Satan's part in the Creation?

a reply to: Woodcarver

You study bible your whole life come to a conclusion .. Why not let others do the same

just because you read analyse believe that doesn't mean you are the problem of the world

originally posted by: scorpio84
If you clicked on this thinking I'm a Satanist, sorry to disappoint you. However, there is a question that's been on my mind for the last few days and I thought I'd pose it to the community - did the Devil have a part in the Creation story? Hear me out...

Gen 1:3 "Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness

Here we clearly see God giving an order and I posit that it was Lucifer ("the light bearer") who carried out this order.

Clearly, I'm putting the creation of the universe before the Fall.

If I'm off my rocker, tell me why.

Great question
I think darkness is used in two contexts, both physical and spiritual

Something worth considering at least

What is the definition of darkness here

originally posted by: Layaly
a reply to: Woodcarver

You study bible your whole life come to a conclusion .. Why not let others do the same

just because you read analyse believe that doesn't mean you are the problem of the world

So we are just going to ignore the fact that lucifer, the light bearer, is a mistranslation? (One of many)

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
Ok I'm not religious so I tend to have a metaphoric interpretation of the bible but here is my take on this topic. We could have a perfect world without death or pain or suffering if the "creator" chose to design reality like that. But instead we have a world which is a mix of "good" and "bad" things, life isn't perfect for anyone and all of us will have to go through hard times at one point or another in life. But would we truly be living if we didn't have to experience those "bad" things? Would we know the true value of happiness without also knowing sadness?

I think it's important to have a mix, everything in life is really about attaining the right balance, instead of believing it's one or the other. The whole concept of framing Satan/Lucifer as some evil villain is therefore totally ridiculous because God and Lucifer are clearly just two different sides of the same coin. Both are necessary and they both need each other to exist. I heard a good quote once, which was that opposition is necessary to grow as a person, because without having your ideas challenged you will never evolve in your understandings.

God created a world without death and pain for Adam and Eve. Eve and Adam's adultery against God brought this upon themselves and all humanity inherited through our genes. It was Satan who tempted them to do it with a lie. Satan is not required. Violence and lies are not part of the mix. They are the flies in the ointment. Your mix allows for violent sacrifice, rape, murder, exploitation, etc on the grounds that they balance the equilibrium. No they do not. They imbalance it.

Genesis 3:3;
"The Temptation and Fall of Man

3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”

13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:


“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.

15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

16 To the woman He said:


“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:


“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.

18
Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.

19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

The quote is long. It is the whole story just so we know where we are.

Also, God did not say "Satan, turn on the Light". He said "Let there be light". It came of His will. Nothing to do with ol' Goaty Horns.

Lucifer is not Satan. Lucifer is a latin word. It has no relationship to Hebrew:

"As an adjective, the Latin word lucifer meant "light-bringing" and was applied to the moon.[6] As a noun, it meant "morning star", or, in Roman mythology, its divine personification as "the fabled son of Aurora[45] and Cephalus, and father of Ceyx", or (in poetry) "day".[6] The second of the meanings attached to the word when used as a noun corresponds to the image in Greek mythology of Eos, the goddess of dawn, giving birth to the morning star Phosphorus.[45]

Isaiah 14:12 is not the only place where the Vulgate uses the word lucifer. It uses the same word four more times, in contexts where it clearly has no reference to a fallen angel: 2 Peter 1:19 (meaning "morning star"), Job 11:17 ("the light of the morning"), Job 38:32 ("the signs of the zodiac") and Psalms 110:3 ("the dawn").[46] To speak of the morning star, lucifer is not the only expression that the Vulgate uses: three times it uses stella matutina: Sirach 50:6 (referring to the actual morning star), and Revelation 2:28 (of uncertain reference) and 22:16 (referring to Jesus)."

en.wikipedia.org...

Lucifer only appeared as a name and term alongside Latin entrance to the Scripture. Satan was an original Hebrew/Canaanite concept. It is very well described here:

biblehub.com...

Lucifer is only used in some translations, too. King James translation left it in from the vulgate Latin and started the trend. Most translations translate this word, too. It is more a reference to the Monarchy of Babylon and their pagan practises of making the King as a God in Isaiah. The Latins were also similarly minded. Cesar was God. Even the Kings of Europe had supposed divine status.

Only KJV uses word Lucifer and none of the other major translations use it. It is used for Nebuchadnezzar by Isaiah. It is used in Revelation to describe Christ. It is a Latin term. It is used as a general metaphor.

In Revelation Christ is The Morning Star. He is the true Morning Star because He has the authority of God as King with divine status. It is a deliberate play on the Isaiah reference.

Here is your morning star and what Isaiah means:

en.wikipedia.org...(god)

Attar, Ashtar, (Assyro-Babylonian).

Now you can see why the confusion arises and some ATS members have said that Christ is Lucifer and Satan. They are misunderstanding completely the fact that it is a Latin word. Only the KJV causes this confusion.

a reply to: scorpio84

From my understanding Christians are the only religion that consider Satan evil. In many older (way older) religions Satan is a light bearer god that illuminates the darkness; He represents free thinking and revolution.

In other non- cannon christian writings as will as other ancient writing he is attributed will teaching humanity writing, math, agriculture, martial arts, astrology and many other sciences and arts. He broke god's autonomy and gave human's self awareness witch pissed off god. Satan is a title not a name it means like "tester" or "adversary" he works for god to test or tempt them. It is possible that there are several different Satan through out the course of the bible.

My theory is that the roles of god and satan are switched in the bible like satan is god and god is satan
My reasoning is:
1) God sounds like a tyrant king and if there was a rebellion and satan lost. Winner's write history and of course he would paint the loser as a bad guy.
2) God sounds like the bad guy if you read the story. Satan gave us pretty much everything we have now. Why was god so pissed that he made us smarter and self aware. Idk about you but i think those are good things. God sounds like he wanted us to be his little slave/pet.

that my take on it hope it helps you.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

So we are just going to ignore the fact that lucifer, the light bearer, is a mistranslation? (One of many)

You call bible fiction yet you ask if we ignore the fact that .. Just a pun sorry

Accepting religion is much faster road to peace then trying to cleanse the world of it (that's just as bad)

My answer:

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." [yup, God made it all]

John 1:3 "All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made." [no one else had a hand in it]

Lucifer/Satan is a minor character in the Biblical narrative.

Is it a coincidence that live is evil spelt backwards? There truly is nothing new under the sun, I think this is what we must ponder.

originally posted by: Layaly
originally posted by: Woodcarver

So we are just going to ignore the fact that lucifer, the light bearer, is a mistranslation? (One of many)

You call bible fiction yet you ask if we ignore the fact that .. Just a pun sorry

Accepting religion is much faster road to peace then trying to cleanse the world of it (that's just as bad)

Only if you subscribe to the "ignorance is bliss" idea. There have been many posters in this thread who have pointed out the flaws with this OP. As well as the bible in it's entirety. If religion brings peace, why do we live in a world full of conflict?

a reply to: Woodcarver

It's not ignorance it is respect for what you think

We have religional issues because of church lobbyist not because of believe systems..
Making people Defending a point of interest is how you can control them ..
funny enough as you can see even here it doesn't end

Let's say there is you me and one other
If you remain in this argument it's 1:2
if I pull you from this is 2:1

a reply to: Gothmog

I think I can explain the plural. It is the royal "we"

a reply to: Learningman

Interesting reply

changed the nature of the passage from a fallen king and the effect on the area, to a new story about a fallen angel.

I never did learn Hebrew/ do a major textual analysis of the OT - but I did read some of the NT in its original Koine and noticed this same thing - that mundane things are given a divine translation. Some words that come to mind:

ekklesia = gathering/group of people; translated as 'church'
angelos = a messenger; translated as 'angel'
kyrios= lord (as in master of a house); translated as 'Lord' (in a divine sense)


Back to the OP...

Just b/c Lucifer is mentioned only once doesn't mean much. After all, it's plausible the author would have just omitted his name, right? As for Helel ben Shahar...I find it exceedingly interesting that he takes his mother's name.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: scorpio84

God divided the light from the darkness

god divided (or seperated) lucifer (the light) from the darkness, so if there's no darkness in Lucifer why does it have such a bad image? Well thought out OP.

Careful - lucifer isn't the light - he's the light bearer. Still, what does that verse mean. Light is always separate from darkness, is it not? Can something be light and dark at the same time? Is this the Biblical explanation for shadows? Sorry, more questions than answers - happens with Bible study.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: scorpio84

Congratulations!!!! You are the 1 billionth person to interpret the bible. Make sure you stay on the line to collect your prize.

You are off your rocker because you are taking ancient mythology as if it were actually meant to be descriptive of reality. It is as simple as that. Religion is whats wrong with the world. Peoples personal revelations and interpretations of what the bible is "trying" to say, or what this or that quote "really" means, is never ending. It's just a work of fiction like war of the worlds. Some people fell for that story too. Humans fall for stories all the time.

Do you have proof of anything you said ? Or is it just your "interpretation" ? I am betting the latter.If you cant improve on the silence.....

Proof that the bible is mythology? Of course i have proof. The stories in the bible are full of talking animals and people doing impossible acts. Is that not proof enough? Do you really believe that thousands of people rose from their graves? Of course not, because it's mythology.

You are probably aware that the Bible has a two-fold purpose - to record history and to teach about God/morality. The thing you may not be aware of is that the Bible is supposed to be understood allegorically. If you are constantly looking at it from a literalist perspective, you are not interpreting things correctly. Of course it's utter rubbish is interpreted literally - even the first Jews would have told you that. So, before applying your expert criticism, try reading the text in the way it is meant.

a reply to: Hecate666

It was Revelation that turned me into a complete Satan supporter. All I read was how god suppressed everything that makes us human, such as music, arts, trading etc, whilst Satan tried desperately to free these oppressed people and bring knowledge.

To understand why this makes God good and Satan not good, you have to look at it from the perspective of there being a higher plane of existence - another reality/state of being whereupon we realize this existence has been an illusion all along. Then it becomes Satan entices us to remain in the illusion, while God wants to free us from it.

Therefore speculations as to the content of the bible and Satan or whatever, can only be made logically from a philosophical angle and discussed as actual facts.

Of course. I just thought it'd give an interesting spin to the book if Satan had a hand in the Creation.

a reply to: Woodcarver

his OP was flawed from the start. Those here who are biblical scholars, saw this from the start as was pointed out in learning man's post above.

Where's the flaw? I used the term "Lucifer" which appears in Isaiah - so what? Here's the question another way:
Did the leader of the fallen angels, referred to as Lucifer in Isaiah and known for being God's right hand angel before the Fall, have a role in creation in that he carried out the order of "let there be light?" Your problem is you approach this literally.

For example, can you answer:
How many horns does a unicorn have?

According to the way you approached my question, your reply would be something like "unicorns don't exist so it's impossible to count to the number of horns on something that doesn't exist," whereas most people would just say "one."

Also, since you seem unaware that the Bible is largely meant to be read allegorically, I doubt you include yourself as a "Bible scholar." Sorry, but just reading the Bible doesn't make you an expert on it.

OP's such as this are the reason why people do not understand what the bible is.

It's a book of allegory - imagine if the allegory was that humans were created by a good force prone to evil? Think of it...people are born good and only become bad later.

You might as well ask " why does Godzilla hate Japanese people?"

He doesn't hate them. He attacks them b/c that is what monsters do.

originally posted by: CosmicSmack
From my understanding Christians are the only religion that consider Satan evil.

If this is in fact true, I'd say that gives us one huge clue as to who is behind all of those religions.

Many people claim that all religions are essentially the same, or that they all lead to God.

This cannot be true because they all contradict each other.

There can only be ONE "True Religion".

If Christianity is true, then all other religions are wrong.

There are ONLY two religious systems in the world.

Satan controls one, the other belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Satan's most effective method of seducing men and women to yield to his control over them is via a religious system. Source

If two beliefs directly contradict each other, both of them cannot be true, no matter how "tolerant" we become. This means it is false to say that every religion is true, or that every religion leads to God. When people make such claims they show that they have not taken the time to study the world's religions, because a brief reading of the sacred texts of only a handful of religions quickly reveals contradictions on the most fundamental levels.

They could all be false, but they can't all be true. Are any of them true? This is the most important question anyone can ask. Recognize religious contradictions. Embrace them. Test them. Seek the truth.

Contradict: They Can't All Be True

a reply to: Revolution9

You know, you could have just provided the verses without actually quoting it.

Also, God did not say "Satan, turn on the Light". He said "Let there be light". It came of His will. Nothing to do with ol' Goaty Horns.

Forgetting names such as Satan/Lucifer/Devil, etc. for a moment, what about the "let there be light" part. Does that not look like a command to you. Does anyone know how to read the original Hebrew and give a grammatical analysis thereof?

a reply to: Murgatroid

And behold, another post by you with the bold claim 'me religious views correct, you religious views work of satan'.

Quite the motif.

Also, the fact that your canned responses with accompanying wall of so called sources are lately either 404d or none-existant really does not look good.