Capitalism is not the only American way.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: glend

I agree with some of what you are saying - I just believe the first step towards any type of happy/good life is getting rid of the 100% chance of corruption economics.

And how do you propose getting 100% of the corruption out of a socialist system? Do you not realize that it is people that corrupt any "system" put into place? It's the people running the system, not the system that is corrupt.
So to take that step toward a good life, be a good, not-corrupted person and teach your children to avoid corruption. Don't vote for people you know to be corrupt (even if they are members of your party) and encourage honest people to run for office. Begin at the local level. It's not easy.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: glend

I agree with some of what you are saying - I just believe the first step towards any type of happy/good life is getting rid of the 100% chance of corruption economics.

The first step to realizing that there is no such thing is to understand that the black market exists everywhere. It is the free market where there is no such thing technically allowed.

When the state does not allow people to innovate and have a thing for themselves, it is always sold illegally. Even in countries that purport to have free markets, illegal goods are still sold on the black market.

originally posted by: ketsuko
When the state does not allow people to innovate and have a thing for themselves

Who proposed that?

a reply to: deadlyhope

Most of the men in DC are out-dated, and not needed in this day and age.

I agree, career politicians suck.Term limits of two and four years were established because thats how long it takes for them to learn how to cheat at their jobs. Big Business and Public Office shouldn't mix. Founding Fathers understood that.

Today its called the revolving door in politics.

a reply to: daskakik

In a centrally planned command economy where all things are done for the common good, there are always things that fall outside the bounds.

The bureaucratic apparatus is inefficient at best in innovation, so the best innovations often begin in the private market. But what happens when the private market is illegal?

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: deadlyhope

That we could certainly emulate, even do better than other countries when considering adopting aspects of socialism.

We already do, most people are just in denial about it. Modern cities are the biggest social engineering projects on a mega scale.

Most people who decry socialism, can't live without programs like public works, public schools, Public transit, mail delivery, police, fire…

So cry freedom and don't call the fire department the next time your house catches fire. When your car breaks down from hitting all the potholes the road workers didn't fix, you'll have to walk to work instead of taking the bus. Your kids will stay home because you can't afford privatized schools. And the cops? Forget about 911, theres no policing available.

Oh, and forget about applying for unemployment or welfare, those offices are closed.

Schools, public works, police and fire services are NOT a product of socialism.

The first organized fire brigade was under Augustus in Rome, ~2000 years before Engels or Marx were even born.

Did you miss the train. Rome was national socialist, too. So were the Nazis. So is the US. Rome had cities, too. And a senate, stadiums, capitol domes, fluted pillars and yes, social welfare.

"Communism" is the term applied to the "evil" Soviet style of government. They called themselves the USSR, United Soviet Socialist Republics. They weren't republic-ans.

News flash, neither is the US today.

Mega condensed population centers called cities are global. The international banks and corporations run things now. Its all socialist , but like I said earlier some people are propagandized to see differences where there are none.

originally posted by: ketsuko
In a centrally planned command economy where all things are done for the common good, there are always things that fall outside the bounds.

Who proposed that?

a reply to: diggindirt

Don't vote for people you know to be corrupt (even if they are members of your party) and encourage honest people to run for office. Begin at the local level. It's not easy.

Honest people are blacklisted by media owned by the oligarchy so its even harder to break the corruption than ever before. But if media was free to tell the truth and the senate was banned from accepting donations from interest groups, you'd have a far better chance of getting honest people into office. So without a revolution it will need a group of people tasked with unrolling the power the oligarchy has over society (media, Fed Bank etc). An illuminati if you will. But the oligarchy will try corrupt any group that threatens its control.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
Capitalism is not the only American way.

It is if you 'need' to be part of, and accepted by, and live in the mainstream!
'Vice'; greed and selfishness and Faithlessness and dishonesty and corruption... are still the predominant 'Xtian values' of the average Amerikkkan!
But, little by little, we evolve...

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: ketsuko
In a centrally planned command economy where all things are done for the common good, there are always things that fall outside the bounds.

Who proposed that?

It is the only practical way to make sure you take a large scale system on the order of an entire nation and remove all personal ownership for communal ownership of the means of production.

It becomes a centrally planned economy where all the bits and pieces must be seen to and mapped out in order to try to keep it all "fair" and distributed.

originally posted by: ketsuko
It is the only practical way to make sure you take a large scale system on the order of an entire nation and remove all personal ownership for communal ownership of the means of production.

Nobody proposed that so, that is not needed.

It becomes a centrally planned economy where all the bits and pieces must be seen to and mapped out in order to try to keep it all "fair" and distributed.

Yeah, I get that that is what it means to you but that isn't the only thing it can mean.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: diggindirt

Don't vote for people you know to be corrupt (even if they are members of your party) and encourage honest people to run for office. Begin at the local level. It's not easy.

Honest people are blacklisted by media owned by the oligarchy so its even harder to break the corruption than ever before. But if media was free to tell the truth and the senate was banned from accepting donations from interest groups, you'd have a far better chance of getting honest people into office. So without a revolution it will need a group of people tasked with unrolling the power the oligarchy has over society (media, Fed Bank etc). An illuminati if you will. But the oligarchy will try corrupt any group that threatens its control.

As I indicated, you must begin on the local level. If the media won't expose the corruption, you must band together with others of like mind to do it. If you wait for the media or depend on them in any way, you embark on a fool's errand. On the local level you can make a difference because the people running for office are there on a day-to-day basis, having to face the people they serve. It's not an easy task but if there are people who sincerely want honest government and are willing to work toward that goal, it can happen. You can elect honest leadership. Then, you must be vigilant in watching them, keeping them honest.
This is work that by and large, citizens don't wish to do. Believe me, I've been there, done that, and suffered the slings and arrows of the dishonest (and yes, even the media) and it takes a pretty tough skin to withstand it. But it is work that I believe is worth doing because the majority of the politicians at the state and federal level come from the local ranks.
If there was one thing Jimmy Carter's presidency taught me it was that electing an honest, upright man to the White House is an exercise in futility without having the done the work of clearing out the corrupt ones from the legislatures.
If your leadership is corrupt, any system installed will also be corrupt. Do you not think that the oligarchy will corrupt socialism if that is the system chosen?
We've all heard for years now that socialism will benefit us all if only it were implemented correctly. Well, duh, so will capitalism, if implemented and handled by honest, ethical people. It isn't the system---it is the people running it. If the majority of the people don't care if their representatives are corrupt, if they don't bother to investigate them beyond the party symbol perched beside their name on the ballot---we end up with the mess which faces us today.

Capitalism has been the most successful economic system ever created. Capitalism has allowed more people to rise out of poverty than any other system.

The only failure of capitalism is that man is not infallible. Corrupt politicians allow manipulation of the system. However, corrupt politicians are inherent in any system. Even supposedly socialist / communist regimes always have a rich elite who live on the backs of the masses.

a reply to: Edumakated

Where's the proof that Americas economy is better than switzerland?

a reply to: M5xaz

and those fire brigades charged for their services. If you didn't have the right plaque hanging on your tenement when the fire brigade came by you were flat out of luck and had to the hope the one you DID pay came by before the building was gone.


to all the rest of you:

please read some Marx. You might learn that socialism isn't what the capitalists taught you to think it is.

Despite its faults, the people of the US are some of the most charitable people on the planet, while the Nordic countries are not even close. With charity and responsibility in the hands of bureaucrats, central planners, and government, one is not only liberated from having to take care of oneself, one is also liberated from having to take care of others.

Capitalism does not impede any workers right to acquire shelter, food and health. In fact, it endorses that right and defends it. Anyone can develop the skills, a lifestyle, and secure a future on his own accord.

The worker class in America are some of the richest people in the world.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: daskakik

The bureaucratic apparatus is inefficient at best in innovation, so the best innovations often begin in the private market. But what happens when the private market is illegal?

That's a big assumption. I can think off the top of my head of two major innovations that we're using to communicate right now that originated in governmental programs rather than the private market.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Despite its faults, the people of the US are some of the most charitable people on the planet, while the Nordic countries are not even close.

Capitalism does not impede any workers right to acquire shelter, food and health. In fact, it endorses that right and defends it. Anyone can develop the skills, a lifestyle, and secure a future on his own accord.

First of all, the US does have the greatest volume of money going to non-profit organizations, but those organizations are in quite a few cases not what most think of when they think charities (orchestras, art galleries, Mastercard corporation), and on top of that the US provides substantial tax breaks to people who donate to charity and are also able to provide itemized tax returns. The Scandinavians don't have nearly as substantial tax breaks available for charity.

Capitalism does impede your right to acquire food and shelter and especially health. But over and above those things, it impedes your ability to secure liberty. Capitalism requires that you submit yourself to those little tyrants of the marketplace we call "owners" and furnish them with most of the fruits of your labor, in exchange for the right to do said labor.

Capitalism was and is still the foundation of the American Spirit, and anything else is UN-American
Philanthropy remains The Capitalistic Spirit and that's all that is needed

a reply to: diggindirt

If there was one thing Jimmy Carter's presidency taught me it was that electing an honest, upright man to the White House is an exercise in futility without having the done the work of clearing out the corrupt ones from the legislatures.
If your leadership is corrupt, any system installed will also be corrupt. Do you not think that the oligarchy will corrupt socialism if that is the system chosen?

I totally agree. Unfortunately corruption breeds corruption so it will take an enormous effort to clean a system that has stagnated to its present state.

If the majority of the people don't care if their representatives are corrupt

Unfortunately the majority are spellbound by an education system that doesn't teach people how to think and a media which constantly tells people what to think. So oligarchy believes they now home in hose and can do anything they want.

originally posted by: SPECULUM
Philanthropy remains The Capitalistic Spirit and that's all that is needed

I have always seen philanthropy as a gesture of "I got so over on everyone that I can toss them crumbs because that is all they need". I have never equated that to the american spirit.

Maybe I am wrong.