Did you know about the 'Kardashev Scale' - Type I, II, III, IV & V ALIEN Civilizations?

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: OrionHunterX

While, yes, I've heard of it, and it is a great theory with many philosophical concepts..

We have nothing factual to base these assertions upon. I love musing about this stuff. But so far it's all conjecture.

Even God's existence is conjecture!

I have thought about this concept and I can't see humans ever leaving our Solar System. The problem is Humankind is at a fork in the road of technology. We have the expanding outer space and the computer generated inner space. Inner space is cheaper and advancing quicker than the chance of us living off planet. This is the problem, once we can insert a conscious into inner space and that inner space can't be distinguished between our reality and created reality, people will lose interest in advancing. We would be gods in the worlds we create. If we have developed AI / Robots to look after us while in our worlds living out every fantasy / subconscious wish why would we want to leave? These devices would be powered by the sun or another power source, but it wouldn't be ridiculous amounts. We would eventually die out as a species and the robots would rust to nothing unless they because self aware. Anyone who say's they wouldn't want to live in their own perfect world has watched too much matrix, plus it is alright saying you would progress science, but it would be hard for top scientist to do anything if all the lab monkeys were not there. If you could travel around the universe I think you would come across similar species that have fallen in this trap.

a reply to: OrionHunterX

Not to be picky OP, but your first images in not what a "Rama" type spacecraft would look like, mainly because the image is of something called the Citadel from the Mass Effect games. It's not a closed cylinder normally (all though it can close), and uses something called Mass Effect Field Generators to keep the air in:



That is tech that is WAY beyond us.

Here is a Rama pic:



And actually, the tech idea behind it is not really too advanced for us: travel to a elongated asteroid, hollow it out, spin it for gravity, fill it with air, water and soil. That's actually do-able by us now.

My 2 cents are that getting there isn't that it's a matter of scientific evolution anymore, but rather culutural and social evolution. We already have to the technology to do things which most people would concider science-fiction, yet full-scale implementation of state-of-the-art technology takes decennia solely due to the capitalistic nature of society.

Altough we've gotten pretty good at the distribution of gadgets and other small consumer items (Most small electronic devices), anything that is monetary out of reach of the average Individual either doesn't take off in the capitalist wheel of consumerism or requires state/company funded projects which usually don't end up going too fast. (Example: Solar panels in Belgium/Europe)

Who is going to build this world of tomorrow? I have no doubt we can realistically build ourselves up to a type I civilization within 50 years. We have all the scientific tools and resources available, yet social and cultural standards around the world (Read: West) need to change before any of this can happen.


Tl;Dr:

The flawed distribution of physical and informational wealth will halt any scientific progress, it has been doing so for the past 50 years atleast. Changing the way our society works should be the first step if we ever want to move up the Kardashev Scale.

Wouldn't we already be a type 1? We apparently can control the weather, and we store "some" of the sun's energy via solar panels. Those are the requirements right?


Pcg

a reply to: pcgamer11

Not necessarily. We don't exclusively get our energy from a renewable source such as the sun. We primarily use things such as Fossil Fuels for that. We also can't control the weather at the level that a Type I could (total prevention and creation of weather events).

So we're nearly there, but, still lagging behind a bit

What a useless scale, what if a civilization becomes interstellar before utilizing 100% of its planets energies?

What is even the likelihood of being able to control volcano's and the weather before interstellar travel?

It seems that you could only get a place on that scale if you follow his idea of how a civilization should evolve. It does not take into account any variables.

a reply to: leolady

I do not know if a redefinition of the scales involved, would necessitate a change in our rating to reflect our progress. I really think that we have yet to even scratch the surface of what is possible. Perhaps later, when things like Elon Musks vision for a solar future, grid free energy production and distribution, travel to and colonisation of other worlds, and the development of interstellar propulsion methods requiring no cryogenic sleeping arrangements for passengers and crew, are all common place, then we may consider ourselves to have moved forward.

While things like poverty, famine, plagues and other avoidable poxes upon the rump of our species are still problematic, while we still spend more on war than we do on peace, more on guns than we do on pharmaceuticals, all at the expense of much more important things... I believe we will stagnate until we abandon these things.

i agree. The Kardeshev scale was a mnemonic, a sort of guide for thinking about things. but it isn't realistic. we will be interplanetary and perhaps even interstellar way before we reach the K1 level on that scale. it does not require stellar level energy to go to the planets in our solar system (chemical and ion propulsion will do nicely thank you) and some interstellar trips can be made well before reaching that level also. Interstellar trips can be made with reasonable power sources especially given that the trip does not necessarily have to be fast. anything from mag sails to ions to fission to fusion and other things besides can get us to the nearby stars. In fact the only thing keeping us from doing so right now is the fact we do not know if there is any compelling reason to do so. as astronomy State Of The Art gets better we will soon have our rationale for doing it (or not) And if it is worth doing the timescale won't matter so much; even if it takes 100s of years.

Thanks for info

Most of what struck me about this scale is the type IV - V Civilizations, they are basically saying time travel/manipulation is possible. Now it just makes me think if anything exists out there capable of doing that. Fascinating and a bit scary at the same time in my opinion.

I think we need another scale or increments added to this scale.

I mean when you're talking about a Type 1 Civilization and below, there are so many levels. From Primitive tribes, to small stone age villages. And in our Human perspective those differences are huge. This scale is almost too huge to comprehend. We need a new scale that has all the increments. Thoughts on that?

a reply to: amazing

Carl Sagan already worked on this by interpolating between the rough estimates of power (W) for each K-level of civilizations. We're currently around a K-0.725 civilization.

originally posted by: iterationzero
a reply to: amazing

Carl Sagan already worked on this by interpolating between the rough estimates of power (W) for each K-level of civilizations. We're currently around a K-0.725 civilization.

Interesting. I'll research that. Thanks!

IMHO, taking the Kardashev Scale literally, just like taking the Drake Equation literally, is much like taking the Bible literally. Aside from the entertainment value, very little is to be gained.

I think the Kardashev Scale and Drake Equation were meant to be very general templates, or probabilistic guides, for thinking of events we only conceptualize and have yet to observe. In other words, ballpark guesstimates. Also, these guesstimating tools are based at the core on the scientific thinking/mentality of the time; a mentality which evolves and changes over time as our core knowledgebase grows.

It’s funny to look back at some of the predictions made by well-informed futurists of the past. Some of their predictions worked out pretty good, some were not so good, but most were just flat wrong. Using current trends as a basis for making “logical” long-term projections often doesn’t workout so well. Over time too many previously unknown factors and game-changing events take place, and we end up screaming off in some direction we never imagined to begin with.


I take it Kardashev assumed Type III interstellar travelers will have overcome the limitations of the speed of light. Maybe worm-holes, warp drives, travelling along the edge of spacetime itself, rather than through it, etc.? I was wondering, though, as these Type III dudes are zipping around the Milky Way, how will they communicate? EM radiation won’t get it anymore. I guess we just assume that, too, will be solved.

Another thing I wonder about is, if there are indeed Type III and above civilizations out there, either they’re awfully good at hiding it, or we’re awfully bad at detecting it.

One last thought (I promise!) is, we need to be very careful in the future about tampering with Mother Nature. While the idea of building Dyson Spheres and terraforming planets may sound cool, Nature maintains a very delicate balancing act which I’m not sure we fully understand.

Have fun!!

originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: OrionHunterX

Not to be picky OP, but your first images in not what a "Rama" type spacecraft would look like, mainly because the image is of something called the Citadel from the Mass Effect games. It's not a closed cylinder normally (all though it can close), and uses something called Mass Effect Field Generators to keep the air in:

That is tech that is WAY beyond us.

Here is a Rama pic:

And actually, the tech idea behind it is not really too advanced for us: travel to a elongated asteroid, hollow it out, spin it for gravity, fill it with air, water and soil. That's actually do-able by us now.

Agreed! That one resembled the Rama spaceship. But what Rama actually looks like is this. Breathtaking!

a reply to: OrionHunterX

Oh you might like this then. Film students made this teaser:



Would love to see Clarke's Rama put to the big screen for real.

a reply to: eriktheawful
Amazing! But, any idea when the movie 'Rendezvous With Rama' will ever see the light of day? I've been waiting for its release for years!

a reply to: djz3ro

Here's a more recent article about 'megastructure' found near KIC 8462852.

Link

Edit: It's not recent, sorry about that.It showed 23 December when I found it, now I see it's 16 Oct.
Still an interesting read though.

this is cosmology 101 I mean come on if somebody here doesn't know what it is then they shouldn't even be commenting on anything


a reply to: OrionHunterX