Satan's part in the Creation?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Hell is also an invention post bible. This one doesn't even show up in the NT as well as the OT. The Bible does make mention of Gehenna and the pit of flame, but Gehenna is meant to just me underground and the pit of flame is for the beast of Revelation and not for humans.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Hell is also an invention post bible. This one doesn't even show up in the NT as well as the OT. The Bible does make mention of Gehenna and the pit of flame, but Gehenna is meant to just me underground and the pit of flame is for the beast of Revelation and not for humans.

Even the Lake of Fire must give up its dead, just as the sea did, when death itself is abolished. As I always say, after Death and Hell [the grave, actually] are cast into the LoF, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell? Further, if God is to become All in all, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell? No Hell believer has yet to give me an answer.

originally posted by: Layaly
a reply to: Learningman

if God created all who created God

aren't we part of it all

I like the replies here a lot

lovely thread

This assumes that God was created. As far as I'm aware, the common belief is that God is uncreated. If you think that is impossible, then you probably think in terms of opposites. If the universe exists now, then it must have not existed before. Maybe that line of thinking just is not true.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: scorpio84

Satan really doesn't have a part in the Creation account because he wasn't invented until Christianity was invented (the NT), though that hasn't prevented Christians from trying to retcon him into older biblical tales.

Then who is that in the Book of Noah?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

You uh....are aware of the oral tradition and the use of storytelling around ancient tribal campfires to pass the time.

Amazing, so many focus on one singular interpretation of this singular account of God's Creation and Manifestations, and then fight so vigilantly with the barbarism they do defending their opinions. As if just casual conversation was a sin for some reason in their fettered minds, and they cannot abide and turn to the thought of war at every opportunity, however minor or slight.

I weep for you, truly....I do.

So much beauty in this world and you're arguing over wordplay and minor semantics as if to prove yourself.

Ask yourself sometime in the dark dead of your night - who exactly are you trying to convince here? Mere mortals? Or yourself? Perhaps you feel called upon to be the Hand of God, as if the New Testament brought you no comfort in a jaded and suffered upon mind.

Your overtly harsh methodology leaves me only sad and speechless....another in a long line of offhand literalist who worship the printed word itself like a idolatrous image, and fail to comprehend any of the higher precepts contained in the work in question.

But hey, maybe you just like fighting others because you can't overcome your own internal dissociation.

Meh. Whatever.

After all, who am I to judge?

Peace be with you....and your spirit...should you deign to allow such to happen.

I know all too well it is difficult to let things go, but practice makes perfect.

Good day, Sir.

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES
a reply to: Lazarus Short

You uh....are aware of the oral tradition and the use of storytelling around ancient tribal campfires to pass the time.

Amazing, so many focus on one singular interpretation of this singular account of God's Creation and Manifestations, and then fight so vigilantly with the barbarism they do defending their opinions. As if just casual conversation was a sin for some reason in their fettered minds, and they cannot abide and turn to the thought of war at every opportunity, however minor or slight.

I weep for you, truly....I do.

So much beauty in this world and you're arguing over wordplay and minor semantics as if to prove yourself.

Ask yourself sometime in the dark dead of your night - who exactly are you trying to convince here? Mere mortals? Or yourself? Perhaps you feel called upon to be the Hand of God, as if the New Testament brought you no comfort in a jaded and suffered upon mind.

Your overtly harsh methodology leaves me only sad and speechless....another in a long line of offhand literalist who worship the printed word itself like a idolatrous image, and fail to comprehend any of the higher precepts contained in the work in question.

But hey, maybe you just like fighting others because you can't overcome your own internal dissociation.

Meh. Whatever.

After all, who am I to judge?

Peace be with you....and your spirit...should you deign to allow such to happen.

I know all too well it is difficult to let things go, but practice makes perfect.

Good day, Sir.

After mentioning oral tales told around ancient tribal campfires which neither of us sat around, you spend several paragraphs judging me, then it's "After all, who am I to judge?" I challenged you to throw up a real foundation for what you were trying to say. Now I just want to throw up. Yeah, just dismiss it as more wordplay, but I happen to like wordplay. BTW, I don't worship the printed word or my interpretation of it, but I worship the God who I see behind the lines: wheels within wheels, codes inside of codes, line upon line, precept upon precept...

The day will surely come when the two of us will walk together to the holy mountain, and worship there together.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Even the Lake of Fire must give up its dead, just as the sea did, when death itself is abolished. As I always say, after Death and Hell [the grave, actually] are cast into the LoF, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell? Further, if God is to become All in all, how can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell? No Hell believer has yet to give me an answer.

I think you are confusing death of the terrestrial body with death of the spirit of that terrestrial body. The last enemy is death of the terrestrial body. Why? Because there will no longer be any terrestrial bodies to die. This happens as the entire creation (universe) is destroyed at the end of this age.

Hell (Sheol) is a terrestrial place and at the end time all life which is in hell (Sheol) is also cast into the lake of ethereal fire. It does not mean that the place called hell or Sheol will move into a lake of fire. It means that those life forms (Spirits) that were cast into hell are then transferred into the lake of fire. As the entire world is destroyed, all humans who were alive at that time will die and then be judged and some will also face the second death which is that death of the spirit. This means that they are also cast into the Lake of fire. This then means that there are two places for all of the creation that was destroyed. Everyone is now a spirit. There is no more flesh. You and I are either in the lake of fire or in the kingdom of God.

Then The Word Of God (Jesus) will return unto His source (God) and be all in all. This means that The Word which is the visibility of God will return to His source and once more be united with His Spirit. What is left? A civilization of justified people with new celestial bodies living upon a new world and in a city New Jerusalem. This civilization will be sustained with the food and water of life forever with no more death or age. This is basically the doctrine of Christ Jesus.

Confusion comes when one reads rabbinic doctrine along with the doctrine of Jesus. These two doctrines are both side by side in the NT because the Apostles were born and raised with the rabbinic doctrine before Jesus introduced His doctrine. It then became a gradual learning process for all of the disciples of Christ Jesus before and even after His death. This is one of the reasons that we cannot play with verses without the entire thought being presented. This means that we need to be taught by scholars instead of most Sunday school teachers.

Another great important fact is that we do not have the original autographs (Letters) of the Disciples and Apostles. Actually we do not know whether the original autographs were in Greek or were in Hebrew and Aramaic. We have a lot to learn and probably will never learn all of the truth. Word playing is very dangerous and can lead to many different understandings and assumptions of the same incident.

Seede:
I think you are confusing death of the terrestrial body with death of the spirit of that terrestrial body. The last enemy is death of the terrestrial body. Why? Because there will no longer be any terrestrial bodies to die. This happens as the entire creation (universe) is destroyed at the end of this age.

Hell (Sheol) is a terrestrial place and at the end time all life which is in hell (Sheol) is also cast into the lake of ethereal fire. It does not mean that the place called hell or Sheol will move into a lake of fire. It means that those life forms (Spirits) that were cast into hell are then transferred into the lake of fire. As the entire world is destroyed, all humans who were alive at that time will die and then be judged and some will also face the second death which is that death of the spirit. This means that they are also cast into the Lake of fire. This then means that there are two places for all of the creation that was destroyed. Everyone is now a spirit. There is no more flesh. You and I are either in the lake of fire or in the kingdom of God.

Then The Word Of God (Jesus) will return unto His source (God) and be all in all. This means that The Word which is the visibility of God will return to His source and once more be united with His Spirit. What is left? A civilization of justified people with new celestial bodies living upon a new world and in a city New Jerusalem. This civilization will be sustained with the food and water of life forever with no more death or age. This is basically the doctrine of Christ Jesus.

Confusion comes when one reads rabbinic doctrine along with the doctrine of Jesus. These two doctrines are both side by side in the NT because the Apostles were born and raised with the rabbinic doctrine before Jesus introduced His doctrine. It then became a gradual learning process for all of the disciples of Christ Jesus before and even after His death. This is one of the reasons that we cannot play with verses without the entire thought being presented. This means that we need to be taught by scholars instead of most Sunday school teachers.

Another great important fact is that we do not have the original autographs (Letters) of the Disciples and Apostles. Actually we do not know whether the original autographs were in Greek or were in Hebrew and Aramaic. We have a lot to learn and probably will never learn all of the truth.



Laz:
Yes, the terrestrial/carnal body dies. No, the spirit of that body does NOT die - go back and re-read God's creation of Adam. God breathed (same word as "spirit") into the non-living body the Spirit of Life (one of the Seven Spirits of God), and body + breath became a living soul/person.

I like how you interpret the end of Death as the lack of anyone to die – very astute. I think the death of the universe thru destruction is an over-reach, however. I will stop at all things made new, for that is enough.

The rest of what you say about hell, sheol, and the LoF strikes me as some theo-illogical fantasy. I cannot even begin to deal with it. Our interpretations of the same Scriptures are very far apart. Agree to disagree?

Lastly, WHY do you make out my comments on wordplay in the worst possible light? I do like wordplay but that does not enter into my interpretation of Scripture. I’m going to throw it right back at you as something to think over: The misunderstanding of foundational prirciples is very dangerous and can lead to many different understandings and assumptions of the same incident.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

The rest of what you say about hell, sheol, and the LoF strikes me as some theo-illogical fantasy. I cannot even begin to deal with it. Our interpretations of the same Scriptures are very far apart. Agree to disagree? Lastly, WHY do you make out my comments on wordplay in the worst possible light? I do like wordplay but that does not enter into my interpretation of Scripture. I’m going to throw it right back at you as something to think over: The misunderstanding of foundational prirciples is very dangerous and can lead to many different understandings and assumptions of the same incident.

One thing about theology is that you could be right and i could be wrong. I appreciate that you are very sensible and a good debater.

Maybe I am not clear by the words "Word Play"-- Could you explain what you mean by " I do like wordplay but that does not enter into my interpretation of Scripture?" That caught my eye and thought then that perhaps we are not communicating.

The lake of fire theology and the New Jerusalem philosophy was first introduced to the Hebrews in the last two chapters of Isaiah 65 and 66. The Apostle John then confirms both the lake of fire and the New Jerusalem in his writing of The Revelation from Christ Jesus to the established churches of the Christian Jews. There are some who will only accept certain letters of the NT and disregard some others. Is that your premise?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

The rest of what you say about hell, sheol, and the LoF strikes me as some theo-illogical fantasy. I cannot even begin to deal with it. Our interpretations of the same Scriptures are very far apart. Agree to disagree? Lastly, WHY do you make out my comments on wordplay in the worst possible light? I do like wordplay but that does not enter into my interpretation of Scripture. I’m going to throw it right back at you as something to think over: The misunderstanding of foundational prirciples is very dangerous and can lead to many different understandings and assumptions of the same incident.

One thing about theology is that you could be right and i could be wrong. I appreciate that you are very sensible and a good debater.

Maybe I am not clear by the words "Word Play"-- Could you explain what you mean by " I do like wordplay but that does not enter into my interpretation of Scripture?" That caught my eye and thought then that perhaps we are not communicating.

The lake of fire theology and the New Jerusalem philosophy was first introduced to the Hebrews in the last two chapters of Isaiah 65 and 66. The Apostle John then confirms both the lake of fire and the New Jerusalem in his writing of The Revelation from Christ Jesus to the established churches of the Christian Jews. There are some who will only accept certain letters of the NT and disregard some others. Is that your premise?

originally posted by: Seede

One thing about theology is that you could be right and i could be wrong. I appreciate that you are very sensible and a good debater.

Maybe I am not clear by the words "Word Play"-- Could you explain what you mean by " I do like wordplay but that does not enter into my interpretation of Scripture?" That caught my eye and thought then that perhaps we are not communicating.

The lake of fire theology and the New Jerusalem philosophy was first introduced to the Hebrews in the last two chapters of Isaiah 65 and 66. The Apostle John then confirms both the lake of fire and the New Jerusalem in his writing of The Revelation from Christ Jesus to the established churches of the Christian Jews. There are some who will only accept certain letters of the NT and disregard some others. Is that your premise?

I'm sensible and a good debater? Why, thank you!

Don't worry about the wordplay thing, as it came up in comments to and from another poster.

I went back and skimmed the chapters you mentioned, and had read them recently. Over and over, repeated like Solomon's proverbs, is God speaking of the new and remade Kingdom/New Jerusalem. I see this happening, not thru a destructive fire, but through a refining fire, as God often describes Himself in terms of a refiner's fire and/or as fuller's soap. Refining and cleansing. There goes your wood, hay, and stubble - what's left is made white as snow.

The only book of the Bible I disregard is the book of Esther.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

I went back and skimmed the chapters you mentioned, and had read them recently. Over and over, repeated like Solomon's proverbs, is God speaking of the new and remade Kingdom/New Jerusalem. I see this happening, not thru a destructive fire, but through a refining fire, as God often describes Himself in terms of a refiner's fire and/or as fuller's soap. Refining and cleansing. There goes your wood, hay, and stubble - what's left is made white as snow.

I see a little more of what you are believing and correct me if I take this out of context. You believe that this Jerusalem which we have today is the same New Jerusalem that both Isaiah and Revelation references? If so then you are interpreting Isaiah as -- 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." as a renewal of terrestrial substance and not a new creation of celestial substance?
Have you considered that -- Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Have you considered the following in contextual understanding -- read in thought and not verse.
Psalms_75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

Isaiah_14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

Isaiah_24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

Isaiah_34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Naham_2:6 The gates of the rivers shall be opened, and the palace shall be dissolved.

By two or more it becomes established ---

2Corinthians_5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Peter_3:11,12
(11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
(12 )Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The Authors of Isaiah, Peter, Titus, Lucas, John and many more confirm the meaning of the words dissolved and created. It does not, in this case, mean renew or rearranging the terrestrial substance. Rabbinic Judaism does agree with you in that the concept of a celestial kingdom of God consisting of celestial food and waters of life with a celestial new body is not their belief. What I have postulated is the doctrine of Jesus. Can you show me the doctrine of Jesus that teaches differently than what I understand?

No, seede, on this I actually agree with you - in some age to come, all things will be made new, and possibly out of material quite different from that of our here-and-now universe. First the carnal, then the spiritual, you know. Our existence here and now will not even be remembered or brought to mind, that being one reason I consider our death and resurrection to going to sleep and waking up from a dream.

What is coming is the Real Reality.

This probably won't make any sense but your OP has got the wheels turning as it always does to me re Genesis 1:

So we are created in their image: male and female
Eve came out of Adam ;
Therefore the Spirit of God came out of God ; (father and Mother)
He commanded light and saw it was good... Separated the light from the darkness... Who claimed to be the light of the world? Good...Who is darkness? Not good obviously since light is good... Light and darkness were possibly the first birth? Spiritual Twins perhaps?

Clearly light and darkness aren't the light and darkness we know in our physical world since that came about day 4...

Good topic!