Harry Reid, John Lewis assail 'racist' Scalia comments

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: Xtrozero

I agree that Affirmative Action is racist. It separates people by skin color and then gives them preferential admissions status.

How is that not racist?

Did you not read Edumakated post above.
However I do think affirmative Action should be class based if we are going to have one, and I think solutions are out there that should be expand upon and perhaps may even be more effective than Affirmative action.
Urban Prep Graduates All College-Bound For Fourth Year In A Row
www.huffingtonpost.com...
And yes Scalia was being a douche.

a reply to: Edumakated

What they want to do is remove the system where points toward admission are awarded based on your ethnicity, and yes, it does happen. There are some systems that go so far now as to actively penalize Asian Americans/Asians because they tend to score so high on their admissions tests (ACT/SAT).

There shouldn't be those points to weight different admission based on ethnicity.

a reply to: Spider879

You are talking about specialized schools.

Where I am at, there is one high school in the system that does a good job preparing urban students for college, but it's one high school out of five or six in the district. Those other schools also send candidates on into the college system, and their programs are nowhere near as good the sole college prep school.

You cite a similar example.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Spider879

You are talking about specialized schools.

Where I am at, there is one high school in the system that does a good job preparing urban students for college, but it's one high school out of five or six in the district. Those other schools also send candidates on into the college system, and their programs are nowhere near as good the sole college prep school.

You cite a similar example.

That's what I am referring to, copy and expand what Urban Prep is doing be it within the public school system itself which would be great or something akin to a Juku.

originally posted by: jellyrev

It is a public school and inner city culture issue. This prevents blacks from getting the similar level of education and thus the gpa, test scores, and college prep are lower than that of a typical white person.

Schools up through high school teach rather basic material, so I do not understand why one school would not be able to provide the material needed and another school does. I think it is more of a culture issue in people (any color) do not put the effort in to achieve when the culture around them is negative. How about Whites, Spanish, Asian, and so on that come from what we would call bad neighborhoods?

originally posted by: Edumakated

The argument I often hear is that more qualified applicants were turned down. The problem with this argument is that it assumes the only qualifications are GPA and test scores. That simply is not the case.

Then why have affirmative action at all. You forgot one aspect to these law firms and like companies. Yes they pick from the top schools, but they also pick the rock stars from those schools. You go to Harvard and average a C you might become president (joke) but you will not work for a top company unless you got connections. I personally feel there are enough blacks out there to do well in major colleges without a need to give them extra credit for color. The blacks that come from bad neighborhoods, bad families, poor schools that hurt their chances etc..join the club, there are a lot across all ethnic groups and in the end it all comes down to will power of the individual.

originally posted by: jellyrev
Thomas Sowell I'm pretty sure made this argument before. I think he actually showed if a black can get an advanced degree he/she will make more than the white counterpart bc "diversity hire"

It is a public school and inner city culture issue. This prevents blacks from getting the similar level of education and thus the gpa, test scores, and college prep are lower than that of a typical white person.

Yes but you have to quantify that, as the kids of Black Caribbeans and Africans especially Nigerians are also urban and run rings around just about everyone else.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Edumakated

What they want to do is remove the system where points toward admission are awarded based on your ethnicity, and yes, it does happen. There are some systems that go so far now as to actively penalize Asian Americans/Asians because they tend to score so high on their admissions tests (ACT/SAT).

There shouldn't be those points to weight different admission based on ethnicity.

Yes it does. You also get points for being a female. You also get preferential treatment for a lot of things. If your parents or siblings are alumni, you also get points for that too. Athletics. Musical ability. Work experience. Life experience.

The point I am making is that these schools have acceptance rates of like 10%. So if you have 1000 applicants, only 100 are going to be accepted. They may have 300 applicants with perfect scores. So regardless of their perfect scores, they still will not get accepted. For these schools, the admissions criteria is very nuanced and qualitative. They don't care about perfect scores because perfect scores are a dime a dozen. You have to be unique to stand out.

When someone is qualified to attend any of these top schools, they will get into at least one of the schools they apply. Applicants usually have one or two schools they consider their "reach" school, another two or three which are just as good, but maybe not quite but they still have a good shot of attending, and then you get your "safety" which is a school you most certainly meet all the criteria. Hardly anyone gets into ALL the schools they apply to.

For example, if you are qualified, you might not get into Harvard but you may get into Stanford. Or you might get rejected at MIT, but get into Cal Tech. Or you might get into UT Austin but rejected at Michigan. You basically will get accepted into at least one of the schools in a representative tier that you are truly qualified to attend.

For Universities, the test scores are just a proxy to help them weed out applicants because there is no possible way they can consider every last applicant with any level of detail.

The admissions committees are trying to construct a class they feel will be beneficial to all the students. They want a variety of backgrounds and experiences.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Edumakated

The argument I often hear is that more qualified applicants were turned down. The problem with this argument is that it assumes the only qualifications are GPA and test scores. That simply is not the case.

Then why have affirmative action at all. You forgot one aspect to these law firms and like companies. Yes they pick from the top schools, but they also pick the rock stars from those schools. You go to Harvard and average a C you might become president (joke) but you will not work for a top company unless you got connections. I personally feel there are enough blacks out there to do well in major colleges without a need to give them extra credit for color. The blacks that come from bad neighborhoods, bad families, poor schools that hurt their chances etc..join the club, there are a lot across all ethnic groups and in the end it all comes down to will power of the individual.

Trust me, you much rather graduate at the bottom of your class at Harvard versus the top of your class at Devry. You simply cannot compare the opportunities you get at these schools with much lower tier schools. Even if you aren't at the top of the class, you will still get opportunities not available to students at lower tier schools.

Just having some of these schools on your resume will open doors. This is why people don't like affirmative action as they erroneously believe their opportunity was taken.

Everything is racist anymore to certain groups. Even the truth.

a reply to: Spider879

They don't have the cultural issues that generally dog the generational African-Americans who have generally been destroyed by lack of family.

Those of African descent who have immigrated here aren't contaminated by the victim mentality and cultural degradation inherent in the Welfare State.

a reply to: Edumakated

And if the point is to provide strong academics, why do they need to "construct" a community? Any such "community" they construct is only going to be artificial in nature no matter what.

It's like the ridiculous claim that a business is somehow doing something wrong if it's workforce does no reflect the overall percentages and proportions of the societal makeup of the community you find it in.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Edumakated

And if the point is to provide strong academics, why do they need to "construct" a community? Any such "community" they construct is only going to be artificial in nature no matter what.

It's like the ridiculous claim that a business is somehow doing something wrong if it's workforce does no reflect the overall percentages and proportions of the societal makeup of the community you find it in.

Because a diverse community leads to stronger academics for everyone. It is a situation where the number of spots is limited and the schools are in a position to where they can select who they believe best fit the school. Simply having a high GPA and test score is not enough in such a competitive environment.

I worked for a top management consulting firm that mostly only recruited from the Ivy League and similar schools. We could easily have filled our ranks with 4.0 graduates. While test scores and GPA were certainly important, they don't necessarily tell the whole story. Some of these people are socially awkward and I wouldn't put them in front of client to save my life. Nor would I want to be stuck working with them in close quarters for 80 hours a week.

However, the guy with the 3.25% GPA but served in numerous leadership positions while in school may be great at interacting with clients and still smart enough to get the work done.

These challenges to affirmative action are being brought because some whites feel the are entitled to attend certain schools. They have this belief that if they attend a certain school, it will open a door that will make their life easier.

What many of you don't get is that this is an upper class issue. This isn't about some poor white kid from a trailer park missing his shot at Harvard. It is about some upper class kid thinking they are entitled to attend a certain school.

These upper class kids are led down this path from birth to attend these schools. It is a lot deeper than just reverse racism. This is a 1%er issue that many people simply cannot relate to because they don't move in this circle.

originally posted by: Edumakated

Because a diverse community leads to stronger academics for everyone. It is a situation where the number of spots is limited and the schools are in a position to where they can select who they believe best fit the school. Simply having a high GPA and test score is not enough in such a competitive environment.

I understand what you are saying but I'm missing the point as to why affirmative action plays into all of this if the school can on their own go out and get that black kid with average grades but supper great leadership skills. This once again shows that the school is picking who they see as their best choice without the need for affirmative action. Also I guess only black diversity is important and not Spanish, Asian or another of others...hehe

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Edumakated

Because a diverse community leads to stronger academics for everyone. It is a situation where the number of spots is limited and the schools are in a position to where they can select who they believe best fit the school. Simply having a high GPA and test score is not enough in such a competitive environment.

I understand what you are saying but I'm missing the point as to why affirmative action plays into all of this if the school can on their own go out and get that black kid with average grades but supper great leadership skills. This once again shows that the school is picking who they see as their best choice without the need for affirmative action. Also I guess only black diversity is important and not Spanish, Asian or another of others...hehe

What do you think affirmative action is? What you described is what the schools are doing. Affirmative action also applies to white females, other ethnicities, etc. Schools make all kinds of concessions to get the student body they want. Like I said earlier, a white kid from Iowa whose parents were farmers probably has a better shot at Harvard than many blacks from upper middle class families.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Edumakated

Because a diverse community leads to stronger academics for everyone. It is a situation where the number of spots is limited and the schools are in a position to where they can select who they believe best fit the school. Simply having a high GPA and test score is not enough in such a competitive environment.

I understand what you are saying but I'm missing the point as to why affirmative action plays into all of this if the school can on their own go out and get that black kid with average grades but supper great leadership skills. This once again shows that the school is picking who they see as their best choice without the need for affirmative action. Also I guess only black diversity is important and not Spanish, Asian or another of others...hehe

Again Affirmative Action do not apply only to Black kids I understand that many use AAs as the poster child for such but it's not correct.

a reply to: Xtrozero

What he said is accurate. If someone only gains college admittance based on skin color, then they shouldn't be gaining it at all. Either a person is good enough, and color isn't an issue, or they aren't good enough. and color isn't an issue. Work harder, study more, and earn it. Giving something to someone for skin color is what's racist.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Edumakated

And if the point is to provide strong academics, why do they need to "construct" a community? Any such "community" they construct is only going to be artificial in nature no matter what.

It's like the ridiculous claim that a business is somehow doing something wrong if it's workforce does no reflect the overall percentages and proportions of the societal makeup of the community you find it in.

Well a small family based business that moved into a community that hire from within the family and then friends and quintessences that's understandable, but a mid to major corporation that moved into a community and only hire folks that looked only like the owners, is called gentrification and if add that to city jobs like the fire and police dept then you will have social problems.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Xtrozero

What he said is accurate. If someone only gains college admittance based on skin color, then they shouldn't be gaining it at all. Either a person is good enough, and color isn't an issue, or they aren't good enough. and color isn't an issue. Work harder, study more, and earn it. Giving something to someone for skin color is what's racist.

Again acceptance is NOT! based on skin color alone how many times must this be said.

originally posted by: Edumakated

What do you think affirmative action is? What you described is what the schools are doing. Affirmative action also applies to white females, other ethnicities, etc.

I been reading other ethnic groups are complaining that it is not for them. My point was if this is what schools want to do and what employers want, once again why do we need it.