Pre-Crime: Man Arrested And Beaten For Being In "Computer Predicted Crime Hot Spot"

originally posted by: Revolution9
a reply to: Hefficide

This incident you are using as an example is not actually fully associated with the pre crime computer prediction. The computer has, based on statistics, identified a hotspot, so the police have maintained a presence there. The guy's attitude is what got him into trouble. He should have allowed them to search him and told them why he was there. I would say to anyone don't mess with the police. Be polite and forthcoming from the word go. It is pointless to challenge and is the first step of escalation into an incident that could end up like this or even worse.

I think you have been a little imaginative here and making it fit your theories like a square peg in a round hole. You are using hype and exaggeration to make a point. The computer only reported statistics. This allows the police to focus their resources better. It is not predicting crime, just informing about problem areas.

Why should he have let them search him? I foolishly let police search my car once (they came up empty, of course), and it cost me $400 to repair the damage they did to my vehicle, not to mention 2 hours of lost time on my way to a camping trip waiting for them to finish rifling through my tightly-packed vehicle and then shoving everything back in to go on my way when they finally resigned themselves to the fact that I was not carrying a car full of assault rifles and crack, despite being "city folk" and "not from around here."

Also, why would someone need a reason to be somewhere? Who determines whether the reason is good enough? What if he said he likes the perspective provided by viewing crappy neighborhoods? Would that suffice? Or maybe he has a compulsion to spend 15 minutes parked on any street he drives by named after a tree. In the US, it doesn't matter what his reason is, it's his perogative to do as he pleases, so long as he's not breaking any laws.

a reply to: dogstar23

I have sat in countless parking lots texting my wife or searching for an address, or trying to find a song on spotify. If a cop came up and asked to search my car I would say no..

Interesting case. Sounds like an illegal detention. Just brain storming, but I think the officer needs to establish his own reasonable suspicion before he can detain the young man in question. I guess it will come down to when the suspect felt he was no longer free to leave. Without knowing the whole story, my initial impression is a violation of 4th

a reply to: lordcomac

Sounds about right, resisting is actually protecting yourself 75% of the time.

Those who wish to bend over and take it dry..fill your boots.

Funny, I just had a situation where I had to pull into a parking lot because I couldn't find the address. The parking lot was empty and there was only one other car. I spent a good 10min trying to find the place on Google Maps....

From an outside viewpoint, I was probably seen as a creep sitting in my car looking down my phone. From my point I was already freaking 20min late and I had no idea where that place was.

Now there was a cop car coming down the street but they ignored me, probably because they didn't see me (inside the car). However I wonder reading this story what would have had happened if they had seen me. I was not in the best neighborhood and I drive a pretty nice car.

This is real scary stuff. As with many here I would not agree to be searched if there was no reason.

Makes me wonder if I should install a hidden camera in my car just in case. That seems to be the last protection for us these days.

a reply to: flyandi

That's a good idea, a camera I mean. I have been thinking about doing the same thing, and a body cam for riding my bicycle. The things are becoming less expensive all the time. Soon enough it will be a battle of the footage in the courtroom. No need to hire a liar / lawyer to babble, BS and manipulate the ignorant jurors at all.

It's all an act anyway, theatre. May as well put it to video.

Yet people still want us to just roll out the red carpet for the police state.

This is why nobody respects police anymore, because they don't deserve it.

It is nothing that can not be fixed with a few thousand feet of copper wire.

I know a LOT of people who would support wholesale racial profiling for law enforcement -- as long as their race isn't the one being profiled.

I find the hypocrisy almost unbearable.

originally posted by: Hefficide


The Manchester PD is defending the action by stating that the victim could not provide a “legitimate reason for being in the area.”

How much more legitimate can an American citizen, minding his or her own business in a public area actually get for crying out loud! There's his legitimacy right there...he's American and he's a Citizen! It's not that difficult to comprehend.

To be clear, I am not at all in the camp that feels that cops are inherently bad people. I do support the idea of law enforcement vigorously. I also fully understand and defend that the behavior of some does not at all condemn an entire group in any situation. However patterns of behavior are emerging, and have been for some time now, that clearly indicate that law enforcement has some very, very deeply ingrained cultural flaws that simply have to be addressed and corrected. Plainly put, we are CITIZENS and not an INSURGENCY. They are PUBLIC SERVANTS and not AN OCCUPYING FORCE. I cannot state it any more clearly than that.

Couldn't have put it better myself OP..so i won't even try. I agree 100% with that statement.

That's not the picture of a young man, beaten up by the Police for nothing more than being a member of the public in a public area feeling sorry for himself because of his injuries...

That IS the picture of a young man, who is wondering just what the hell has happened to his country. It's written all over his face.

I google mapped a car wash last year on a Sunday morning. I pulled in, apparently they were closed. Pulled out, 10 seconds later cop was pulling me over. 2 cops came out, one stayed back with his hand on his gun. The other one (female) approached my passenger side to surprise me. I open the window. They ask what I'm doing. I said I was hoping to get my car washed. They tell me that the Car wash had been closed for 2 weeks. Told me I had been trespassing, even though I literally pulled in and out of their lot in 30 seconds elapsed. I told them that I didn't know that, just google mapped the Car wash. I told them there was no signs saying it was closed, and no "no trespassing" signs. They said it didn't matter, still trespassing. Then they told me that the Car wash had been vandalized by teenagers a few nights prior. I asked them if I looked like a teenager, and asked them if I looked stupid enough to vandalize a car wash on a Sunday morning.

They didn't like that answer. They didn't appreciate the sarcasm, and their intellect being challenged.

Keep in mind I'm a nicely dressed, white gentlemen with a nice car. And this is one of the lowest crime small towns in the state.

They demanded I step out of my car, I complied. They then began searching my car without my consent. They found a bag with Chinese writing on it, asked me if it was what I kept my drugs in. I told them no, it's what my replacement circuit board for my printer came in.

Eventually, they let me go after asking me a million questions and claiming I was a criminal.

What thay didn't know, was that their boss, the chief of police in this small town, was my wife's uncle.

One cop is now out of a job. The other one got a suspension.

a reply to: WP4YT

If only every bad cop's boss was related to your Wife!

(But imagine the Xmas presents would be a nightmare)

Nice story..would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when they got dragged into the office.

a reply to: Hefficide

Predictive policing is not new Heff. It's been going on for years.

gcn.com...

In the case I linked, I can see it's usefulness. In this case though? It's redundant. If a police officer needs a computer software program to tell him where a high crime rate area or zip code is......he needs desk duty. He has no business on the streets. Police officers know where the "hot-spots" are. It's part of their job. For the record, I'm a cab driver in the Phoenix metro area.....meaning Phoenix and every other city that shares the same patch of asphalt........I work it. If I relied on a "predictive policing" software program to do my job safely.......I wouldn't make any money. We have drivers out there who get robbed at gunpoint. Do you know why Heff? Because they're new and they don't know where not to go. They don't know where the high crime areas are. The people on here who say that if a cop asks them what they're doing out there, as is this case we're talking about, they'll say "none of your business, are idiots. I'd rather deal with a cop asking me that than the local crack head. But that's just me, I don't go out of my way way looking for trouble.

And then there's this:

DeLeire’s father said his son gave the police officer a legitimate reason for being in the area. His friend was picking up a niece who lived a block away, and Connor DeLeire was sitting in the car waiting for them. - See more at: www.unionleader.com...

No offense to you Heff, but how ignorant does a person have to be to believe that load of garbage? His niece was a block away, so that makes him sitting in a parking lot where johns hang out legitimate? Spare me. If he could drive his car to that parking lot, he could have made it one more block to get his niece. I may have been born during the day Heff, but it wasn't yesterday. If I were the cop he told that to, I would have kicked his a** just for insulting my intelligence, then FIND charges to nail on him. That kid was as low rent as the neighborhood he was sitting in.

One last thing about this. All these people on here who say this is a free country, the constitution guarantees free assembly and the cops are jack-booted thugs when they're asking you why you are where you are? There's a park with man made lake in it with ducks and geese that I would like to take my girlfriend to to feed the ducks and watch the sunset over the lake.Nice and romantic. But it's in an area that has just recently turned high crime, so I don't because I don't want anything bad to happen to us by the hands of the local bad element. Where is my freedom to do this Heff? I like that damn park. Where is my freedom to assemble me and my lady in a park of my choosing? It was taken away by the bad element in the area. That same bad element that police are trying to be proactive in stopping. That's where it is.

Predictive policing? Have at it if it helps them do their jobs. I don't like my "constitutional rights" taken away by thugs.

Do you ATS?

Comments saying that they are happy that he's a white: Actually that means nothing will come of it due to being clear that he was guilty as charged and deserved this pre crime assessment. Hmm, guess people were right when they were warned about these types of things... oh wait, move along nothing to see here!

originally posted by: Taupin Desciple
If I were the cop he told that to, I would have kicked his a** just for insulting my intelligence, then FIND charges to nail on him. That kid was as low rent as the neighborhood he was sitting in.

Then you are no better than the officers if you feel it is justified to violently assault a private citizen due to the answers he may have provided you while he was NOT in the commission of a crime.

originally posted by: Taupin Desciple

No offense to you Heff, but how ignorant does a person have to be to believe that load of garbage? His niece was a block away, so that makes him sitting in a parking lot where johns hang out legitimate? Spare me. I may have been born during the day, but it wasn't yesterday. If I were the cop he told that to, I would have kicked his a** just for insulting my intelligence, then FIND charges to nail on him. That kid was as low rent as the neighborhood he was sitting in.

Are you stating that jailing people on trumped up charges because they "insulted" the "intelligence" of a police officer is the way you wish things to be? If so... Shame.

originally posted by: Taupin Desciple

One last thing about this. All these people on here who say this is a free country, the constitution guarantees free assembly and the cops are jack-booted thugs when they're asking you why you are where you are? There's a park with man made lake in it with ducks and geese that I would like to take my girlfriend to to feed the ducks and watch the sunset over the lake.Nice and romantic. But it's in an area that has just recently turned high crime, so I don't because I don't want anything bad to happen to us by the hands of the local bad element. Where is my freedom to do this Heff? I like that damn park. Where is my freedom to assemble me and my lady in a park of my choosing? It was taken away by the bad element in the area. That same bad element that police are trying to be proactive in stopping. That's where it is.

Ends do not justify means. Is there a valid reason to up patrols and exposure in high crime areas? Absolutely. Does that upped exposure need to include violating the Constitutional Rights of citizens simply because they are there? Absolutely NOT.

originally posted by: Taupin Desciple

Predictive policing? Have at it if it helps them do their jobs. I don't like my "constitutional rights" taken away by thugs.

If you truly believe this then I suggest that you are being short sighted and are willing to trade one group of thugs for another. And the group of thugs you desire are infinitely more dangerous as they already have a power advantage and can subvert the rule and color of law.

a reply to: Taupin Desciple

If I were the cop he told that to, I would have kicked his a** just for insulting my intelligence, then FIND charges to nail on him. That kid was as low rent as the neighborhood he was sitting in.

Then frankly, it's a good job you're a cab driver than a cop.

If the Cops thought he was in that car park as a 'John'..surely it would have been a better idea to have simply watched him, and if a working girl and he made a deal, then arrest the pair of them?

It doesn't matter if the car park is frequented by Johns...at all. It's a PUBLIC area...you know..for the Public?

There's areas near to where i used to live, a very hilly and picturesque beauty spot that i used to go running and generally train in..it was also well known to be used by couples, gay people, doggers and the like for sexual liaisons...should i have been arrested and had my arse kicked by my local police for being in an area where indecent activities took place?

No, it was public land, and like this guy in the OP..i had a perfect right to be there, without offering any explanation as to why.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Taupin Desciple
If I were the cop he told that to, I would have kicked his a** just for insulting my intelligence, then FIND charges to nail on him. That kid was as low rent as the neighborhood he was sitting in.

Then you are no better than the officers if you feel it is justified to violently assault a private citizen due to the answers he may have provided you while he was NOT in the commission of a crime.

And you know this how? Because they didn't catch him red-handed?

originally posted by: Taupin Desciple

And you know this how? Because they didn't catch him red-handed?

Exactly. Which would have been the definition of a crime.

Parking in a public area, despite it being a known pick up spot, is NOT a crime. Someone already mentioned it, if these two bozos were worth their badges they would have observed him and made an arrest on solicitation charges if he was actually there looking to engage in sex with a prostitute.

originally posted by: Hefficide

originally posted by: Taupin Desciple

Predictive policing? Have at it if it helps them do their jobs. I don't like my "constitutional rights" taken away by thugs.

If you truly believe this then I suggest that you are being short sighted and are willing to trade one group of thugs for another. And the group of thugs you desire are infinitely more dangerous as they already have a power advantage and can subvert the rule and color of law.

Sorry, but I don't agree. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of police officers are not bad. My experiences have led me to see that bad cops are stupid as to HOW they are supposed to do their jobs, and the good officers are smart as to how they do their jobs. Media shows us the bad because if it bleeds, it leads. I know you know that Heff. I'm disappointed in that you seem to have bought into the hype.

As for replacing one group of thugs for another, I've never had a problem with the "thugs" in blue.

For the record, this whole predictive policing thing that led to this is a redundant measure IMO. The police have been doing this manually ever since their have been police.