It's time to wake up!

a reply to: Peeple

Conditioning can be broken.

Only unless that desire what caused by something. And that cause is always out of any control.

a reply to: Andy1144

Like a feeling, or desire? What cause?

a reply to: daskakik

Who are "you"?
What is control?
What do you desire on a grander scale?

You is a mind body unit. It only behaves based on previous causes. It can't behave without having some cause of doing so. There is no control free from cause and effect. For example "I am making this decision free from any circumstance whatsoever, this includes causes on a micro level. So making a decision free from absolutely anything. That is not possible.

a reply to: Peeple

Anything that causes you to desire something over something else. There needs to be a reason why you want to make that decision. The brain thinks is it the best option possible so it makes it. If it were another brain, then it would probably make another choice. No freedom in choosing our brains, and no freedom in choice because choice is predominantly from our brain.

a reply to: Andy1144

Your statment makes no sense. You are just re-using the terms without explaining what you mean by them.

a reply to: daskakik

Free will as I define it, is the ability to make a choice free from any cause whatsoever. The cause can be on an atomic level up to a bigger level. There is no free will to choose something free from any atomic cause. You make a descision because the atoms were arranged in a certain way, and you can't control atoms can you?

This is how no free will is most conventionally meant and am surprised you don't know that.

originally posted by: Andy1144
Free will as I define it, is the ability to make a choice free from any cause whatsoever.

Well, I don't accept your definition.

This is how no free will is most conventionally meant and am surprised you don't know that.

BS, Peeple linked the conventional definition.

a reply to: Andy1144

If you mean personality with brain than i partially agree.
I still have the last word in choosing between options, freely.
Like an addictive personality still can choose to stay sober, even if it is harder for that person than it would be for someone else. You always sound like all there is, is the first impuls, but i always have more than one option.

a reply to: daskakik

This doesn't need to be complicated. When a decision is made, there couldn't have possibly been a different outcome then that decision. Thinking otherwise is completely unjustified.

a reply to: Peeple

I still have the last word in choosing between options, freely.
Like an addictive personality still can choose to stay sober, even if it is harder for that person than it would be for someone else.

That's not the sort of free will I am talking about. if that person eventually chooses to stay sober, his choice was influenced by conditioned which he couldn't control. His brain was structured a certain way, therefore he chose that, if he had a different brain, then maybe he wouldn't. And you can't choose your brain or the structure of it.

originally posted by: Andy1144
This doesn't need to be complicated. When a decision is made, there couldn't have possibly been a different outcome then that decision. Thinking otherwise is completely unjustified.

You have not proven that to be the case. You make it seem like the decision is based on a single thought. When someone thinks things over before acting, they will have many thoughts being judged before a decision is made.

Once a choice is made situations or available information might also change causing the choice to change.

But, here is the crux, you say that thinking and choosing never really stops so then your only real "enlightenment" was to stop over-worring about things. Most people don't suffer from that so you are not presenting any new info. You are just overselling something because it impressed you.

originally posted by: Andy1144
That's not the sort of free will I am talking about.

More twisting just to make things fit.

a reply to: daskakik

When someone thinks things over before acting, they will many thoughts being judged before a decision is made.

Ofcourse there will, but when the final decision is made, it couldn't have been any different could it? Saying it could is like saying "he could of done otherwise if he thought otherwise" The point is that's BS. He didn't think otherwise, he thought was he thought and the decision was an ineffable consequence of those thoughts or whatever influenced the descision.

originally posted by: daskakik
When someone thinks things over before acting, they will have many thoughts being judged before a decision is made.

Once a choice is made situations or available information might also change causing the choice to change.

Exactly the choice is not made by you - it happens depending on situations and information available.

originally posted by: Andy1144
Ofcourse there will, but when the final decision is made, it couldn't have been any different could it?

Different than what?

Free will means that that person can carry out that decision. Whatever he chose it was his chooice to make.

If there is any control then where is it found?

Just to clarify I don't mean self control. Such a concept is useful if you want to lets say loose weight and we can say, I will have the self control to not get controlled by my genetic impulses to indulge everything I see. That's not the control I am talking about. Because choosing to resist your urges is just another urge isn't it?

I am saying where does freedom of desire for example originate from?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Who is "you"?

originally posted by: daskakik


But, here is the crux, you say that thinking and choosing never really stops so then your only real "enlightenment" was to stop over-worring about things.

Travelling lighter is enlightenment.

Choosing and doing all continue to happen but I have left the building. Everything - including choosing and thinking and writing and speaking continues to happen but there is no one doing or choosing, thinking or speaking.
It's a movie.

originally posted by: Andy1144
If there is any control then where is it found?

I don't think it has been found but, that doesn't mean that there isn't a source of control.

a reply to: daskakik

Different than what?
Free will means that that person can carry out that decision. Whatever he chose it was his chooice to make.

Different then what me decided.
Your definition is one way it is defined. there are more then one ways of defining it.
I agree with your definition. There is freedom in doing what you want. But his desire was out of his control.