How I feel about guns. A friendly discourse.

a reply to: GamleGamle

I would say you're close in thinking it's poverty, but let's look at that word in a broader sense. It's equal opportunity, in fact that is the biggest problem. We have a class structure here. Lower class, Middle class, Upper class, Ruling class. We no longer have a 'Priest Class', though we do still have TV evangelists.

As far as having a class or a system that protects us, we no longer have that. We have a totally corrupt Law Enforcement 'class' who associate with criminals and have adopted most of their methods, because 'crime does pay' and we under pay our LEOs, and the top brass have a hidden political agenda, so they either turn a blind eye to corruption, encourage it in some aspects (have an enforcer cop/loose cannon), or will do anything to get convictions, including knowingly incriminate people, allow planting of evidence.

So, the 'opportunity' here is actually happening as a back-lash phenomenon. All across the strata of our society from 18 year old girls who are phenoms in three gun competition to women taking firearms classes and getting permits and open carrying to the elderly. Crime is at an all-time low in many places. Criminals are moving to 'gun-free zones' (MD, CA, Il, Mass, RI, NJ), or going to small towns, and away from places where a significant percentage of law-abiding residents might be armed.

Most mass-shootings occur in 'Gun Free Zones', schools, certain businesses, churches, because criminals and even allegedly mental cases might be delusional but they're not stupid (it appears).

The gubmint and gub-controlled liberal media is corrupting and outright lying about crime rates and mass shooting rates and firearm deaths. Other methods of suicide are still as frequently used as firearms, including purposeful prescription medicine overdoses, suffocation, exsanguination. (50.9% firearms, 49.1% other combined). One would suspect that given the liberal agenda (demonizing firearms) this number might be inflated.

Remember those people who said things like 'give people the right to carry and if a crime happens the streets will be running with blood, people will be drawing guns and shooting at the bad guy'? Well it never happened. LAC carriers are extremely reluctant to use their firearms and 90% of crimes stopped by the presence of a firearm happen with the mere sight of the gun by the BG. Even multiple armed home invaders will run if confronted by an elderly homeowner with a revolver - they're cowards and opportunists (and again not stupid - they seek easy prey).

In all the people I've talked to having a carry permit or open carrying has made them very aware of the responsibility and they are polite, kind, lowered aggression, are reluctant to engage in road-rage. The people one meets here at gun shows are extremely nice, polite and friendly. I feel extremely safe there...though I was surprised at first. Even the LEOs who are at these shows are low-key, friendly and laugh a lot (they usually have two of them in the lobby). They don't seem upset or alarmed when they see people leaving the show with armloads of all kinds of handguns, ammo and ARs and shotguns. When we have a gun show here if you get there 10 min late you have to drive around looking for places to park - they're packed for the 8 hrs/day Sat and Sun and this town only has 20,000 residents.

They still have crime here, knifings, shootings but they seem rare.

So to recap, poverty of spirit, poverty of opportunity, poverty of independent thought those lead to certain criminal elements flourishing, and they are not limited to low-lifes. Gangs, politicians, law-enforcement, judicial system, all have members who abuse their power. If there were financial class strata, I still think there'd be violent crime, because some people are greedy, aggressive and emotionally-driven (out-of-control). There would still be domestic violence (even if just cabin-fever syndrome). Males and narcissists and sociopaths are not cured by having financial means. Certain patriarchal-ethnic types have a tradition of narcissistic behavior, abuse of females and children.

Again, it boils down to the fact that each person must be able to defend themselves on an individual basis, empowered and capable, against 'bullying' in all its forms.

Gun laws do nothing. CRIMINALS are criminal because they don't care about laws.

Id rather take the risk of having some nut shoot up a restaurant Im in, and have my side arm and the opportunity to defend myself than otherwise.

People use the word fear but I don't think it's fear. I always wanted a permit to carry a gun, no real reason other than I wanted to. I never got the permit because something else always took precedence. At the ripe old age of 46 I finally went ahead and got one. I've had guns since I was in my 20's. I've never needed one for protection or ever felt like I need one, well there is that one time in Detroit when I walked into a bathroom and there was a group of hoodlums hanging out, I left. I would have left even if I had a gun. Excuse my rambling, anyhow I now have a license to carry and I always do. I don't carry out of fear. When I leave my house I just grab my keys, wallet and my gun, no biggie. My wife didn't like it at first but now she's used to it. Originally I planned to only carry while hunting or when I go to the city but then I started thinking, why? You never know when something's going to happen. Earlier this year a girl was jogging in Traverse City and was attacked by a bear, you just never know when. It's isn't fear, it's being prepared for just in case. I also have a fire extinguisher in my house, a jack, spare tire and extra battery in my car.

a reply to: 8fl0z

In response to your claim, I googled to find research that would validate or invalidate your claim directly.

Surprisingly the first thing I came across were some articles stating that a gun lobby had successfully stopped major funding into researching the causes and effects of gun violence from a medical perspective..... saying its anti-gun research...... So at the very least they fear any outcome from major research into the subject. Fear that it would hurt their bottom line....

I found this interesting, anyone care to debunk or validate it? www.joycefdn.org...

Kind Regards

originally posted by: GamleGamle

Back to the main subject. Not touching your guns. Keep your gun, but do you consider any form of further Gun Control as a bad thing, and if so why is it so extremely bad? I can imagine it not helping much, but why would it be a terrible thing.

Gun control isn't the idea though. If that's all it was, it woudln't be an issue. It's the sneaky, "let's outlaw this type of gun, then we can slowly add to that list and eventually, get them all". Now weather that's the endgame or not, that is exactly how it's perceived by the public who owns guns.

The reality is, we have laws against murder, rape, robbery, and all the other crimes that might occur, yet we still have people commit these crimes, and some with a gun. So the laws are't going to deter the criminals. Why is that? Perhaps not enough of a punishment is levied on the guilty party. If accountability was more important than political correctness, that might change.

Do you have a good mental health care system in your country? I only ask because in the US we don't. And while I may not be the "least crazy" person on the Earth, I feel that violence is not a good answer, those that enjoy violence, in my opinion, are mentally unstable and need help. They are the one's killing, robbing, and committing crimes as I see it. (oh and running our country as well)

a reply to: Irishhaf

The truth is that it won't stop a bad guy, even here in the Netherlands there are shootings, mostly in the criminal circuit.
The Dutch legislation did not stop Volkert from the green left party who killed Pim Fortuyn, or Muhammed who killed Theo van Gogh.

But despite that the Netherlands is quite safe, the legislation is of course for all, good and bad.
Those who have a gun without a permit are simply breaking the law and will be very careful in order not to get caught.

My notion is that life is a lot more relaxed, no crazy people who can decide to start shooting at a school or in a mall because they do not have the luxury to go home and pick up a weapon like in the US.
Certainly the police is a lot more relaxed (and better trained) they are prohibited to draw their weapon during an arrest unless of course weapons are involved.
The chance of that happening is small here in the Netherlands, but if it happens, they will shoot in the legs to neutralize the suspect if the situation is threatening.

If most of the craziness is due to illegal immigrants and and drugs gangs i would say that it does help to implement legislation that prohibits people to have guns without a licence.
Meaning people can have guns, but they have a permit for it and follow the regulations on how to keep the gun safe from others.

A good reason? how many fathers, mothers, daughters, sons have died because of shootings in the last three or four years alone.
If i lived in the US, i would be well aware of the chance that it could have been, or will be in the coming years, someone in my family.

a reply to: GamleGamle

I do not really get what you are saying. Could you clarify a bit more?

I'd be glad to, thank you. First, I admire the heck out of your civility. Second, we have guns. We don't have weapons. We Americans spend hundreds of billions of dollars every year to buy weapons for our military to protect us and you. Also, we have no need to violently remove our politicians, we have a system for that. IF that system goes caput and some schmo or schmucks attempts to take us over, like the English, THEN and only THEN do we all own weapons. Lastly, we don't give our belongings, guns or otherwise, to any SOB that states we have to. They are more than welcome to try. In closing, I will admit, we are a very strange lot - but WE love ourselves and we allow only so much control, it's a Murican thing.....

a reply to: donktheclown

Do the words "Civil Forfeiture" happen to mean anything to you?

originally posted by: GamleGamle
Back to the main subject. Not touching your guns. Keep your gun, but do you consider any form of further Gun Control as a bad thing, and if so why is it so extremely bad? I can imagine it not helping much, but why would it be a terrible thing.

That depends entirely on the specifics of the gun control proposal. On general principle, I think most of us would agree that its a very good idea to prevent violent criminals, the seriously mentally ill, etc, from accessing firearms. The manner in which that is accomplished is more contentious. Primarily, there needs to be a recognition of the fact that the overwhelming majority of gun owners are law-abiding citizens and that their rights as such should be respected and protected. Given your opening post, I think you understand this, at least to a certain degree. Too often, we don't see it, either in terms of public discourse or in the proposals made by some in our government, but its a necessity if there's ever to be any common ground on this issue.

OP. Your post is refreshing and appears to be a rare, honest one, on the subject of guns. You are articulate and don't appear to have a dog in the fight, as you're from the Neatherlands.

But I have to say, I had to smile, when I read your OP.

Just remember this. There are Americans. Then there are americans (not capitalized for a reason), that wish they were European.

The answers will vary.

a reply to: Maverick7

Well we have a class system as well, that is pretty much the same as yours, albeit less pronounced.
Religion has taken a back seat for the most part here.

We do not have an overly corrupt police force. Just recently it was found out that some ranking officer who had extensive long term dealings with organized crime was actually feeding them information and lining his pockets. Well he has been tackled and it became national news. It got inquiry from members of what you would consider our Congress.

Its sad when crime is dropping, but police are just another shade of that crime they are supposed to prevent. Then its no wonder people like to take justice into their own hands. If crime is actually moving to small towns, I wonder if it truly has dropped or it is just less documented?

Your posts somehow make me think of the latest South Park episode although their hook was that the threat of gun violence made people open up verbally. Hahaha. I still can not decide if they were actually advocating guns or if they intended hyperbole to point how idiotic it is to believe guns actually solve disputes.....? meh.

As for the Gun Free zones, I can imagine it either necessary for all places to be gun free, or no place at all. Because Ill wanting people can be many things, but not stupid in a practical sense as you say. Just as migrants seek security by moving to richer countries and welfare states, so do the criminals seek havens to practice their trade..... Now that people are becoming their own police force.

( Had to look up Exsanguination. Learned a new difficult word. Yai!. ) From your own wording gun suicide still seems like a big deal, even if the numbers are inflated. Well Pharmaceutical companies may certainly be the bigger evil. I just have not made a thread about that. Will have to look into that at some point. Seeing if I can add a perspective that I deem under represented on ATS.

Much of what you say aligns with my own remarks about how remarkable it is that despite the presence of a great amount of guns in your country, so little seems to go wrong on the whole. Meaning their are a whole lot of very response able people out there.

I do wonder though how it is possible that crime is lower than ever or at least lower than it has been in a long time, but violent gangs are on the rise. As far as I can tell both the drop in violent crime and the rise in violent gangs are factual and broadly carried as true.

A Forbes article said that a drop in crime could be correlated with the maturation of the millennial generation into the prime crime age bracket. 18-24. Saying they are simply less aggressive, but they do not really understand why.

But having said all that. Here in Europe I am perfectly fine with the gun laws as they are now. I simply have never had the need to defend myself in that way. The worst thing that happened to me is that my bicycles throughout the years had been repeatedly stolen. No violence involved. As they do this only when there is an opportunity.

It just makes me wonder, for all the current sociological-economic reasons to not take away or regulate guns any more than strictly necessary, and all the cultural and historic reasoning why its part of your national identity. No matter how slim the possibility of a lot of the underlying problems you have outlined being solved. They theoretically can be solved.If they were solved.... would there still be an argument for necessitating gun ownership as a right protected by Law?

Take away the crime and corruption culture, and what is left of the necessity? It doesn't have to be that way. I do not wish to advocate pipe dreams, but I do like to have faith and stay flexible.

Makes me think of an anecdotal story someone once told me about how people in Japanese urban centers do not lock their doors. Simply because they do not have to. The fines are so steep that if you ever get caught robbing a place or fighting in the streets.... your life is basically over. So an extremely good deterrent. I can understand this. Somehow the endless hopeless financially indebted servitude scares me more than the sudden end of my life by a bullet. Just saying societies can function on very different values and still function.

Thank you for your imput.

Kind Regards.

a reply to: chefc14

A valid point coming from a sensible gun owner.
In our country the only potential wildlife that could be considered dangerous are in wild life reserves. Warded by natural or artificial barriers. One of the biggest beaches and greatest imaginative breakdowns is that almost every little tucked away space has some pre planned purpose in a bigger design. In one word BORING, but also smart.

Kind Regards.

a reply to: network dude

We have a ""good"" mental health system in the sense that its very "good" at finding and keeping tabs on risky individuals by letting them stay either permanently or semi-perm in and out of institutions. Also we may have a somewhat more realistic and mature system of prescribing drugs. Also internal communications between different departments of mental health, medical health and social services can be considered quite streamlined compared to many other countries. So all in all yes. I may not always agree with how things are handled though, but they are definitely being handled one way or another.

Its to bad people have this deep seated believe that the gov is out for their guns. It only means they are underestimating the immense cost of such an undertaking. I won't lie, US citizenry to me more often than not seem to lack a brain to many, but guns is something that will not be taken away any time soon or in anyway easily.

Thank you for your imput.

Kind Regards.

a reply to: earthling42

You make a good point that I was aware of, but had not crossed my mind to write down.
Police are well trained in non violent de-escalisation of volatile situations. To the point that guns are rarely needed.
Its always a semi big thing when Police had to shoot at someone again, even in the legs. Even when their is an exchange of sorts between criminals and police, it always seems to be more laid back then in the US. Everybody is just doing their job so to speak. Criminals committing crime, and police trying to apprehend them. Both parties respecting one another on some basic level without making it an all out war.

I certainly get where you are coming from, with what your saying, I am just trying to meet the good US citizenry here halfway.

Kind Regards

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn

Some people are just proud like that, not much sense in arguing those kinds of positions when you see them. He's just a straightforward fella that's probably a great drinking buddy. . Lol. Sorry if I offend you ""donktheclown"". To me everything you say is perfectly fine since you open with a compliment. Even though I might not completely agree. haha.

Kind Regards

a reply to: vor78

You know. Everything you say to me sounds only natural.
Any legislation or laws implemented should make it more difficult for criminals and the mentally unstable and not the average law abiding Joe. This is just common sense.

How to actually do that is up to debate, and something I am not very versed in. In that sense I like everyone to debate those points here, because I do find them interesting and wish to learn.

Thank you for your input and as always kind regards

a reply to: murphy22

In any discussion about a complex subject there are many layers. I might say one thing to one and another thing to another.
This may seem lacking honesty or backbone, but I just see how some ideas can be nonsensical in the mind of one and completely logical in the mind of another. Either by how they deal with the idea or the very real circumstances they are living in. As in principal the lawful presence of guns or the lack thereof means little to me, as the human element is always the deciding factor in what actually happens.

Yes the answers vary. Almost all the students that come to study here are social democrats with liberalism on the side and almost all of them really really like it here. The only critique I have only ever received is that the dutch are a little to direct which is uncomfortable and we seem to lack spezazzz or umph, whatever that may mean. There is no Dutch dream, but they do like our educational system....

originally posted by: GamleGamle

Its to bad people have this deep seated believe that the gov is out for their guns. It only means they are underestimating the immense cost of such an undertaking. I won't lie, US citizenry to me more often than not seem to lack a brain to many, but guns is something that will not be taken away any time soon or in anyway easily.

Thank you for your imput.

Kind Regards.

I agree that in no way shape or form will the government be able to take guns away from it's citizens. We have a system in place to protect that. But we also have to be vigilant that the system remains in tact. Sadly, we have laws about treason, and rarely enact them when they should be used.

There is a segment of the population that firmly believes that no citizen should own a firearm. And they are large enough to have a political voice. So while the treat isn't realistic, it does exist. And if all of the gun owners just sat on our hands and watched, more and more little pieces of those rights would be chipped away at, until you had to go to a gun club to shoot your own damn rifle.

Sadly, when the gun control talk is heard, no matter what the content it, it's meat with the same contempt. I suppose seeing the snake in the grass and having it bite you multiple times will eventually teach you to avoid the snake altogether.

If the US was a small little country like yours, then I could easily see it being the nice safe place you describe as well. With it's vast expanses, open borders, and government war on anything, it's nothing like a nice little country such as yours, but it's home and I am happy and proud to call it such.

a reply to: wildb

I had a big long reply typed out, but I accidentally closed my laptop last night before I finished.

Anyway, Amsterdam seemed pretty nice to me. The people all seemed to be doing OK and it didn't feel oppressive. Amsterdam is in the Netherlands, where the author of this thread is from.

I actually spent a night on the streets there because I had no hostel room or hotel room. I never felt in danger wandering around the empty streets alone at night.

Sure, they pay higher taxes -- but they also GET something for those taxes. Education, health care, public works and infrastructure...financial security that they won't become homeless if a horrible life tragedy happens to them.

a reply to: network dude

Well I hope this thread somewhat lightens the spirit that talking about guns does not have to be a war onto itself. Or a argument trap.

I am just lucky that I live in a small relatively rich country right at the center of the EU influence sphere, buffered only by extremely rich and powerful nations.

I hope the polarization of the subject can be lessened over time. Why must it always be a confrontation of extremes? I think if you would understand the inner workings of our politics you would call us all moderates.

Live Long and prosper.