Skeptics, why doubt ufo's?

originally posted by: MrCrow
In my personal opinion, we have not been visited by "aliens". This "N=R*.Fp.Ne.Fe.Fi.Fc.L" (or Drake's equation translated into text for posting purposes) is the premise they exist and I cannot disagree there but my issue with them coming here is distance.

Not so much an "equation" as a compounding of assumptions.

My issue is with treating it as mathematical law.

originally posted by: MrCrow
In my personal opinion, we have not been visited by "aliens". This "N=R*.Fp.Ne.Fe.Fi.Fc.L" (or Drake's equation translated into text for posting purposes) is the premise they exist and I cannot disagree there but my issue with them coming here is distance.

It may not necessarily be the distance in terms of us being so far away that they can't get here, but rather the SIZE of the galaxy being large and density of intelligent life at any given time being so low that they just haven't some across us.

There may have been many intelligent technological civilizations in our galaxy alone, but those civilizations may not only be separated by space, but by time, too. What I mean is that a technological civilization probably has a finite lifespan as a technological civilization -- let's say 2 million years of having spacefaring capability (just making a number up, because I have no idea). The galaxy is so old that there could have been hundreds of these space faring civilizations existing since recent Earth history -- and recent being the beginning of the dinosaurs 250 million years ago (which was in fact recent in the long 4.5 billion year history of the earth). But even if over 100 spacefaring civilizations existed one after the other during that time, only one (on average) would exist during any given moment.

So maybe spacefaring civilizations may be common over time, but only one or two may exist at any given time. And if that were the case, Earth may be just an anonymous little speck in the vastness of the galaxy.

Like I said, I made up the "2 million year" lifespan of a spacefaring civilization, but what is the right number? 5 Million? 10 Million? I truly doubt our civilization will be around in 5 million years. I don't know what will destroy us, but in my mind, there may have been a whole bunch of civilizations in our galaxy that existed during different parts of the short time since the dinosaurs rose up, but most of those civilizations are probably gone.

So it may not be that we are separated from other civilizations by too much distance of space, but rather separated by time of existence.

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: MrCrow
In my personal opinion, we have not been visited by "aliens". This "N=R*.Fp.Ne.Fe.Fi.Fc.L" (or Drake's equation translated into text for posting purposes) is the premise they exist and I cannot disagree there but my issue with them coming here is distance.

Not so much an "equation" as a compounding of assumptions.

My issue is with treating it as mathematical law.

I don't think Drakes equation holds any weight being based on a known sample base of one planet with sentient life. I've never really understood why people hold that equation up as valid but tend to ignore the Fermi equation.

I truly believe that life of some sort may exist on at least one of the moons of Saturn or Jupiter - extremely primitive and already at the end of its evolutionary path which is dictated by its environment, but even so it would be amazing. Would it be any kind of validation for the 'aliens are here' crowd? Some would think so, I can't see why it would though.

So just because we humans haven't discovered a way to space travel vast distances in space in a short period of time that means no other civilization in the Universe has? Give me a break and think beyond your noses. That's like in the past were they thought that the earth was flat and they were convinced of it, until all of them were proven wrong. Also, they probably have been living on planet earth before us and our origin is likely due to them. Planet earth is composed of 70% water and only 30% earth. Some of them (UFOs) can easily live under the waters or on unoccupied places on earth. Others may perhaps come from another planet. They are most likely extraterrestrial in origin since they have been reported early in time when humans still had no technology at all. The arguement of "They can't travel light years or they couldn't have found us" is quite illogical since you are talking from the perspective of our very limited understanding of the Universe and technology. In the past were they had to travel on boats they wouldn't have thought or imagined that there would be a faster way of traveling long distances like airplanes do so now. Now its the same. Just because humans haven't found a way to travel through space without taking light years to get elsewhere, dosen't mean there's no way around it. Otherwise you are ignorant just like many were in the past, claiming that something was impossible when later it was proven the opposite as what they all thought. Once again, think beyond your noses, think beyond your limited minds.

originally posted by: MDT20
think beyond your limited minds.

How are we supposed to manage this?

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

its a sad thought that we MIGHT be all alone. i doubt that we are but not ONE person here has 100% proof that we are not. i have to admit i always forget about the time factor, distances can be crossed with neat tricks but i don't know about time, I'm sure if you hung around a black hole long enough(and could get away) you would 'time travel' to the future but it would be truly amazing if you could step BACK in time.

if we manage to not kill our self's in one way or the other, if we send out astronauts today at the close to the speed of light and send them on a mission by the time they get back to earth, humans as they know them wont exist any more. maybe we already have people on missions like this, and these are UFO's that we see, the travelers looking to get back 'home' but only to find they don't fit in this time anymore.

time travel would be the best method of space travel, if you could step out side of space and time with your craft. move backwards one billion years and step back in, you would be in a totally different place. don't forget we are constantly moving threw the universe so if you could step out side that movement you would travel VERY quickly.

a reply to: deadlyhope

How are Humans primitive? We have harnessed the power of nuclear energy, that's pretty incredible. And within most of our life times and much sooner we will be harnessing the power of the sun (Fusion). That seems far from primitive to me -

Don't judge the whole human race because some people are still stuck in the stone age -

originally posted by: penroc3
its a sad thought that we MIGHT be all alone.

I don't feel very alone on a planet with 7 billion people and billions of other kinds of life. I suppose that it would be interesting to encounter life from another planet, but considering that I only interact with a tiny fraction of the life here on Earth, chances are pretty good that I wouldn't be missing much if it turns out there is another planet out there with just as much life or more.

I suppose if they're intelligent in a roughly similar way we are intelligent -- and not insects or something -- they might have "answers" to the great unsolved questions, such as how life formed on Earth, or whether there's a "god" (whatever that means), or the purpose of life. But it just might be more opinions added to the pile. Something new to fight about.

I tend to think that I'll be long dead before this happens, and since the universe ends with me, it's ultimately just wool gathering speculation and a way to pass the time.

a reply to: TrueMessiah

To start out believer now turned skeptic is like moving backwards towards the truth.

I think it's more a case of accepting the truth , there is no actual evidence that ET have been here ,testimony from military witnesses is no better and perhaps in some cases worse than testimony from civilians , testimony is not evidence.
As it stands there is no evidence that ET even exists yet alone has the capability to travel the stars , perhaps advanced civilizations are like pearls in that not every Galaxy has one , when they do it's likely there's only one.

There was a study recently that concluded that perhaps the reason for the silence is we are early to the party , the Universe is still young and yet to reach its potential in terms of creating life .... sad thought but it should be considered.

I believe there is much life out there but see no evidence that it's capable of communicating with us , perhaps civilizations are short lived and technological advancement only comes to the few that make it through a Galactic natural selection , there are a lot of variables that need to align to create something on a level of us.

Until we find them or they show up we can't know for certain but on the evidence so far it doesn't look good.

originally posted by: WonOunce
How are Humans primitive?

We're a kind of crude mechanism that DNA uses to replicate itself. We're weak, considering we could be built of metal and could lift buildings. We break easily, and are very susceptible to infections. We have to carry a lot of water with us wherever we go, and keep refreshing it or die. We could live thousands of years, but we only live barely long enough to communicate some basic things about existence to the next generation. We can only see a very limited amount of the EM spectrum. We can't see gravity. Or time. A lot of our time and energy is taken up competing for food and shelter and reproduction. Our intelligence is severely limited by our biology.

We're "okay," but we certainly could be better. We dream of traveling to the stars, but the reality is that unless we build something nearly planet-sized, we're just not physically, mentally, or emotionally cut out for it.

originally posted by: MDT20
So just because we humans haven't discovered a way to space travel vast distances in space in a short period of time that means no other civilization in the Universe has? Give me a break and think beyond your noses. That's like in the past were they thought that the earth was flat and they were convinced of it, until all of them were proven wrong.

That's largely a myth.

Planet earth is composed of 70% water and only 30% earth.

Planet earth is composed of 0.16% water and 99.84% Earth, by volume. By mass it's less than 0.1% water and over 99.9% Earth.

Water covers a lot of the Earth's surface, but it's not very deep relative to the depth of the Earth.

Just because humans haven't found a way to travel through space without taking light years to get elsewhere, dosen't mean there's no way around it.

True, we don't know if aliens can break the speed of light or not, but the best you can say is it's an open question. It wouldn't be wise to assume they can, based on our admittedly limited knowledge which suggests that they might possibly be limited to the speed of light. Given predicted radiation levels one would experience when traveling close to the speed of light, perhaps the practical limit could be far less.

a reply to: penroc3

There are scientists who have estimated there could be as many as 3,000 civilizations that live in our Milky Way. And with an estimated 1 hundred billion, if not many more galaxies, I believe the odds are greatly in our favor that there is life all over, and everywhere in the one known universe, if not more than one.

a reply to: MDT20

UFO's have been photographed, hence there is no skeptic review.

The skeptic review is how the UFO manifested, and who caused it.

Our conscious awareness states that it was caused artificially, as it is an artificial spirit.

Artificial exists because it is invented.

We therefore already advised ourselves that scientists...the inventors created an artificial spirit to manifest.

Artificial to Planet Earth is nuclear fuel....nuclear fuel uses Earth's natural resources to form a fuel from out of dust.

The natural spirit or review of a created element is dust...not fuel.

An artificial product to Earth's natural life was invented on Planet Earth, by reviewing star information. A star is not a Planet.

Scientists therefore began converting Earth's natural spirit presence into an artificial spirit manifestation.

Our ancient wisdom that began scientific reasoning and scientific factoring is an occult realization.

We called the spirit embedded in the stone of Earth Satan, as the spirit of the dead or deceased/fallen angel.

O this is because Earth as all planets was formed from a light O circular body...and inside of it spirits formed as the light changed into a nuclear or burnt body of images. Satan's presence was therefore embedded in Earth and trapped/sealed inside of the Earth....called by the ancients the tomb of the dead/fallen angelic being.

Science/invention changed the natural spirit of Planet Earth and its stone...and opened the seals of the Dead.....Satan as a fallen angel...and also angelic cloud image changed into the Alien/anima and also UFO formed imagery in clouds.

These actualized events also photographed as self evident.

UFO's demonstrate that the formation manifestation is similar in shape to atomic orbital formation/imagery, involved in the nuclear production.

Therefore it is obvious that skepticism is part of the plan of disinformation, for the scientists do not want the public to realize that they caused the manifestation by changing the natural spirit of Earth.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Thanks for the reply - I'd never thought of it in those terms before.

originally posted by: MDT20
Think for a second and look around you. Look at the Universe and its vastness, all of its many mysteries yet to discover. There are trillions of galaxies, of planets, of stars, etc. We are nothing. We still are in pre history taking into consideration our very limited understanding of reality, of the Universe. It would be very ignorant and arrogant to assume or say that ufo's don't exist when there are thousands of reports from all around the world, be it from the military and other credible sources or common people who witness ufo's and even film the phenomenon.

That's assuming that UFO's represent visitors from another planet. But the thing is: we don't know that. That's why they're UFO's. Most of them are misidentified known phenomenae, and then there's a small percentage that remains unknown. Some of those are intriguing. Some represent such strangeness that they seem to hint at more of what we'd consider to be of paranormal origin. Then again, maybe they're just inflated stories.

Just because you haven't seen a real ufo in your life, dosen't mean that the phenomenon is not real or that it dosen't exist.

Well that's the problem. There is no 'phenomenon' that we can point to. There's too little consistency in the reports. There's all sorts of varying behaviour and qualities reported that we can't crystallize it as one phenomenon. It varies from seeing a pinpoint in the sky behaving weirdly to abductions complete with afterlife elements and profound spiritual implications, if true.

Just as there is a planet in space you haven't seen and aren't aware of its existence, but yet it exists and is part of reality. When I look at the stars and understand how insignificant we are, I know instantly that one can't say what is impossible when we have very limited knowledge of our Universe. And as there is more than one planet, star, galaxy, there may be even more than just one Universe. We don't even know if we really have been to the moon or if it was staged. Our own origin is a mystery. Therefore, taking our arrogance away, we have to admit that the Universe and its many mysteries to unravel surpass deeply our human logic. We will probably have to apply a different type of logic than that we are used to if we want to fully understand it. But even then we may be limited by our 5 senses. Just look at the quantum world, its a different logic than the one we are used to. What we all think as absurd may exist, since we can't say what is absurd or not when we only understand a very small percentage of reality and the rest is a complete mystery to us.

That again seems to assume that UFO's represent visitors from another planet, which once again we don't know. Have a look at Jacques Vallee's work for instance. A lot of UFO elements bare a strong resemblence to old folk stories, for instance. That doesn't mean that that's what's really happening, but there seems to be a similar event happening to some people that trigger such stories, whatever that event is or whatever the level of reality of it is.

Artificial exists because it is the occult.

Occult is science.

Science is invention.

Invention takes a naturally formed product and changes it unnaturally.

Science and invention causes artificial outcomes....artificial is called conjuring the evil spirit.

The evil spirit is a spirit that is released from out of its natural seal.

Satan in the natural seal is the natural chemical....only natural when it is sealed as its own product.

Science changes the product and alchemizes the product...to form artificial

Satan therefore is released.

Satan is then alchemized in a different artificial invention status of a human beings science.

Satan is then changed into an alien...for the artificial chemical reactions cause the alien.

Satan is destroyed as a spirit.

Satan the fallen angel was the light angelic sound that supported all evolution of natural life on Planet Earth.

Science changed natural life on Planet Earth by inventing.

They state inventing is natural.

Invention is not natural.

Nuclear fuel does not exist on Planet Earth...the holiness of life on Earth is dust...the reason why the ancient occultist called DUST HOLY is because they changed the holiness of DUST and also got attacked by ALIENS.

This is what occult realization is all about.

You don't know of ETV. You believe it. Skeptics will know about ETV when there is proof of it. Skeptics aren't always skeptics for life. They have the ability to change, according to the evidence presented.

The only difference between you and the skeptic, is that at present, you accept ETV with insufficient evidence, while skeptics do not.

Also, UFO does not equate to alien ship. It is merely unidentified, and that name is perfectly acceptable.

Skepticism is about preserving the empirical process.

It's about demanding evidence before coming to judgement about the things they are shown and told.

The very word Skeptic comes from an insult in ancient greek times meant to put down anybody who questioned the establishment.

Legitimate UFO investigators are skeptical of the government's handling of the topic of UFO's.

UFO Skeptics are skeptical of the evidence that has been presented (i.e. not willing to jump to conclusions until all avenues of explanation have been investigated)

And then you have zealots on either side of the debate.

But there are also 1000's of reports of Bigfoot, ghosts, religious deities and Elvis. Doesn't mean they are credible.
Just because the Universe is mysterious.

I personally believe there are some good ufo sightings. But are they military or strange plasma or whatever?
Your whole argument could be applied to some new type of plasma that we don't understand that would account for all of the luminous orb type sightings. Especially the lights in Sweden where they built an observation shed to observe the lights.

a reply to: MDT20
It has nothing to do with sceptisisme. Everybody is sceptic, special when its about UFO's. It is just plain stupid to claim that the need evedence. There is no evedence that I exist, stll nobody doubt my existence.
If you study the facts, then you cant deny the ufo-fenomene.
Ps. Sorry for my english