How could atheism exist?

Cogito ergo sum, they say. I consider myself an atheist, and I think, therefore I am (atheist?).

In my experience, atheists tend to be into scientism, attempting to use science to explain everything around them and at the same time sharing some sort of belief that theists ignore reality and science's explanations thereof. I think these are really silly atheists.

I'm a very special kind of atheist; an atheist that is in the search of truth in an intellectually honest way. The first thing we all must know is that science does not claim to give truth. Logic, on the other hand, does. With respect to this, I am a rationalist (as opposed to empiricist). I think Plato's cave is something we should all look into: What appears is not necessarily what is, and what is isn't necessarily what appears.

I have witnesses ghost like phenomena, however this does not mean I saw a soul, a skip in time, or even an odd electrical event. What were these experiences? I'm not sure.

However, I am sure of a few things,and they have been proved: My existence, mathematics theorems, etc.

I do not know if there is a sound proof for God out there, and until I see one, I do not believe in God (while, at the same time, admitting some definitions of God can exist).

Most theists, on the other hand, seem to believe in God because of personal experience, and they too fail to look at Plato. Personally, I think if one is intellectually honest with themselves and is theist they will admit: They believe in God without a sound proof, and they believed their experiences to reflect reality. Both admissions are dangerous to the pursuit of truth.

Originally posted by slacker2788
I am a Catholic and I just can't seem to understand how people can still not believe in some form of a god or supreme being.

For humankind, the concept of a "single deity" is actually something fairly new. Primitive people generally believed in "animism" (everything, including rocks, was alive but there was no "chief" over them.) After they began settling into large tribes and villages, the concept of "chiefs of gods" arose that reflected the social structure of the people.

Basically: the gods must be like us.

There have always been non-believers (a-theists) throughout all religions. The oldest (written) organized groups which dealt heavily into proofs and philosophies about life and the non-need of god/gods to explain it was the ancient Greeks.

Modern atheism is generally not as intellecutal as the ancient Greek, though when you get someone who's into it, you will find a good grasp of theology and various arguments.

The Big Bang...technically falls into the Creationalism idea

Not really. But it's very complex.

Catholics have quite a body of religious literature that makes interesting reading. You might start with St. Thomas Aquinus, St. Francis, and some of the other noteables to understand how they viewed things intellectually. And then tackle the Greek philosophers and Nietzche and so forth.

Or at least read summaries of their ideas. It's fairly interesting and will give you a better grasp on everything. Too often people who are religious come in to argue things like this based on the assumptions they've been fed (like "non-religious people are miserable because they lack something emotional in their lives." This is not true, and when you try to argue religion from that aspect it falls flat.)

Athiesm simply exists because of two reasons, well, I've narrowed it down to them:


1.) People are lazy, which comes down to, they don't want to make a commetment like that, Wednsdays, Sundays, Sunday Nights....Saturday nights if Catholic.


2.) They think science can prove everything, Athiesm exists within Darwanism, being the fact that we came from Apes, which scientifically is impossible;


Considering the fact that in the so-called, "Pri-moridial soup" That was this gigantic ocean millions of years ago couldn't work, see; Amino-Acids and Carbon-Sudars, like the ones that make up DNA.


The Amino Acids would kill the Carbon-Sugars, thus making them unable to combine, eventually making the Key Component-The Carbon Sugars- Non existing, resulting in all of the materials to become Corrosive, so it couldn't happen, that and the fact that the Hydrogen molecules couldn't be there in the first place, nor could they have the nuclear reaction that would somehow create all of the land, and stars, etc.... There's more than the scientists tell us, see?


Scientists are kind of like the Media, except opposite factors.


The Media always portrays what is bad, because we are always interested in that, or at least a particular amount of people, because putting on good things wouldn't be interesting, plus it would, or could give good images for the President, or the Military actions in the Middle East.


Scientists only portray the good such as, the very, VERY small successes in their experiments, if they gave all of the bad information, basically no one would believe it.


Another thing is Phsycis, Quantum Fravity and whatnot, don't ask me how I know this, most of it I learned around, plus reading a lot of physics book, heh... As I was saying, Time=Power, Power=Light, Light=Time, so, no light, no time, it's Algebra, If A=B, and B=C, then A must surely Equal C, Three factors, Father, Son, Holy spirit, now onto Intelligent Design.


Intelligent design, has nothing to do with God, but does show the fact that there must've been a higher force creating the universe, galaxy, etc. The Earth's Atmospheric Oxygen level, as most people know, is somewhere around 22.3, any less, and we couldn't breath it, any more, and the simplest spark, or flame would annihalate the Earth, considering Oxygen IS flammable/explosive. ALSO The Earth is stationed perfectly, One planet closer, we'd fry, one planet farther, we'd freeze.

Now, I'm just giving you this information on two reasons, Atheism, technically those people believe lies, and Darwinist belive in all things scientific, so why shoot themselves in the foot with information that would instantly state Evolution a False?

Deny Ignorance, but Deny Intelligence, too. EXCEPT MINE!

im an atheist, i dont see the problem. just means im open minded to suggestions and other ideas. if your a religious person then that's it, god made the universe, god made the stars, god made earth, god made us etc. i guess christians and other religious people must be very trustworthy. to think that someone wrote something down about someone who was the son of god and 2000 years later you take their word for it. even longer in most other older religions. no way could i ever take someone's written/changed/edited word on something as serious as religion, and devoting my life to something that someone i never knew wrote down.
ive heard some people on here that aren't even worried that the bible gets torn to pieces by modern day thinking. they just say yeah gods real, that guy in robes standing up and talking in church promised me salvation if i devote my life to jesus and god. i dont care what you think, god's real... he came to me in a dream, i had a vision. i have a relationship with god through jesus...ive heard that one many times. i cant comprehend why anyone would need jesus or god in their lives, religion makes the world better? how about the christian crusades, 9/11 in aid of allah, war in iraq and afghanistan in aid of the christian god...yep religion rules the world, it also is the soul of hate, anger, destruction and death. and you say you cant understand why someone can be an atheist? well how about being yourself, being a person and not someone that just follows a crowd.

Originally posted by AeroQuake

Intelligent design, has nothing to do with God, but does show the fact that there must've been a higher force creating the universe, galaxy, etc. The Earth's Atmospheric Oxygen level, as most people know, is somewhere around 22.3, any less, and we couldn't breath it, any more, and the simplest spark, or flame would annihalate the Earth, considering Oxygen IS flammable/explosive. ALSO The Earth is stationed perfectly, One planet closer, we'd fry, one planet farther, we'd freeze.

Uh...yeah. I've always wondered how water fits so perfectly into a puddle....

Well god can be with out cause (always was and always will be) what I do as an atheist is simply give that power to the universe. The AWAWB (always was and always will be) ability dose not need consciousness to work or anything else.

Some of you might have herd of �some name� �s razor. It states the simplest solution it most likely the correct solution. So I think why do we need an extra cause in the change when the universe its self could become �god�.


[edit on 7-1-2005 by Elfwood]

radardog:

Based on our other discussion I am pleasently surprised to find that we think very much alike. Even though I am a theist I ascribe to a philosophy that relies completly on reason, research and logic. I do not pretend to have answers that no man can have and while I have concluded, based on the current evidence (or lack of it) that there must be a God, I am open to the possibility that there is no God. Just as you seem to be open to the possibility that there may be. However, I'm not sure that most atheists tend to be into scientism. I know many atheists and most of them are as illogical and anti-scientific as a four year old. Many of the self proclaimed atheists I know are really anarchists in disguise - not true atheists. I think it is more likely true that many people who are into scientism are likely to be atheists (rather than atheists are likely to be into science).

Either way, I do not understand how a logic person can deduce that it is impossible to lack a belief in God. Beliveing in the existance of a God is as likely and logical as not beleiving.

atheists, imo, don't beleive in organized religion more so than they don't beleive in a supreme being or power. they have a hard time with noahs ark, adam and eve, etc.

then you have the issue of all the religions claiming they are the right one, and scoffing at the others. It kinda makes 'em all look bad.

they are brought up in homes where religion is not practiced in the home or at church.

they have a scientific point of view, they explain the world around them with physics and astronomy, not the bible.

I'm not saying either is right, just trying to answer the original question.

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

Originally posted by AeroQuake

Intelligent design, has nothing to do with God, but does show the fact that there must've been a higher force creating the universe, galaxy, etc. The Earth's Atmospheric Oxygen level, as most people know, is somewhere around 22.3, any less, and we couldn't breath it, any more, and the simplest spark, or flame would annihalate the Earth, considering Oxygen IS flammable/explosive. ALSO The Earth is stationed perfectly, One planet closer, we'd fry, one planet farther, we'd freeze.

Uh...yeah. I've always wondered how water fits so perfectly into a puddle....

yes but if the oxygen level was lower maybe we would have evolutionised as a different species that didn't need such a high oxygen level.

I should probably mention that I am not advocating Christianity as right, I just believe in "God" and I think each independent religion may just be a different way to worship Him. Therefore, I feel every religion in general is right. It just seems that if there was nothing controlling it, there would be a lot more chaos out there than there really is.

2.) They think science can prove everything, Athiesm exists within Darwanism, being the fact that we came from Apes, which scientifically is impossible;

I wish this was the last time this needed to be said...but, evolution does not mean we came from apes.... It means that man and modern apes share a common ancestor...that's all. Evolution does NOT state we evolved from chimps, etc. At one point, there was a creature who shared traits with both. Similar to how at one point, men split off, and some developed lighter skin and hair, etc. but to a greater degree...

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

Originally posted by AeroQuake

Intelligent design, has nothing to do with God, but does show the fact that there must've been a higher force creating the universe, galaxy, etc. The Earth's Atmospheric Oxygen level, as most people know, is somewhere around 22.3, any less, and we couldn't breath it, any more, and the simplest spark, or flame would annihalate the Earth, considering Oxygen IS flammable/explosive. ALSO The Earth is stationed perfectly, One planet closer, we'd fry, one planet farther, we'd freeze.

Uh...yeah. I've always wondered how water fits so perfectly into a puddle....

yes but if the oxygen level was lower maybe we would have evolutionised as a different species that didn't need such a high oxygen level.

Possibly. Or we wouldnt exist. Where ever "we" popped up, we'd use the same stupid arguement. Theres no such thing as "we" or "i" really, but you get the point. In this vast universe, whenever a species evolve to the point when they ask "why?", im sure these arguements come up. Point is, if we werent asking it, someone else is or was, and obviously, nobody was on planets where life couldnt exist.

how could atheism exist? the question should be how can anything exist around he said she said or somone wrote a book and said yet cant back it up with solid proof?

the way I see it there is just as much reasion to disbelieve as there is to beleive.

if there is a god and he doesnt like it then he should show himself every gerneration and say hey I am here

its not a flaw to want to see proof before believeing someting contrary to what the fanatics say.

but for you who believe in the passage of the rich stand a chance in getting into heven like a camel passing thru the eye of the needle well if you have aquired to much wealth send me a U2U

now I bet I wont see 1 u2u even tho there are so called true chritains here that have more wealth then they really need so in the end even the beleivers have doubt as actions speak louder then words

Originally posted by Gazrok

2.) They think science can prove everything, Athiesm exists within Darwanism, being the fact that we came from Apes, which scientifically is impossible;

I wish this was the last time this needed to be said...but, evolution does not mean we came from apes....

It means that man and modern apes share a common ancestor...that's all. Evolution does NOT state we evolved from chimps, etc. At one point, there was a creature who shared traits with both. Similar to how at one point, men split off, and some developed lighter skin and hair, etc. but to a greater degree...

Yes, but I find it very compelling that recent research in molecular biology and genetics indicates that humans are more closely related to chimpanzees than cats are to lions. How about the concept of evolutionary creationism? Meaning maybe we are evolved from some other creature but that does not preclude the concept of a creator. Just maybe we were not one of the original creations. Maybe God just generated the big bang and evolution took it from there. I wish we knew definitively. It would save a lot of headache and bloodshed. But the fact is no one on this planet knows for sure. At least not yet.

Considering the fact that in the so-called, "Pri-moridial soup" That was this gigantic ocean millions of years ago couldn't work, see; Amino-Acids and Carbon-Sudars, like the ones that make up DNA.


The Amino Acids would kill the Carbon-Sugars, thus making them unable to combine, eventually making the Key Component-The Carbon Sugars- Non existing, resulting in all of the materials to become Corrosive, so it couldn't happen, that and the fact that the Hydrogen molecules couldn't be there in the first place, nor could they have the nuclear reaction that would somehow create all of the land, and stars, etc.... There's more than the scientists tell us, see?

Sorry? You contradict yourself there by saying Amino acids and carbon-sugars make up DNA, but then state that Amino acids would destroy them. Why would they?
Amino acids are not like Hydrochloric acid or something similar, they dont just disolve stuff because it says acid.
I think you may want to read up on bio-chemistry before you start to try and pull it apart!

Intelligent design, has nothing to do with God, but does show the fact that there must've been a higher force creating the universe, galaxy, etc. The Earth's Atmospheric Oxygen level, as most people know, is somewhere around 22.3, any less, and we couldn't breath it, any more, and the simplest spark, or flame would annihalate the Earth, considering Oxygen IS flammable/explosive. ALSO The Earth is stationed perfectly, One planet closer, we'd fry, one planet farther, we'd freeze.

Again, you show a lack of understanding here. As i'm sure you know, humans don't need anywhere near an oxygen level of 22%. If you measure the amount of oxygen in exhaled breath, you will find your body has only used about 6 of the 22% available. that is one of the reasons why CPR works! Humans could survive on a planet with only 10% oxygen.

Also, you seem to have the misconception that oxygen burns? It does nothing of the sort.

Oxygen allows other things to burn, I remember doing experiments in school with oxygen, and even in an oxygen rich atmosphere, the slightest spark doesn't cause a firestorm (makes things more interesting mind you!)

In fact, in an Oxygen rich atmosphere, you first concern would be that the oxygen would poison you, rather than make you burn alive.

Now, I'm just giving you this information on two reasons, Atheism, technically those people believe lies, and Darwinist belive in all things scientific, so why shoot themselves in the foot with information that would instantly state Evolution a False?

Deny Ignorance, but Deny Intelligence, too. EXCEPT MINE!

Really? You say we believe lies, but offer nothing to back yourself up? I think religions are more prone to making people believe lies, as in reality, all the major religions are just evolved/stolen/hijacked versions of older religions, all concocted to exercise control over the masses....

Deny your intelligence? Gladly! But I think you did it well enough yourself mate.

.
Because not everyone in the Universe feels the need for mystic psychobabble.

If you are lucky, you don't need the things religious beliefs provide,

Social group integration
Peace of mind (if you have your own already)
Empowerment of 'having a Purpose' (direction)

And you get,
Independence
your own choice of purpose/direction, including none
lightness of consequence (fun )
.

If you ask me... Religion is made for people who need a couple of answers. Well, not so much need, as want. And not so much answers, but to feel that they are guarded.

An infant cries when there is no-on around. When a parent coms close, and conforts him/her, they stop crying. Same with religion... you're in need of something to be there, and you cannot accet that maybe you are wrong, and everything happends because it happends.

Ok, lets defer the attention to schools. How can you expect Christian schools to on one lesson teach children that an apple falls upon your head due to Newton's theories, and the next, have them be taught that its all part of Gods great 'plan' for you?

I personally think that religion is way too illogical and far-fetched. I see religion as more easily being able to be proven wrong, than proven right, asin, proven where the ideas came from, and that they were not based on solid evidence, yet too many people have all this 'blind belief' as I call it, and wont consider alternatives.

Lets look now at it this way. (I�ve tried explaining this many times, and I wasn't very good, so bear with me).
If Science has Logically proven a whole lot about how the world works (gravity, masses attract etc.) Then why can�t it explain why we exist? This is my hypothesis on this question: It is known that the human brain can generate only 7-8% of its full capacity, the reason is unknown, but we'll get to that later. Anyways, the human brain therefore, cannot comprehend things like weightlessness (without experience), time travel, endlessness and so on. Then what stops our scientists from discovering why we exist? The same aspect! We merely cannot comprehend such events, (yet) and that's why we cannot prove anything from that nature. But I still believe that if someone later on actually does prove such a thing, it would be completely logical. I think that all these religions now days, are just people who want to know why? And simply take the easy way out in believing in some higher being that even they can�t explain.

Lets face it, although I�m not sure about other people, but a logical sentence (such as a+b=c) makes much more sense than 'because god made it so". In this case, we simply cant comprehend what the a and b equal to.

Two fish in an aquarium were fighting. For days, they were fighting, and both seperated to a side of the aquarium. They stayed on their own side for days, weeks even, One fish later souldn't take it anymore, and swam over to the other fishes' side, and said:
"Well if there is No god, who do you think changes the aquariums' water?"

There are numerous queries about religion, giving birth to aethists as myself...

I heard that the fact that we only use a little bit of our brain either isn't true in the first place or doesn't affect our ability to comprehend, think, or act.

I heard that the fact that we only use a little bit of our brain either isn't true in the first place or doesn't affect our ability to comprehend, think, or act.

Your right. we use all parts of our brain, but not at the same time. Bit like using bits for reading, but you wouldn't also use the a part of the brain needed for driving a car at the same time.

(crappy example I know, but converys the point)

Atheism probably stems from the Medieval times when "the church" taught that the Earth was the center of creation.

When this was debunked, people lost faith in the "church" and therefore went on their own paths to explain the nature of the universe.

Well, all I can say is that the prophecies that were written a couple of thousand years ago are increasingly coming to pass.

I really feel sorry for someone that doesn't believe in God and His Only Son.

The things that happened 2000 years ago are just preparations for the people now to meet Him when He returns.

And yes, He will return. When He does, what will the unbelievers have to say for themselves then? There won't be anything they can say!