Christian Scholar: The Bible is More Violent Than the Koran

a reply to: Teikiatsu

No, they're much more subdued when they shoot up doctors and clinics, shoot up churches or set off their bombs. Doesn't make their actions any less violent or terroristic though because they neglect to do the sign of the cross and yell out "The Body of Christ, Amen" right before the begin. Violence is a human trait, it isn't endemic to a particular religion. Craziness, indoctrination and stupidity don't care who you pray to.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Saying "Allahu Akbar" is proof of anything is no different than me saying "In God We Trust" on American money is proof of the same thing.

Yeah, I remember all those reports of extreme christo-fascists telling "In God We trust" before they started shooting up their cubicles in some kind of workplace violence.

Fundamental Christians, like Brian Brown types, just get others to do their dirty work for them.

As they preach their hate in Russia, Mumbai, etc.

They've admitted losing the fight in America, so they're venturing out.

The Bible and the Quran are the same book, at least in the Old Testament section. It's only the prophet that changes. Much of the message is the same in both books, as it is in all major religions.

a reply to: peter vlar

Perhaps though you were seeking a much simpler answer? In that regard, no I don't think that those people are acting in accordance with scripture. I don't think that the vast majority of Christians are any different though in their own fashion.

Did you think some how I would try'n deny that?

How could I ?

And as far I can tell i've already done what you asked in this
very thread will miracles never cease?

I genuinely say thank you

Wow! Apology accepted, I mean your welcome!
And thank you back.

Hell I'm two fer cool tonight.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: Konduit no but I remember the last time one walked into a clinic and murdered people. That was only a few weeks ago in good ole 'Murica

Show me a single article that confirms he was a hardcore Christian fundamentalist.

Never mind the hard line anti-government rhetoric and history of severe mental illness... because he was white and may have been identified as a Christian at some point, the crime was obviously committed in the name of religion.

By your logic, anyone who commits a crime and is a part of a certain secular group must have committed the crime in the name of said secular group. The prisons are just be filled with these fundies.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
But you do see self described American Christians calling for killing abortion providers, calling for killing LGBT people, calling for nuking the Middle East, calling for wars against numerous countries, etc. It's ridiculous that you keep overlooking this.

Covered some of this earlier, as you know. The numbers of people killed by religiously motivated wackos in American abortion clinics is miniscule compared to the numbers of Muslims killed by Muslims in religiously motivated sectarian violence. What do you think a Caliphate is? It's not some peaceful enclave for normal people.

A few people in the West may call for the killing of LGBT, but only in Muslim countries is this a crime punishable by death under Sharia. In fact, it's regularly carried out. Edit to add that in Western countries, LGBT people are broadly accepted and are equal.

originally posted by: Konduit

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: Konduit no but I remember the last time one walked into a clinic and murdered people. That was only a few weeks ago in good ole 'Murica

Show me a single article that confirms he was a hardcore Christian fundamentalist.

Never mind the hard line anti-government rhetoric and history of severe mental illness... because he was white and may have been identified as a Christian at some point, the crime was obviously committed in the name of religion.

which he? You're just assuming I'm referring to the Colorado incident. There are plenty examples of incidents of white Christians murdering people without citing the most recent case in Colorado.

The Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church Shooting in 2008 by Jim David Adkisson, a devout Christian and anti-abortion right-winger.

, walked into a Knoxville church on July 27th, 2008, and began firing a shotgun at children who were performing Annie Jr. He killed two and wounded seven, targeting “the church because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country.”

The Sikh Temple massacre in 2012

The 2009 assassination of George Tiller who's clinic was bombed in '86, survived an assassination attempt in '93(shot 5 times by Christian Right terrorist Shelly Shannon before finally being killed by Scott Roeder, a member of Christian Terrorist group 'Army of God'.

Dr. John Britton and his body guard were shot dead by another Army of God member in '94

Eric Rudolph, another Army of God associate perpetrated the bombing during the '96 Olympics, 2 abortion clinic bombings, an arson at a lesbian bar in Atlanta

The 1994 bombing of a Brookline Massachusetts Planned Parenthood by yet another Army of God member

And let's not forget Tim McVeigh with his Seventh Day Adventist ties and Christian White Supremacist background.

By your logic, anyone who commits a crime and is a part of a certain secular group must have committed the crime in the name of said secular group. The prisons are just be filled with these fundies.

Prisons ARE filled with those fundies though and more importantly, that is the EXACT rhetoric and logic being applied to all Muslims in every thread of this nature on ATS. People just don't like looking into the mirror of hypocrisy.

a reply to: randyvs

No, I didn't think you were going to jump into denial mode my friend, I expected a dialogue, which you in fact supplied. Kudos to you on the other thread btw... not sure how I missed that before so thank you for showing it to me.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Saying "Allahu Akbar" is proof of anything is no different than me saying "In God We Trust" on American money is proof of the same thing.

Yeah, I remember all those reports of extreme christo-fascists telling "In God We trust" before they started shooting up their cubicles in some kind of workplace violence.

So your criteria is that a person must use the religious phrase during the act of violence for it to count? Then that means the guns used in the US military w/Bible verses on them must count, right? After all, our troops were using these special Bible verse-inscribed weapons while killing people in Iraq & Afghanistan (and elsewhere).

U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes

Bible verses on U.S. soldiers' guns

Rifles used by U.S. troops include Bible verse inscriptions





Thanks for helping me prove my earlier point about the hypocrisy of Christian-majority Western wars.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
But you do see self described American Christians calling for killing abortion providers, calling for killing LGBT people, calling for nuking the Middle East, calling for wars against numerous countries, etc. It's ridiculous that you keep overlooking this.

Covered some of this earlier, as you know. The numbers of people killed by religiously motivated wackos in American abortion clinics is miniscule compared to the numbers of Muslims killed by Muslims in religiously motivated sectarian violence. What do you think a Caliphate is? It's not some peaceful enclave for normal people.

A few people in the West may call for the killing of LGBT, but only in Muslim countries is this a crime punishable by death under Sharia. In fact, it's regularly carried out. Edit to add that in Western countries, LGBT people are broadly accepted and are equal.

"Religiously motivated". LOL That's your euphemism of choice, huh? So like I said earlier, if a self described Christian commits any type of crime, you think they did it in spite of their religion. Since they weren't "religiously motivated" to beat their wives, rape people, embezzle from people, kill people, commit suicide, prostitute themselves or purchase a prostitute's services, or do any of the other crimes that are committed in America every day. LOL

And now you're claiming LGBT people are broadly accepted in the West? In many areas they are. But in America, that social acceptance of them is in spite of the mainstream Christian view of them, not because of it. It's progressives like me who've been pushing for equal rights for decades while the mainstream American Christians have opposed equal rights for LGBT people. Or have you seriously already forgotten the fearmongering against gay marriage? LOL So no, you don't get to claim the acceptance of LGBT people in America as proof of Western Christian tolerance. It's become socially acceptable in spite of their intolerance.

Then again, you've shown in this thread that you refuse to accept that Muslims are diverse people just like everyone else. So I doubt it's even registered with you that a Muslim (like me) can be a progressive, much less be a progressive that doesn't give a crap about what people do in their bedrooms or love life (as long as it's with consenting adults).

originally posted by: babybunnies
The Bible and the Quran are the same book, at least in the Old Testament section. It's only the prophet that changes. Much of the message is the same in both books, as it is in all major religions.

Uh, no they're not. There are 114 Surahs ("Revelations") in the Qur'an, and they range from a few passages long up to 200+ passages long. The Qur'an mentions many of the stories that are mentioned in the Old Testament (which is based on the TaNaKh), but that's because we are following the same religion as God's Prophets from the past. There are also things in the Qur'an which have nothing to do with the OT. The books are in no way the same or even similar structurally.

Here's a clickable Index for the Qur'an so you can see what I mean.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

We are going round in circles with this one. Lets' agree to differ. The vast majority of Muslims are just people wanting to get along in life, but hundreds of thousands of Muslims have died due to sectarian and religiously motivated brutality and violence over the last few decades. Of this there is not denying. The level of violence and intolerance does not compare to what goes on in the States.

I leave with a quote from that fine example of religious intolerance, the late, great Grand Ayatollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Fatwa against Salman Rushdie (14 February 1989)

"... the author of The Satanic Verses book which is against Islam, the Prophet and the Qu'ran, and all involved in its publication who were aware of its content, are sentenced to death. I call on all zealous Muslims to execute them wherever they find them, so that no one will dare to insult the Islamic sanctions. Whoever is killed on this path will be regarded as a martyr, God willing".

Here's a quote from that charming man Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, a leader of ISIS, a religious Islamic group with quite a lot of Muslim blood on his hands...

"... Do not think the war that we are waging is the Islamic State’s war alone. Rather, it is the Muslims’ war altogether. It is the war of every Muslim in every place, and the Islamic State is merely the spearhead in this war. It is but the war of the people of faith against the people of disbelief".

a reply to: enlightenedservant

So the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was a holy war Christians and Muslims?

a reply to: paraphi

You're quoting freaking ISIS's leader as proof of your objective conclusions? Yeah, let's agree to disagree...

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: enlightenedservant

So the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was a holy war Christians and Muslims?

Did you even follow the chain of posts about that? I'm simply pointing out the double standards.

I've already said the wars are about trade deals, geopolitics, ethnic tensions, territorial disputes, etc. But someone pointed out that the self described Muslims use Islamic phrases during their acts, which makes their actions "religiously motivated". So I brought up the examples of "In God We Trust" & the Biblical verses inscribed on American weapons to point out the double standard.

But since you asked, President Bush did call the "War on Terrorism" a crusade in this interview (15 second mark):

Christian West has been raging proxy war on muslim world for sometime now .

Red Menace [ Communists ] were replaced by Green Menace [ Islam ] but overall the balance of power barely maintained nevertheless .

Some people like to believe that the peace between the christianity & Islam can not be .

here is a picture to prove that opposite is true ;




When Christians ruled Constantinapolis , the Muslims weren't allowed to worship in the City of Konstantin .

When Africa & Americans were colonised ; Christianity was silent .

Earlier , within Europe any non Christian Europeans [ Pagans , Druids ] were killed off by Christians .

Bible is more violent because it's been changed , I thought everyone knew this fact .

Bible today is corrupt because man's own words masquadering as God's words.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: Konduit no but I remember the last time one walked into a clinic and murdered people. That was only a few weeks ago in good ole 'Murica

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: Konduit

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: Konduit no but I remember the last time one walked into a clinic and murdered people. That was only a few weeks ago in good ole 'Murica

Show me a single article that confirms he was a hardcore Christian fundamentalist.

Never mind the hard line anti-government rhetoric and history of severe mental illness... because he was white and may have been identified as a Christian at some point, the crime was obviously committed in the name of religion.

which he? You're just assuming I'm referring to the Colorado incident. There are plenty examples of incidents of white Christians murdering people without citing the most recent case in Colorado.

So who exactly were you referring to then? There was only 1 shooting at a clinic that occurred a few weeks ago in good ole 'Murica.

originally posted by: 23432

Christian West has been raging proxy war on muslim world for sometime now .

Red Menace [ Communists ] were replaced by Green Menace [ Islam ] but overall the balance of power barely maintained nevertheless .

Some people like to believe that the peace between the christianity & Islam can not be .

here is a picture to prove that opposite is true ;

When Christians ruled Constantinapolis , the Muslims weren't allowed to worship in the City of Konstantin .

When Africa & Americans were colonised ; Christianity was silent .

Earlier , within Europe any non Christian Europeans [ Pagans , Druids ] were killed off by Christians .

Bible is more violent because it's been changed , I thought everyone knew this fact .

Bible today is corrupt because man's own words masquadering as God's words.

I may disagree with you on many point's such as the banning of other religions from Constantinople being an act of Christian's or the murder's and colonisation's being perpetrated or condoned by Christian's as they were patently not Christian act's in any sense of the word but I do agree the bible has been altered and even today pastors such as one young man a US pastor whom I watched on TBN UK often twist the bible or take passages out of context and mangle it to fit there own agenda and they often do so subtly claiming it is the word of God when in fact it is there own interpretation and even corruption of the word of God.

Though not as bad as some of the corruption's of the past this guy whom was preaching his own right wing political agenda on the HOUR OF POWER show quoted from a parable Jesus gave about a man whom hired servant's to do him some work, he hired them in the morning and in the noon and in the afternoon but all were paid the same, now this man was using it to try to demolish the concept of Christian Socialism and I could not believe how far he had gone from being a preacher to a wolf in sheep's clothing as he abused the biblical passage.

Indeed socialism as a concept can trace it root's back to the old testament Jew's and also the ancient pre Babylonian civilization which had grain as the root of it's economy, while they had a king the people were paid in grain and there was even a public education system and the first known organised professional army all paid for in grain not gold.

The early Christian church's were what today we would call open commune's as they had all there wealth pooled and the needy brethren and the sick, the unemployed and the homeless were taken care of by the church (until Constantine took it over and made it a state religion moving the formerly pagen priesthood over to take over the running of the church as a tool of state to tie his empire together), the early church were genuinely one in the body of Christ and so realize the story about the man and woman (husband and wife) whom had sold there possession to give to the church but had kept aside a sizable portion for themselves and lied before the elders, Apostle, they simply dropped dead as the body of Christ was not going to accept two faced lyers into itself whom would have in time become like a cancer in the church much like this man's attitude about socialism and his right wing view point.

Jesus is the guy whom said it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle and if you have two coats and your brother has none then give him the one you are not using.
He was also essentially homeless "The Son of man has no place to lay his head" and he was actually defrauded out of his inheritance "Came into his own and it knew him not".

He also said to the rich man for whom he spoke the parable of the eye of the needle that all thing's are possible for god as that man was a rarity, a rich man whom was righteous though he had walked away after asking Christ what more he should do to be saved and Christ had replied "Sell all you own, give it to the poor and come follow me", he had walked away because he was so rich and could not bare to let go of the thing's of this world.

Yet like your point I whom see myself as a less than perfect Christian do see pastors and preachers whom mangle the bible to there own corrupt view point's and let's be fair all major religions have suffered from this type of corruption and far worse such as Nun's in Ireland starving the children in there care to death and priest's and imam's sexually abusing the children they are supposed to be caring about.

Jesus whom had little time for priests especially the self righteous one's called them wolves in sheep's clothing.

One of the worst atrocity's of the misguided was the eradication of the Christian sect known as the Cathars, they actually named a man a saint whom ordered every man woman and child wiped out in the last bastion were the last Cathars waited to be martyred, that same man said "kill them all and let god sort out his own" but I must point out that he was man for whom there are no myracles so is probably rotting in hell (Sheol) rather than sitting in heaven and his actions as those of the misguided of that age were not in line with the word's or spirit of Christ.

The first crusade was justified by tale's of Christians being butchers and murdered by the Celjik turk's which was actually definitely really happening, unlike Christianity which was born preaching peace, acceptance, tolerance and passivism (though very few have lived up to this myself included) Islam was born at war out of blood shed, rape, enslavement and murder but here is the point that we have to not overlook, all religion's and there interpretations aside people are people and all the atrocity's stem not to there religion in most cases but rather to the failing's of human nature and our natural propensity to be at strife with our neighbours.

Yet we still find way's to blame god when he is obviously not at fault but we are.

Though I come across as critical of Constantine and his legacy I actually do hold him to be a saint but not on the level of such as Saint Jerome or St Theresa etc, of course I am a Christian though not a perfect one.

The oldest church still extant though at the current rate of loss in Syria is the Syriac Orthodox Church half of which following a schism merged with the catholic church, the Syriac Orthodoxy still hold mass in Aremaic the language Jesus would likely have spoken in day to day life, one important fact about the Syriac orthodox as well as the Ethiopian orthodoxy is that they were never part of the conclave of Nicea so were not bound by the Byzantine empire with Syria being an independent Christian kingdom until the subsequent Islamic invasion's and martyrdom's during which time a great many Christian saint's were made by those among the Islamic invaders whom sought to force them to become Islamic just as today under the Islamic State terrorist's.

Remember also this, Christianity has seldom been truly adhered too and many refused to be part of the state church founded Constantine and so became persecuted minority sect's such as the Cathars all of which were eventually oppressed into extinction (at least down here on earth) by non Christian rulers whom used the Christian church and it's then utterly corrupt PRINCES of the church whom sadly still exist in Rome to this day to help them enforce there domein and vice versa.

oh dear - it seems a re-write is needed

argueing that the bible is worse than the koran [ or koran is worse than bible ] is assanine

both are abhorent

thats the bottom line

a reply to: gladtobehere

Considering that the Qu'ran is the Old Testament, in greater detail, how is this so? The ancient Hebrews went around conquering and war mongering. The Christians did the same thing for hundreds of years (and let us not even mention the Crusades) and now Islam is doing the same thing, and people have a problem with it? This is my concern about religion. It always points the finger at others, yet somehow clearly refuses to see the faults of its own.