"Whoever discovers the interpretations of these sayings will not taste death"

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Consider that idea eh...

Jesus wasn't all for everything in the OT... its quite possible the writers of the NT left things out so they would line up with said Old books according to their ideas

The later church ended up destroying the gnostic texts and murdering those who disagreed with them because they were powerful writings and had an influence over those who could understand them

Makes ya think

Well, when you compare OT prophecy with Jesus' ministry, parables, and His prophecies, its all there. There is a direct parallel between Jesus and OT...

However, when you look at portions of the OT Law compared to Jesus' Law, much of the OT laws are a satire of the pagan ritual systems. The OT laws are broken down into three categories: the Moral Codex (10 Commandments), the Civil Codex (for daily operation of society), and the Ritual Codex.

While the Ritual Codex is designed to emphasize propitiation and atonement via sacrifice, it did so in such a way that it was a satire of the pagan rituals. This is what the Pharisees and Sadducees failed to understand. A sacrificed lamb can't forgive your sins, only God can propitiate, atone and forgive sins.

What spiritual benefit comes from avoiding pork and shell fish? None! It was made into law to show that those who believed in the coming Messiah were set apart from the rest of the world. The same went for all the cleansing rituals and fasts.

When Jesus came on the scene, He wanted people to see that He was the Son of Man, even the Lamb of God, sent to take away sin, but they couldn't see the sarcasm of the Law. They all followed blind ritual.

So my point is, all of Jesus' ministry reflects the OT, down to each parable. His teachings on the Law were an update/fulfillment of the OT satire.

I really have my doubts that anything has been left out of any Bible book. That would be hard to prove. Since our modern translations are derived from a composite compilation of a spectrum of manuscripts, it is much easier to prove that portions of scripture have been added. Finding those added verses are as simple as finding breaks in the syllabic meter and context. I know of a few portions of text that do not belong in the Gospels.

The Gospel of Thomas just doesn't fit with the four Gospels. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Its easy to quote OT and Jesus and stick it in a poem, but to make it work together with the rest of the pseudopigraphic message is not easy to do, and whoever wrote Thomas did a very poor job. Thats why its so 'all-over-the-place' (some parts making sense and some parts mean nothing).

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I have a seriously hard time believing any of the OT laws were based on Satire

Thomas wasn't meant to fit into the gospels... they are "sayings of Jesus", most of which were based around what is in the gospels... Not all of course, but there are clear and direct parallels.

On the other hand the gospels were meant to be read as a story of his life... that's why there is a lot of narrative in every one of them... especially johns gospel

Thomas isn't a story... its just things that Jesus said apparently... and we really don't know if he actually said some of the more complicated sayings or not... we don't know everything he did, and it even says in the gospels that he did so many things and said so much it would be almost impossible to write it all down.

The gnostic writers had a different approach to Jesus... some of which were right out there, but also some were really a more spiritual approach to what he taught as opposed to a life story

Mind you most of them seem to be written 200 plus years after his life, but again we don't know if the originals were written right after he died or not... same with the gospels... Theres a lot of things we just don't know

And unless the Vatican has a stack of texts in their archives that they won't release (which I personally believe they do) we will likely never know everything that was written about him

I believe a lot of what the gnostic writers had to say... not everything though. They believed Jesus didn't leave foot prints... nothing more then nonsense but I suppose anything is possible

a reply to: Akragon

I have a seriously hard time believing any of the OT laws were based on Satire

You should explore the idea. I'd like to make a thread on it, but I've got other projects on my hands right now.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

What and or who would even suggest such a theory... aside from, well... You?

Theres nothing in the bible that would even suggest anything in the OT is based on satire of any sort...

Even if some of the material is nothing short of laughable

a reply to: Akragon
Well, its not a theory I've read online, but look at this.

Gen 2:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 

Gen 2:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 

Its the Knowledge of Good and Evil that darkend our hearts, and Jesus is the light, so did He know Good and Evil like we do. I don't think He had darkeness in His heart, else He wouldn't be the light.

So was God being sarcastic in Gen 2:22? If so, it would explain why the Law was based on satire.


Remember that God created us in His image (spiritually speaking), so Adam and Eve were already like God before taking the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Psalm 82:6 says we "are elohim", and Jesus repeated that to the Pharisees, so God could have been rebuking Adam's actions with divine sarcasm.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Its the Knowledge of Good and Evil that darkend our hearts, and Jesus is the light, so did He lnow Good and Evil. I don't think He had darkeness in His heart.

One does not need darkness in their heart to know of evil...

So was God being sarcastic in Gen 2:22? If so, it would explain why the Law was based on satire.

Uhm... no not so much

In any case you know I don't believe for a second that the OT is "Gods words"... but for the sake of conversation lets say it is. And we'll also have to say Adam and Eve were real people...

Where exactly do you get satire from this?

Adam and eve were supposedly made perfect according to some Christians having no knowledge of such thing... but in fact that would make them less then perfect anyways... and such knowledge corrupted them even further

They were made lacking... naïve... child like

receiving said knowledge only opened their eyes

a reply to: Akragon

I get the satire, cuz the Knowledge of Good and Evil doesn't open your eyes, it darkens the heart. So God must have been using sarcasm.

I know you don't believe OT is God's word, but Jesus did quote Psalm 82. So explain that. Was He lending creedence to Psalm 82 or was He being sarcastic?

I believe Adam and Eve were created sinless, but they were also neutral. This was for a reason. They could either grow on God's word or on the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Its like a new born baby. Relatively speaking, a newborn usually has a functioning body, but its not fully matured. It can either grow on healthy diet and exercise or degenerate as a result of the opposite. Its not a perfect analogy, but you know what I mean.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I get the satire, cuz the Knowledge of Good and Evil doesn't open your eyes, it darkens the heart. So God must have been using sarcasm.

It doesn't eh...

Of course the easy answer is, it never actually happened.... but again lets go with the story

After eating said fruit...

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

So you're actually disagreeing with "Gods word"... good for you, that's a step in the right direction

I know you don't believe OT is God's word, but Jesus did quote Psalm 82. So explain that. Was He lending creedence to Psalm 82 or was He being sarcastic?

I've explained this before... Jesus used the texts everyone knew, what he himself was raised on to relate to his audience... the term "ye are gods" means there is a part of God in all of us... a spark of the divine

I believe Adam and Eve were created sinless, but they were also neutral. Thus was for a reason. They could either grow on God's word or on the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Except they didn't have "gods word"... nothing was written yet... all they had was whatever was directing them... they were easily influenced obviously due to the condition that I previously stated... born naïve... child like

a reply to: Akragon

Well Adam and Eve didn't have the Bible, but they did have a relationship with God in Eden, so that would be their source for His Word.

You're right that verse 7 says their eyes where open to the fact that they were naked, but it doesn't say that it made them like God.

22 And the LORD God said, BEHOLD, THE MAN IS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 

So the satire would be on whether or not the Knowledge of Good and Evil makes you like God, not how it opens your eyes.

Adam and Eve expected go know some grand secret. That secret happened to be that they were naked.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I know what you're saying but I don't agree at all...

Lets use another example... in a previous post you talked about pork being a sin to eat, and In actuality you said it was God basically making fun of these people because pork was actually ok according to Jesus

In reality, its more then likely people died from eating raw pork, and shellfish... IF either of them aren't cooked right its literally poison... after a few people died they probably thought God cursed them for eating a filthy animal... Thus, that law was born... ONLY because they didn't know any better

it wasn't ever Gods law in the first place... and it certainly wasn't this god being sarcastic... it was only a logical outcome of people dying from eating undercooked meat

a reply to: Akragon
I think the bigger picture says otherwise, but like I said its just my opinion.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

the bigger picture says the true "man of God" stamped out the stupidity in the old laws

turned 613 into 2

a reply to: Akragon

Or did the redundancy of the Law separate the sheep from the goats?

613 ways to emphasize different aspects of the 2.

See, the bigger picture is open to debate.

a reply to: cooperton

Read my first post in this thread as many times as it takes for you to see reality in that way - as many times as it takes for you to fully grasp it...

The physical, or "outward manifestation", is the image of what is seen in the spirit. The male and female union is in the spirit, but what you see is their physical union, their one flesh, or how they behave as one unit - that is their one flesh.

Also, I think the mystery being spoken of is when Christ will come to his Bride (the coming of the millennial kingdom). What's happening in the verse is, through the clarification of marriage, the unification of male and female as one flesh, by union of their spirits, the coming kingdom is revealed.

And again, it is very very important that you understand that first post I made. Without seeing reality as it is, you will not be able to see what is being said. You must seek God in spirit, to see God in the light/word.

Where is the door?

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: cooperton

Where is the door that the man and spider imaged?

Where are these words that I see and write?

My words are images of my awareness, (word/image/body/Son)
my awareness is of my spirit, (awareness/translator/soul/Father)
my spirit, my will, is to show you truth. (spirit/will/desire/Holy Ghost)

My words lead you to my awareness of my spirit. My words are my awareness of my spirit - they are what I see in my spirit - they are my spirit - my spirit is to write these words to you. My spirit, as I see it, is the will to write these very words to you, and that is what you are seeing now, as you read these words (my spirit). I have given you my body, these words / the image of my awareness, so that by eating, you will see / have life / have awareness [of the spirit].

[Body-Soul-Spirit][Soul-Body-Spirit][Spirit-Soul-Body]

Like a gift being the image of someone's will to give to you, as they have seen their will and translated it, to truly see the gift, you must see their spirit, which their awareness is of: which is their love for you (hopefully).

We have to stop thinking of physicality like it is a shell to forces, or that it is objects with forces within them, or round about them, and start thinking of physicality like it is will structured by awareness - it is determined will - THEN we can know Father and his kingdom (by knowing the awareness / by seeing his will). If we cannot do this, if we cannot see his will, then we cannot know him nor do his will for us...

Which is...

you have to find out that part for yourself.

So, by adhering to truth, and removing all falsehood, the path is revealed... The intention is love, but it also goes deeper than that. I can grasp the bigger picture, but applying it to the present is difficult, because I feel overwhelmed by the options. I have seen what I knew to be Spirit, and the Heavenly realm where the first was last and the last were first and everything was revealed, but I fell down to lower consciousness (will) due to sinful behavior, and have been struggling to return ever since. I am eager to pursue the next step, but I have trouble elucidating it.

a reply to: cooperton

originally posted by: cooperton
So, by adhering to truth, and removing all falsehood, the path is revealed... The intention is love, but it also goes deeper than that. I can grasp the bigger picture, but applying it to the present is difficult, because I feel overwhelmed by the options. I have seen what I knew to be Spirit, and the Heavenly realm where the first was last and the last were first and everything was revealed, but I fell down to lower consciousness (will) due to sinful behavior, and have been struggling to return ever since. I am eager to pursue the next step, but I have trouble elucidating it.

That is what I am trying to help you with: how to elucidate (see) the word, the path, or the way. You must think of physicality as the image of what is seen in will/spirit, then you will be able to see The Way.

e.g. Instead of looking at your monitor like it is a device that displays images, look at it as the image of someone's will/desire/spirit to create the image of your will/desire/spirit - the desire to create and trade to you the image of your will/desire/spirit for the image of their will/desire/spirit (your money). That is, the monitor is the image of someone's desire for your money. And whether the money is the end of their desire or merely a means to an end, the money is the image of their love, and that is what they want: they want your love, as they see love.

And that is what God wants - he wants godly children who will love as godly children do (Malachi 2:15). He wants you to manifest whatever his will for you is, in love... But again, that is where I have to leave off, as I do not know what his will for you is. I do not know the spirit between you - I can only speak in generalities on that, and hopefully help you to see it through understanding The Way.

Have you been baptized? Do you have the spirit of the Son in you? Without him, you won't see the truth of the way, as he is The Way.