? Protestantism? If any thing convinces me that there is nothing to Christianity, it is this factionalism - its just too easy to make up your own beliefs. Unless you can show me some evidence that will stand up in court, I must assert that its ALL made up.

Originally posted by AlexofSkye

Are you an Atheists because you don't accept Christianity, or are you an Athiest because you don't believe in belief systems?

This is a pretty good example of a false choice, in terms of logical structure. First, I could be an atheist and accept Christianity, in the sense of believing in its positive values. Also, its quite possible I could be an atheist AND have a belief system.

This is a fantastic example. It seems that many Christians think that if one does not accept Christianity lock stock and barrel, then they are obviously atheist. Likewise, some people claim to be atheist because they have rejected Christianity, not realizing that they do have a belief system perhaps even a deeply spiritual existance.

Thanks, AlexofSkye, for helping me demonstrate that this is not the case.

I am Christian but I side with religion in general. I don't mind what religion you're in because I'm pretty sure just having faith is what matters, not what "God" you have faith in. You are safe, I think, as long as you do not lack religion (atheism). Then again, maybe God (I must acknowledge Him as a single god in respect of the first Commandment, not saying that polytheistics are wrong.) doesn't care about faith at all and we are all judged on our character.

I think many religions agree on the point of a higher power, or some type of creator, however you may believe it to be. Science has difficulty explaining things without the spirit, and a creator. I cann't force anyone to understand it, you have to look and observe it for yourself, and see it as true for you. Don't feel bad if you don't see it, perhaps you will come to understand it at a later time. But I can say the obviousness of it can be, well, obvious, and quite obvious, and you might say, duh, that's obvious in an obvious kind of way.

I ask anyone who wants to listen to stop for a moment and observe the universe. Set aside your arguments, set aside your beliefs, set aside your upsets related to religion, etc. Now ask yourself how did this all get started in the first place. Could dirt, rocks material, etc. have been formed without something there to create it? You can make it hard or you can make it easy. It is not a trick question. You may be able to come up with some other verbs, but I just bet they will be related to creation.

Creation encompases the vastness of everything, aliens, throw them in there too, they were created as well. The answer has allways been there right in front of us. Creation stares us right in the face every moment of every day. The funny thing is you don't need volumes of books to explain the basicness of it.

Troy

Originally posted by slacker2788
I am Christian but I side with religion in general. I don't mind what religion you're in because I'm pretty sure just having faith is what matters, not what "God" you have faith in. You are safe, I think, as long as you do not lack religion (atheism). Then again, maybe God (I must acknowledge Him as a single god in respect of the first Commandment, not saying that polytheistics are wrong.) doesn't care about faith at all and we are all judged on our character.

I was raised Catholic, and from the beginning, was taught that God existed. Due to the Catholic ways of teaching, and due to the fact that I was a naive child, I developed an obsessive compulsive complex over God. Not Jesus or anything, just God.

I had this pillow that I had to keep a certain way every time I fell asleep, and every time I made my bed. At night, I would pray for the well being of my family, and if I felt that I had prayed improperly, I would re-start the prayer, fearing that "he" had not heard me. I grew up in New Orleans during the eighties and early nineties, when crime there was the highest in the nation. My paranoia would make me go downstairs two times, maybe three times, to make sure that the door was locked, beacause when I got back to bed, I scared myself into thinking that I really didn't lock the door, I had just unlocked it. Then I would pray.

I was able to finally kick this habit completely by the time I had almost graduated high school. Shortly thereafter, I got strong, and started to convince myself that there is no god, and that I am in control of my own life. Now I'm atheist, and it's great. I feel so much more in controll of my life; I feel free.

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What do you theists mean when they say for proof look around and see "creation"? Are you guys alluding to some kind of first cause of the universe? That is the only thing to me that makes any kind of sense. I can understand how someone could see the first cause as "God". Other than that, when I look around I honestly dont see creation.

Understand the universe simply would not exist without creation. The simple act of planets forming is creation. Definition one of "create" according to Dictionary.com: 1. To cause to exist; bring into being. This is one obvious verb, can anyone come up with another verb? Just having things materialize without being created makes no sense. Is somebody here following me?

Troy

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Originally posted by cybertroy
Understand the universe simply would not exist without creation. The simple act of planets forming is creation. Definition one of "create" according to Dictionary.com: 1. To cause to exist; bring into being. This is one obvious verb, can anyone come up with another verb? Just having things materialize without being created makes no sense. Is somebody here following me?

Troy

Oh alright. Creation seems to imply something conscious did the creating, thats the only thing I dont agree with I guess. The laws of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so my guess is that energy always existed. I dont see energy as having any conscious intelligence, so I guess most peoples definition of God doesnt really apply to what I believe.

Originally posted by cybertroy
Science has difficulty explaining things without the spirit, and a creator. I cann't force anyone to understand it, you have to look and observe it for yourself, and see it as true for you. Don't feel bad if you don't see it, perhaps you will come to understand it at a later time. But I can say the obviousness of it can be, well, obvious, and quite obvious, and you might say, duh, that's obvious in an obvious kind of way.

Science doesn't have any trouble at all without a spirit or creator. Tell me, how is a spirit required in science? We don't need it to be alive, to think, to act, that is done by our (very physical) brain. And as far as creation is concerned, you must not have even looked into it. There are several theories on the origin of species, the origin of Earth, and the origin of the universe (notably evolution, The Big Bang, and eternal inflation).

I ask anyone who wants to listen to stop for a moment and observe the universe. Set aside your arguments, set aside your beliefs, set aside your upsets related to religion, etc. Now ask yourself how did this all get started in the first place. Could dirt, rocks material, etc. have been formed without something there to create it?

Look up the law of conservation of matter and the first law of thermodynamics. Matter and energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. It's a fundamental part of the universe, it didn't "get started." When there is the universe, there is matter and energy. They are constant. Notice my answer has nothing to do with "creation." It was not created. Matter and energy are things we come into contact with every day - we see them, feel them, taste them, etc. I know that matter is there. I do not know with any certainty that God is there, and neither do you. So look at it this way:

There is a possibility that there is a God, there is no proof of him, you do not see him, touch him, or experience him physically. You say he always has been. He has no creator.

There is FACT that matter exists, that it is all around us, in everything. I say matter has been as long as the universe has. It has no creator.

One of the above is more logically sound. See if you can point it out.

How does matter and energy get here without being created? Just saying it's allways been there doesn't explain it.

Here is another example of creation, everyday world. You make a cheese sandwich. Now, how did this particular cheese sandwich "come about". You first had to have a thought, or idea about a cheese sandwich (thought, idea). Here's a challenge, physically grab that thought, and show it to all the good folks at home. Anyway, the point, that particular sandwich would not have "come about" without you first thinking about it. I doubt that cheese sandwich would have ever been made, if you hadn't of thought, "MMMMM cheese sandwich, that would be great." You see, it would have never happened at all.

Troy

Originally posted by cybertroy
How does matter and energy get here without being created? Just saying it's allways been there doesn't explain it.

Not too sure. It appears that it has always existed. This is least complicated answer. Saying God doesnt solve this problem either, it complicates it more.

Here is another example of creation, everyday world. You make a cheese sandwich. Now, how did this particular cheese sandwich "come about". You first had to have a thought, or idea about a cheese sandwich (thought, idea). Here's a challenge, physically grab that thought, and show it to all the good folks at home. Anyway, the point, that particular sandwich would not have "come about" without you first thinking about it. I doubt that cheese sandwich would have ever been made, if you hadn't of thought, "MMMMM cheese sandwich, that would be great." You see, it would have never happened at all.

Troy

Okay. How does this apply to the universe? I didnt make Earth, it happened. Unless you're suggesting the laws of physics plan out their actions beforehand..

The point was consciousness and creation. An idea must first come about before anything is created, otherwise it doesn't happen. There must have been a conscious creator of sorts in the beginning. And we are creators in our own way, with our jobs, family, etc.

Science explains some things but there are documented cases where natural laws were "thrown out the window." I'm sure there are cases like this scattered throughout this site. (Out of body, ghosts, etc.)

Troy

Originally posted by cybertroy
The point was consciousness and creation. An idea must first come about before anything is created, otherwise it doesn't happen. There must have been a conscious creator of sorts in the beginning. And we are creators in our own way, with our jobs, family, etc.

Science explains some things but there are documented cases where natural laws were "thrown out the window." I'm sure there are cases like this scattered throughout this site. (Out of body, ghosts, etc.)

Troy

First, I disagree that before something is created, there must always be an idea. When a volcano erupts, it spews molten magma which flows down the hillside and 'creates' new lava beds. Sometimes balls of lava containing high concentrations of silica 'create' beautiful quartz and amethyst crystals inside as they cool. In the desert, the waves of heat cab 'create' mirages, etc. None of these creations require thought.

Having said that.......
Last June my fiance was in hospital recovering from a serious brain injury. One afternoon as I fed her, this is what happened:

Today at the hospital she talked about going to see ducks. She said ‘See the ducks in the park’ & I said sure when you get better. She said it at least three times and I could not figure out what she was getting at. But then when I got home and went online I saw that an online msn group friend in Portland, Oregon had emailed me and asked if Eileen had mentioned going to see the ducks in the park with her because she really liked it. She had gone to a park across the street from her workplace on her lunch break and Eileen showed up in spirit and enjoyed watching her feed the ducks. I met this woman in a group I joined asking for prayers for Eileen, so Eileen didn't know her at all. And Eileen's mental state at the time was like that of a young child. That sentence was about the limit of her capacity to construct. Portland is 250 miles south of us. "Yes she did", I replied.

God never said to fear him, man said this. God never said all my children will believe in me, he knew their would be many. Man has added and taken away from the teaching that should of been there for all of us to know. But a few placed themselves on high to make the text in part for the population to know and the other half as secret only those they think have higher knowledge to understand. This is why in this world it is in this existance state and the text are not complete to the teaching as it should of been. The socalled high Priest long ago were to selfish not to share the knowledge and thinking we were not ready for it so long ago, it the truth they were hiding from the average person of that time. I am Roman Catholic and I still believe in God. I question all religion, even my own to find the truth.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by ancientsailor]

[edit on 22-1-2005 by ancientsailor]

Understand when I say creator, I'm not necessarily talking about some really big guy with hands rolling a lump of clay into a ball. And I'm not saying I know all the specifics on how everything was created. But just looking at how everything came to be, it had to be first created.

Your volcano example doesn't negate a creator. Let's compare the universe with a train set. We set up our train set, plug it into the wall, cut it on and "bam", it runs on it's own. Lets take the universe. Planets and such are created by whatever means, and on some of these planets there is magma, lava, tectonic plates and such, energy is thrown in there, and "bam" it runs it's course, things crash, things bang, planets align, whatever.

Creation is a fundamental part this universe.

Troy

Originally posted by slacker2788
I am a Catholic and I just can't seem to understand how people can still not believe in some form of a god or supreme being. The Big Bang...technically falls into the Creationalism idea because I have a good feeling God works instantaneously. Evolution...I believe only the more ignorant religious people disagree with evolution but others of us admit it exists and only disagrees with our beliefs if we take the entire Bible literally, which most of us should not do. I just think the idea of a Universe spontaneously appearing and then life spontaneously appearing and then everything working out so perfectly and harmoneously up until now is actually more farfetched then the idea of a reason or force behind it. I have also thought that proving the existence of ghosts would subsequently prove the existence of "something out there" because it would be concrete evidence of an afterlife. Out of body experiences and people coming back from the dead happen a lot, also. From what I've heard from someone that works with them, they all witness Heaven and say to get in: 1. Be nice to other people and 2. Acquire knowledge. Miracles happen constantly, too. For example, the girl (whose name I cannot remember) that was born deaf and her parents prayed to some Saint that worked with the deaf in life and she was cured, receiving Communion from the Pope at one point on TV. Coincidence, my ass. Anyway, I can go on and on but I don't want to rant and piss people off. Please, if any of my information is misconstrued, false, or incomplete, let me know because I am only 18 and am basing this on what I have heard and learned in my short time here.

youve been reading a bit to much sci-fi there son... dont belive everything u hear. they saw heaven?? lol. I dont belive it. I belive in a heaven and God, sure, but I do not think any living person today see's heaven and does miracles like that anymore. what proof do we have? none. only supersticiouns. what the heck is up with ghost? u wouldnt want to leave heaven and return to earth once u go there... gahh- TV puts out so much stuff, true or not.