Burn Cheap CPU's at Home Using BluRay Burning Technology. TWO DOLLARS for 35 CPU's!

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: peskyhumans
a reply to: Bedlam

But I don't see how using Blurays instead of plastic film would improve the functionality at all.

It wouldn't - the OP's conjecture has more holes than a Swiss cheese. I'm talking about an FPGA, not a blu-ray.

Or for your post where you cited the plastic film device, I was pretty explicit in stating that it was a gimmick, and was fabricated using standard techniques.

You're preaching to the choir.

---

Hmmm...NOPE...not conjecture....spinning BluRay beam focusing and
burning technology has actually been used to burn (i.e. pop and keep
junction connections) in plastic substrates for years...it was designed
for completing automated computational circuitry design tests where
software more advanced than a human-assisted Silicon Compiler
completely lays out a design (i.e. full tape out), automatically
calculated thermal and electrical loading on a wide variey of
substrates and actually creates a manufacturability diagram
to optimize costs and final performance.

FPGA is expensive! Polycarbonate is CHEAP!

For circuit design testing and verification purposes
and the creation of cheap supercomputers it works GREAT!

I used the BluRay disc example because you ACTUUALY CAN CREATE
CPU/GPU/DSP designs and burn them onto a disc the same size as
BluRay discs using the SAME beam focusing and spinning burn system
as today's DVD's and BluRay burning hardware.

Why re-invent the wheel when you can create a stackable circuit
using CHEAP (did I say CHEAP?) technology such that multiple
CPU/GPU/DSP designs CAN be printed onto a BluRay-sized disc
and then USED as part of a massively parallel processing system
but only costing a few hundred dollars!

a reply to: Bedlam

"....Don't confuse the circuitry with the devices. It's not going to be possible
to print semiconductors on a tabletop with ANY substrate any time soon. ..."

...uhmmm....I was just at UBC (University of British Columbia) a few days ago
and I saw EXACTLY THAT....burned circuits on plastic substrates DONE ON
A DESKTOP !!!!!!!!!!

and NOT using an FPGA chip...although I must admit the UBC people
WERE using that ridiculously expensive Mentor Graphics VHDL software
and they were using a traditional (but portable) beam etching
system that slowly burned the pathways into the substrate
rather than popping/keeping connections between pre-fabbed
junction cells.

---

Is portable desktop integrated circuit making possible? YES!

Is it costly? If you use Beam etching..then YES it's costly.

Can you pop/keep pathways between P-N junctions
using a laser? YES! AND it's cheap to do.

Is a Blu Ray disc the best form factor? NO!
But is ONE of the cheapest because of
all the Research and Development on
beam forming and multi-layer focusing
done in the last 10 years!

My suggestion is to use pre-fabbed
rectangular or square millimetre-thick
SLICES of layered plastic substrate at
pre-cut and common sizing and using
a rotating mirror to deflect a focusing
and burning beam on the appropriate
P-N junction cell using a technique
similar to how laser printers work
in using a time-based pulse against
a rotating mirror to break or keep
pre-fabbed junction connections!

That's what I WOULD DO ....
but then again our engineers don't
want to listen to me...I'm just the
Silicon Compiler writer.....and not
the decades-long MSCEE....

a reply to: StargateSG7

COugh.. holodecks... cough cough.

Haacck hacckkkk cough cough X box upgrade...

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: StargateSG7

COugh.. holodecks... cough cough.

Haacck hacckkkk cough cough X box upgrade...

---

Think Dune and "Spice" instead .... BIGGER MARKET !!!!!

cough cough BIG hooooonk to Olanta SC JW

OMG -- I cannot believe I've been out
of the "Company Business" sooooo long
that it took me more than ten minutes....

O boy... that is cheap multicore processor you could use, and you know what, to get rid of your cellular bill, you could use 2 cans connected with wire that work on 20Hz-20KHz, depending how laud and high peach is your voice...

It was actually funny to read all that 'laser BR/DVD' mumble...

Of curse, if it was possible to reproduce partial calculations, we would see ' look what I got, my personal computer can outperform IBM's super computer...

originally posted by: SuperFrog
O boy... that is cheap multicore processor you could use, and you know what, to get rid of your cellular bill, you could use 2 cans connected with wire that work on 20Hz-20KHz, depending how laud and high peach is your voice...

It was actually funny to read all that 'laser BR/DVD' mumble...

Of curse, if it was possible to reproduce partial calculations, we would see ' look what I got, my personal computer can outperform IBM's super computer...

---

If you look above I give authoritative sources for
producing electronic circuits on plastic substrates.

University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, Illinois,
UCLA, The United States Air Force Research Directorate.
I would say THOSE are pretty AUTHORITATIVE, PEER-REVIEWED SOURCES!

The BluRay angle is something Sony, Philips and Toshiba have pioneered
and THEY TOO are using BluRay technology to BURN pre-fabbed circuits
since ALL THREE were the original INVENTORS of much of the BluRay
beam forming and focusing technologies used in the system.
Hmmm...ALL THREE COMPANIES are bigger than MANY COUNTRIES!

So YUP I would say they are ALSO authoritative sources!

AND to get the GIGAHERTZ SPEEDS on plastic circuits,
I suggest that these patents will be VERY HELPFUL
which allow the formation of ULTRA high speed signals
using light (i.e. opto-electronics on plastic circuits)!

----

Coupling electromagnetic wave through microcircuit
US 7359589 B2

www.google.com...

----

Microcircuit using electromagnetic wave routing
US 7450794 B2
www.google.ca...

---

For ON-THE-FLY printing using Ink Jet-like technology
may I suggest you read this article:

Ink-Jet Printed Nanoparticle
Microelectromechanical Systems
by
Sawyer B. Fuller, Eric J. Wilhelm, and Joseph M. Jacobson

"....Abstract—We report a method to additively build three
dimensional (3-D) microelectromechanical systems (MEMS) and
electrical circuitry by ink-jet printing nanoparticle metal colloids.
Fabricating metallic structures from nanoparticles avoids the
extreme processing conditions required for standard lithographic
fabrication and molten-metal-droplet deposition. Nanoparticles
typically measure 1 to 100 nm in diameter and can be sintered
at plastic-compatible temperatures as low as 300 C to form
material nearly indistinguishable from the bulk material. ..."

With financial and technical support from:
Defense Advanced Research Project Agency Contract
DABT63-99-C-0033 and by the Media Laboratory’s
Things That Think (TTT) Consortium.
----

The above 2002 article REALLY SHOWS that we can actually
have desktop micro-circuit printing machines real soon now!

So I beg to differ when people say we won't have desktop
microcircuit printing anytime soon.....people ARE working
on it NOW!

I do also suggest reading THIS BLOG to see where the
future lies in 2D-XY Flat Planar and 3D-XYZ Cubic circuitry
lies in term of the LATEST manufacturing technologies.

Applied Materials Blog:
blog.appliedmaterials.com...

originally posted by: StargateSG7
a reply to: Bedlam

"....Don't confuse the circuitry with the devices. It's not going to be possible
to print semiconductors on a tabletop with ANY substrate any time soon. ..."

...uhmmm....I was just at UBC (University of British Columbia) a few days ago
and I saw EXACTLY THAT....burned circuits on plastic substrates DONE ON
A DESKTOP !!!!!!!!!!

Aaaand, again, you're totally confused.

The interconnecting circuitry is not the device. You're not making semiconductors that way, it's more like a laser trimmed PCB.

But if you toss a lot of non-sequitur links and use !!!!!! a lot it sounds really cool.

I'm quite familiar with EE...i DO write silicon compilers for a living right now.....

I am not sure what your point is...I thought
I already made it clear that the multi-layer
Plastic Substrates are already etched and
Pre-doped At the factory...all the bluray is
doing is breaking fuses between gate arrays
Very much like an FPGA....ergo a home burner
Is just popping or keeping connections between
Pre-Embedded or software-set circuits....adders,
multipliers, XOR, OR, NOT, AND Comparitive And Bitwise logic all set from a VHDL script.

My Xilinx board already has the ARM core
Builtin and custom logic is used for my dsp
Functions...and as with this FPGA example
Multilayer plastic substrates will contain the
Exact same type of system where factory embedded soft-cores (I.e. ARM or CISC) is
surrounded by user-defined Logic burned-in afterwards at home.

If we want TRUE hard-layered CPU/GPU/DSP
Where dopants are diffused into a substrate and layered or etched by beam-based technology
then only the 3D-XYZ inkjet-like Technologies
that deposit nanoparticles and dopants using
multihead 3D printing techniques and forming layers and scribelines using electron beam or
extreme ultraviolet light will work!
SEE references in previous posts on such
Techniques.

YOU CAN etch a sub-micron scale circuit at home!

Saw the demo last week at a local university (UBC)
creating basically a 6502 8 bit chip in just a
Few hours using DESKTOP TECHNOLOGY !!!
That was a hard layering and etching with
on-the-fly diffusion of dopants into and deposition
of conductor onto plastic substrate layers!

The demo even had prefab cartridges of boron,
phosphorpus, Antimony, arsenic and sulphur
to be added as measured dopants at
nano-scale sizes and a portable chemical
wash/cleaning system for the beam-based
Etching process.

When asked the scalability of such tech, I was informed the demonstration was capable of
90nm subject to the electron beam gun used
And the substrate's mechanical properties.

EB Guns are capable of scribelines down to 7 nm.
Dopants are vaporized using a beam-based epitaxy process for introduction into the substrate.

I think this the type of desktop process YOU are
Emvisioning which is extremely flexible in producing microcircuits of ANY kind!

The BluRay process I was describing is more
Like the FPGA process...connecting or breaking
Apart connections between factory built-in logic.
Using plastic substrate simply reduces the cost
By 40-fold making FAST plastic general purpose
circuits burned at home a viable option for
Creating ONE-OFF cpu/gpu/dsp designs.

originally posted by: StargateSG7
I'm quite familiar with EE...i DO write silicon compilers for a living right now.....

I am not sure what your point is...I thought
I already made it clear that the multi-layer
Plastic Substrates are already etched and
Pre-doped At the factory...all the bluray is
doing is breaking fuses between gate arrays
Very much like an FPGA....ergo a home burner
Is just popping or keeping connections between
Pre-Embedded or software-set circuits....adders,
multipliers, XOR, OR, NOT, AND Comparitive And Bitwise logic all set from a VHDL script.

In which case you're still going to have to pay for all the logic. The plastic can't really be pre-doped - it's not a semiconductor, and doping it won't do diddly. Are you just embedding a lot of logic in? If so, it'll be no cheaper than a really huge FPGA. And all the long, long, long conductors you'll get between the small chips are going to make your interconnect times godawfully slow. Not to mention an unbelievably atrocious ground bounce problem with a lot of scattered logic parts and no decoupling.

My Xilinx board already has the ARM core
Builtin and custom logic is used for my dsp
Functions...and as with this FPGA example
Multilayer plastic substrates will contain the
Exact same type of system where factory embedded soft-cores (I.e. ARM or CISC) is
surrounded by user-defined Logic burned-in afterwards at home.

In which case each disc is going to bankrupt you as it's going to have about an entire wafer worth of crap stuck in there.

You pay for FPGAs by the area (to an extent) so I can't imagine how you're coming up with this thing going to be cheap.

If we want TRUE hard-layered CPU/GPU/DSP
Where dopants are diffused into a substrate and layered or etched by beam-based technology
then only the 3D-XYZ inkjet-like Technologies
that deposit nanoparticles and dopants using
multihead 3D printing techniques and forming layers and scribelines using electron beam or
extreme ultraviolet light will work!

Not on polycarbonate it won't. The dopants aren't the issue. It's the fact that the polycarbonate ain't a semiconductor. You can dope until you die, it won't be a device. It's a chunk of plastic.

OFCOL

Screw money, screw economy, screw budgets......

IS it possible or not...?!?
Fess up all you nonbelivers, is this possible...
I dont care if id pay 2$ or maybe even 20 for
a monstercpu/gpu/dsp WHATEVER... Aslong
as its WAAAYYYYYYYYY faster and better than
the current topnotch ones on sale for like 500$

a reply to: Miccey

If you're paying $500 you're doing it wrong.

MSRP on an unlocked quad core skylake is $313 and I can pickup a hexacore intel for the same price locally. Only xeon costs more, and you get more cores and registered memory for it. No power user needs it, it's server territory.

originally posted by: Miccey

IS it possible or not...?!?

No. You can't dope polycarbonate disks and make GPUs out of them. That's one of the many Swisscheesian holes in the idea.

originally posted by: StargateSG7

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: StargateSG7

COugh.. holodecks... cough cough.

Haacck hacckkkk cough cough X box upgrade...

---

Think Dune and "Spice" instead .... BIGGER MARKET !!!!!

cough cough BIG hooooonk to Olanta SC JW

OMG -- I cannot believe I've been out
of the "Company Business" sooooo long
that it took me more than ten minutes....

Ahhh good going zere. so i imasgine we can in th e future fit a desktop pc in a x box case right? and maybe make it a 2 in 1 lol. but im just thinking small right now. always time to go bigger later.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Miccey

IS it possible or not...?!?

No. You can't dope polycarbonate disks and make GPUs out of them. That's one of the many Swisscheesian holes in the idea.

---

For polycarbonate specifically, directly dopant diffusion
into the substrate is DIFFICULT but not as impossible as
Bedlam has tried to indicate.

SO YES YOU ACTUALLY CAN DIRECTLY DOPE THERMOPLASTIC (i.e.polycarbonate)
discs and make a CPU/GPU/DSP out of them...they just have to do it
at the factory and then allow us to break the fuses between logic gates
using a beam of light. (i.e. blue laser) in a desktop burning system.

What I think Bedlam wants to illustrate is the difference between
building a CPU chip with a 3D-printer from the GROUND-UP versus
keeping or burning away bits and pieces of circuit components
pre-built into slices of plastic made at a factory.

While we can Agree-to-Disagree, Bedlam is saying that you CANNOT
directly infuse a thermoplastic (i.e. hard plexiglas-like polymer)
or organic polymer (i.e. soft plastic) with dopants to create
a semiconductive material.

I do must admit that hard plastic is MUCH HARDER TO INFUSE
with dopants than organic (soft) polymers but it is
NOT AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK to do so!

I AM SAYING YOU CAN and HERE ARE THE PEER REVIEWED
ARTICLES THAT SAY THAT BOTH Organic and Thermoplastic
CAN BE used to directly create an electronic circuit
and not just SLOW ONE but HIGH-SPEED ELECTRONICS TOO!

This 1985 article says the following:

The Concept of `Doping' of Conducting Polymers: The Role of Reduction Potentials [and Discussion]
A. G. MacDiarmid, R. J. Mammone, R. B. Kaner, S. J. Porter, R. Pethig, A. J. Heeger, D. R. Rosseinsky
Published 30 May 1985.DOI: 10.1098/rsta.1985.0004

"....The conductivity of certain organic polymers
can be raised to metallic levels by chemical or
electrochemical `p-doping' (oxidation), or
`n-doping' (reduction). ..."

rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org...

I think that article REALLY REFUTES your supposition right there...!!!!

----

Example of use of polycarbonate as a BASE substrate
for layering circuits on top of said base layer.

SEMICONDUCTOR ELEMENT, METHOD FOR PRODUCING SAME AND ALIPHATIC POLYCARBONATE

(i.e. creating thin-film semiconductors that use
polycarbonate as the in-between layering or as the
base substrate with no dopant diffusion into the
polycarbonate -- using the polycarbonate as
just a backboard stability material)

Pub. No.:
WO/2015/093455
International Application No.:
PCT/JP2014/083187

Publication Date: 25.06.2015
International Filing Date: 16.12.2014
IPC: H01L 21/336 (2006.01), C08G 64/02 (2006.01),
H01L 21/28 (2006.01), H01L 29/786 (2006.01)

Applicants: NATIONAL UNIVERSITY CORPORATION JAPAN ADVANCED INSTITUTE OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY

SUMITOMO SEIKA CHEMICALS CO., LTD. [JP/JP]; 346-1, Miyanishi, Harima-cho, Kako-gun, Hyogo 6750145 (JP)

Inventors: INOUE, Satoshi; (JP).
SHIMODA, Tatsuya; (JP).
FUJIMOTO, Nobutaka; (JP).
NISHIOKA, Kiyoshi; (JP).
KARASHIMA, Shuichi; (JP)

patentscope.wipo.int...

---

1962 Article on the diffusion of dopants INTO polymers
which can include Lexan, Polycarbonate and other plastics.

This particular article mention changing the PROPERTIES
of a polymer (plastic) substrate by infusing gasses
usually used for improving the substrate's optical
properties BUT such infusion techniques ARE NOW being
used to introduce dopants for electronic circuit
manufacturing purposes.

Diffusion in polymers: Optical techniques
Authors

First published: April 1962
DOI: 10.1002/pol.1962.1205816632


onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

---

To make photovoltaic cells AND organic displays on polymer substrates
this patent is one of the FIRST ONES I'VE SEEN that outline such a
process for making a SEMICONDUCTIVE area on a polymer (plastic)
substrate in a reasonably non-complex manner:

Charge-transport structures
US 6555840 B1

Apr 29, 2003

Abstract

A charge-transport structure, e g an opto-electronic structure such
an electroluminescent device is manufactured by forming a uniform
first charge-transport (eg electron-transport) polymer layer on
a substrate. Low molar mass dyes in a solvent are ink-jet printed
onto the exposed surface of the first layer to form a multicolor
pattern, and the dyes are allowed to diffuse into the layer to
form charge-recombination/emitter regions within the layer.

Excess dyes are washed away from the surface and then a uniform
second charge-transport (eg hole-transport) polymer layer is
formed on the resultant smooth surface of the first layer
over the tops of the regions. Finally, electrodes are
deposited on the top of the second layer in registration
with the regions. Photovoltaic structures and organic
transistors are also disclosed.

PLEASE DO NOTE THE DATE (2003) and the term "Organic Transistor"
on the last line of the patent abstract. This is good for making
super-cheap wearable and very flexible electronics.

---

This book is a REAL KICKER in that we can increase areal or 3D cubic
density of storage cells on thermoplastic (i.e. polycarbonate-like)
using common DVD/BluRay technologies.

See starting Page 334 and chapter 20

Photo-Induced Metastability in Amorphous Semiconductors

edited by Alexander V. Kolobov

This could allow SEMICONDUCTORS to be embedded into
polycarbonate layers using INEXPENSIVE TECHNIQUES.

===========

That is the key term INEXPENSIVE !!!!!

at $200+ for an Intel i7, bulk production of
thermoplastic substrates and actual DOPING thereof
(i.e. the introduction of certain elements via diffusion
to change a polymer's electrical conduction properties)
allows the CHEAP production of electronic circuits.

----

Semiconductor Nanomaterials for Flexible Technologies:
From Photovoltaics to Electronics to Sensors and Energy Storage
edited by Yugang Sun, John A. Rogers

This is another book that will give you a background
on embedding electronic circuitry INTO or ONTO both
non-thermoplastic (soft) AND true thermoplastic (hard)
polymer substrates.

And to re-iterate, Bedlam is saying you cannot directly turn polycarbonate
into a conductor or semiconductor via Doping (i.e. the infusion of Boron,
Phosphorus, Antimony, Arsenic and/or Sulphur to change the electrical
properties of the base substrate)

...

I AM SAYING YES YOU CAN !!!!

ANd they have been doing it since at least 1997 and even earlier!


Conductive blends of thermally dodecylbenzene sulfonic
acid-doped polyaniline with **** thermoplastic polymers ******

M. Zilberman1,
G. I. Titelman1,
A. Siegmann1,*,
Y. Haba2,
M. Narkis2 and
D. Alperstein3

Journal of Applied Polymer Science

Volume 66, Issue 2, pages 243–253, 10 October 1997

Article first published online: 7 DEC 1998

DOI: 10.1002/(SICI)1097-4628(19971010)

Keywords:

polyaniline;
thermoplastic polymers;
blend;
conductivity

Abstract

In the present study, a conductive polyaniline-dodecyl
benzene sulfonic acid (PANI-DBSA) complex, prepared
by a thermal doping process, and its blends with
thermoplastic polymers, prepared by melt processing,
were investigated. PANI-DBSA characterization included
conductivity measurements, morphology, crystallography,
and thermal behavior. The blends' investigation focused
on the morphology and the interaction between the
components and on the resulting electrical conductivity.
The level of interaction between the PANI and the matrix
polymer determines the blend morphology and, thus, its
electrical conductivity. Similar solubility parameters of
the two polymeric components are necessary for a
high level of PANI dispersion within the matrix
polymer and, thus, enable the formation of
conducting paths at low PANI content.

The morphology of these blends is described
by a two-structure hierarchy: (a) a primary structure,
composed of small dispersed polyaniline particles,
and (b) a short-range fine fibrillar structure,
interconnecting the dispersed particles.

(C) 1997 John Wiley & Sons, Inc. J Appl Polym Sci 66: 243–253, 1997

a reply to: StargateSG7

You do realize that Some here are prolly not fully understanding what you are talking about and since they are not present where you are and seeing what you are seeing.. assuming you are for a lack of a better term shooting smoke up their butts.

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: StargateSG7

You do realize that Some here are prolly not fully understanding what you are talking about and since they are not present where you are and seeing what you are seeing.. assuming you are for a lack of a better term shooting smoke up their butts.

---

Bedlam understands what I am talking about. If Bedlam is the Bedlam
I think he is, then if I am not mistaken, he was with the U.S. Naval
Research Laboratory and I think he even did research or consulting
for the Technical Joint Cross Service Group (TJCSG), DOE, JPL,
and/or NASA a few years back.

It's just we disagree as to whether or not a plastic
can be made to be a semiconductor like silicon can.

There is clear evidence that the SAME processes
used for making Intel i7 CPU's can be used in an
INEXPENSIVE MANNER using plastic.

originally posted by: StargateSG7
For polycarbonate specifically, directly dopant diffusion
into the substrate is DIFFICULT but not as impossible as
Bedlam has tried to indicate.

Dopants are for semiconductors. They're not magical, mystical things that create pn junctions whereever you spray them. Dopants modify semiconducting material. Which polycarbonate is not. It doesn't matter if it diffuses. It doesn't turn polycarbonate into a magical plastic transistor or diode. The right dopant CAN change neutral silicon into p type silicon. But it won't do much for polycarbonate.

SO YES YOU ACTUALLY CAN DIRECTLY DOPE THERMOPLASTIC (i.e.polycarbonate)
discs and make a CPU/GPU/DSP out of them...they just have to do it
at the factory and then allow us to break the fuses between logic gates
using a beam of light. (i.e. blue laser) in a desktop burning system.

Wrong. No, you can't. Thus your entire idea is down the tubes.

While we can Agree-to-Disagree, Bedlam is saying that you CANNOT
directly infuse a thermoplastic (i.e. hard plexiglas-like polymer)
or organic polymer (i.e. soft plastic) with dopants to create
a semiconductive material.

When you understand why you can only get something by doping a semiconductor, you'll realize why your idea won't work. Are there a few organic semiconductors? Sure! There are a few. The polyvinylenes, ORMECON and the polyacetylenes are three of them. But you can't pick up any non-conductor you want, hose it with a few squirts of boron, and create a p-type plastic.

The Concept of `Doping' of Conducting Polymers: The Role of Reduction Potentials [and Discussion]
A. G. MacDiarmid, R. J. Mammone, R. B. Kaner, S. J. Porter, R. Pethig, A. J. Heeger, D. R. Rosseinsky
Published 30 May 1985.DOI: 10.1098/rsta.1985.0004

Poly-acetylene.

SEMICONDUCTOR ELEMENT, METHOD FOR PRODUCING SAME AND ALIPHATIC POLYCARBONATE

Doesn't apply. You put it in for filler. Has nothing to do with making semiconductors out of polycarbonate.

1962 Article on the diffusion of dopants INTO polymers
which can include Lexan, Polycarbonate and other plastics.

Well, that's a lie, isn't it? Got nothing to do with dopants. They're talking about gas diffusion through polycarbonate. Like oxygen.

To make photovoltaic cells AND organic displays on polymer substrates
this patent is one of the FIRST ONES I'VE SEEN that outline such a
process for making a SEMICONDUCTIVE area on a polymer (plastic)

PLEASE DO NOTE THE DATE (2003) and the term "Organic Transistor"
on the last line of the patent abstract. This is good for making
super-cheap wearable and very flexible electronics.

Please DO note that you're cherrypicking organic semiconductors, in this case a polyvinylidine, to use as an example. Yes, there are a few types of organic semiconductors which can be doped. Polycarbonate is not one of them.

Photo-Induced Metastability in Amorphous Semiconductors

This one's sort of like that flex circuit upthread where they deposit silicon onto plastic then dope the amorphous silicon. Again, the plastic's a sort of neutral substrate, not the device, which you are claiming. And the performance is lousy.

This is another book that will give you a background
on embedding electronic circuitry INTO or ONTO both
non-thermoplastic (soft) AND true thermoplastic (hard)
polymer substrates.

And it's another non-sequitur, as it doesn't bear on your claim. You do this a lot. Post a wall of non-sequiturs so people won't look at it. You're doing keyword searches and then...modifying...what they say in your little precis thinking no one will follow. Sorry. It's a bit disingenuous, isn't it?

Tell you what. Come up with one or two really telling examples of someone doping a plastic that's not a polyvinylidene, a polyacetylene or a polyaniline or other specialty semiconducting polymer and making a transistor or diode out of it, directly.

Not a wall of non-sequitur, not a wall of keyword matches. The one or two you think are the best examples. Of someone making pn junctions out of polycarbonate. Not another polymer that's a semiconductor then handwaving and proclaiming that proves polycarbonate is a transistor.

Dopants. Dope. Semiconductive. Material. Period.

I'll wait.

a reply to: Bedlam

I will do better than a keyword search...I will
Ask our MSCEE's if polycarbonate IS a semiconductor or can be made into one.

I'm just a lowly programmer with a certain
Level of experience...i will leave it to the
Chip Design guys as to their answer.....

What i am specifically saying is that the
Articles I have cited give credence to my claim
that BOTH soft plastics and hard thermoplastics
Such as Polycarbonate can become transistors
And not just be used as a "backboard" for
A silicon-based conductive or semiconductive
Structure.

And since I have access to some absolutely
Incredible MSCEE talent, I will see what they
Say and will cite their specific sources to back
My claim. If ALL or parts of my claim is found
to have no such validity I am quite sure they
Will tell me the specific reasons why which
I will then state in my next few posts.

I will know in the next day or so what their
Position is regarding Polycarbonate specifically
Becoming a transistor!

a reply to: StargateSG7

After an amazingly quick late night
reply from one of the engineers,
Polycarbonate is considered unable
To perform as a transistor material due
To two issues:

1) the "electron states are all filled" with
No holes allowing electrons to hop along
The thermoplastic material structure.
Using an analogy, all the inbetween spaces
Of a pile of bricks Are filled with fine sand and
small rocks thus the "water" (i.e. electrons)
Cannot be dumped through the now filled gaps.

2) Polycarbonate has a highly imperfect
crystalline structure at normal room temperatures
Which blocks easy conduction and makes electron
Transfer nearly impossible without raising the
Temperature of the polycarbonate to very
high levels.

Polycarbonate is considered only suitable for
holding other semiconductor materials such as Germanium or Silicon in place as a supportive
Structure. It is physically nearly impossible
To make it conductive without raising its
temperature to excessive levels.

---

One method to make it a conductor is to embed
An array of nanowires that in themselves are conductors, semiconductors or insulators.
The polycarbonate is then used as a 3D
Mechanical supporting structure and not
As a conductive medium.

----

WELL WELL it looks like Bedlam is correct
And the BASE REASON WHY polycarbonate
Cannot BE a transistor is that it has NO HOLES
Which can be kept filled or kept open enough
To control the movement of electrons in a
Meaningful manner. Polycarbonate can
however be used as the bucket or box
Which keeps a silicon-based transistor
In place. I.e. PC is the roadbed which
Simply supports the "real" transistor.

WELL WELL WELL!!! This means that
TheBlue ray disc idea still holds since
Polycarbonate is just the place holder
For prefabbed transistors and the circuits
Based on them.

YA LEARN SOMETHING NEW EVERY DAY !!!!