High school suspends coach for praying at games and Satanists make an appearance

a reply to: chuck258

The cases are clear. The school district policies are clear.

The Washington Constitution is clear, as is the US Constitution.

What anyone thinks, believes or interprets about these facts is their own issue.

The Coach broke the law, was insubordinate, and seems to care more about his own fame than about the kids he leads.

EDIT: But in the end, thanks for trying to answer my questions.

originally posted by: Achilles92x
a reply to: chuck258

As a Christian and Armenian whose ancestors suffered through the Genocide, thank you for this post.

Too often do I see atheists with a vendetta against Christianity who would never touch Islam nor admit the "crimes" of atheism like you did (though I consider all atrocities done by atheism and religion to be an extension of the evil of humanity, using philosophy and beliefs as a vehicle for their hatred). You're a very honest and respectable person.

How often do you see Christians with a vendetta against atheism or Islam? Does that also bother you, or is that completely justifiable?

What do you make of the fact that two of the greatest so-called genocidal atheists were Christians? (Hitler and Stalin).

Do you think that it's okay for Christians to bend or ignore the actual facts of the matter when "defending their faith"?

Do you think that the fact that you are a Christian might bias your view of things ... just a little bit?

What do you think about the actual topic here, the coach, our laws, and the freedom of (and from) religion?

Thank you kindly.

From the school district's official statement regarding Coach Kennedy:

Why can’t Kennedy lead students in voluntary prayer? Nobody is forced to participate, are they?

There is indeed no evidence that students have been directly coerced to pray with Kennedy. But that isn’t the standard. Over fifteen years ago, the United States Supreme Court said as much. In Santa Fe Indep. Sch. Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290 (2000), the Court held that a school district’s practice of simply allowing its facilities to be used for religious expression during a district sponsored football game violated the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause because of the reasonable perception by students and attendees of district endorsement of religion. That decision makes clear that students can pray on their own; but it is a constitutional violation of students’ rights for a District employee, acting as such, to initiate prayers with students.

It is equally clear that District employees may not participate in even student-initiated prayer. Doe v. Duncanville Indep. Sch. Dist., 70 F.3d 402 (1995). While attending games may be voluntary for most students, students required to be present by virtue of their participation in football or cheerleading will necessarily suffer a degree of coercion to participate in religious activity when their coaches lead or endorse it.

Notably, we believe Mr. Kennedy understands this. On September 17, 2015, the District notified him that he was prohibited from repeating his prior practices of leading players in a pre-game prayer in the locker room or leading players in a post-game prayer immediately following games.

To the District’s knowledge, Mr. Kennedy has complied with those directives not to intentionally involve students in his on-duty religious activities. However, he has continued a practice of engaging in a public religious display immediately following games, while he is still on duty.

Bremerton School District Q&A Regarding Coach Kennedy

... and from the same source ...

Why has the District prohibited Mr. Kennedy from praying on his own?

It hasn’t. The District respects Mr. Kennedy’s own constitutional right to free exercise of religion, and understands that it has a duty to reasonably accommodate that exercise under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. To that end, the District has repeatedly offered to accommodate Kennedy’s religious exercise by providing him with a private location to use for prayer that does not interfere with his performance of his duties. Examples are private locations within the school building or athletic facility, or even in the Memorial Stadium press box. The District has also encouraged Kennedy to offer his own suggestions for ways in which his desire to engage in private prayer can be accommodated without subjecting the District to liability for violating the Establishment Clause.

To date, Mr. Kennedy has not taken the District up on any of these offers. Instead, his legal representatives have clearly stated in the media that an accommodation that does not allow Kennedy the spotlight of the 50-yard line immediately following games will be unacceptable to him.

EDIT: Every one of the spurious comments that keep getting made repeatedly in this thread are clarified for you here.

Here is what's legal or not regarding prayers.

education.findlaw.com...

Types of Prayer Banned

Any activity that causes the school to advance one particular religion, or group of religions, over another will most likely be banned under the First Amendment. These types of activities include:

Mandatory Prayer: Forcing children to pray during school hours;

Teacher-Led Prayer: A school employee reciting a prayer with the expectation that students will repeat the prayer or think about the words said;

Invocations and Other Prayer at School Functions:

Prayer by clergy, school employee, or student during school related event such as football games and graduations;

Voluntary Prayer: time set aside for students to pray;

Student-Led Prayer: students may not use school resources, including the PA system or class time, to lead other students in prayer.

So he did break the law, and paid for it with his job.

Anyone who agrees people should have freedom of religion then why should they have any problem with people praying.

I see an argument going on in this thread where both sides are showing complete intolerance towards the other. It's when people are intolerant of others beliefs that religion (or atheism) becomes a problem.

originally posted by: Heedbanger
Anyone who agrees people should have freedom of religion then why should they have any problem with people praying.

I see an argument going on in this thread where both sides are showing complete intolerance towards the other. It's when people are intolerant of others beliefs that religion (or atheism) becomes a problem.

Why do you think it's okay to tell others what they "should" think and feel?

Why do beliefs have anything to do with this? Did you read anything posted here?

It's not "intolerance" to stand behind the law, legal decisions and the school board policies.

It's not "intolerance" to make every attempt to accommodate the Coach's need to pray EXCEPT WHAT IS POINTEDLY ILLEGAL.

It's not a matter of "well, its okay with me" ... it's a matter of the law.

originally posted by: Achilles92x
a reply to: chuck258

As a Christian and Armenian whose ancestors suffered through the Genocide, thank you for this post.

Too often do I see atheists with a vendetta against Christianity who would never touch Islam nor admit the "crimes" of atheism like you did (though I consider all atrocities done by atheism and religion to be an extension of the evil of humanity, using philosophy and beliefs as a vehicle for their hatred). You're a very honest and respectable person.

An atheist claiming atrocities in the name of atheism ---- is no atheist.

Atheism is lack of belief in a God --- it is not a verb. --- it takes no action.

As there are Christians "in name only" --- there are atheists "in name only".

Christians in America need to understand "Your rights end where mine begin".

I was raised Christian. I understand perfectly.

a reply to: Annee

Not to mention the scattering of supposed citations above are from totalitarian dictators.

1. They are political crimes and war crimes, not crimes done in "the name of atheism." The crimes were done to consolidate power. They were not done "to convert people to Atheism" ... there's no book of Atheism, no creed, no ritual ...

It's a blatant attempt to misrepresent the facts.

2. There's never any evidence offered that Stalin, Hitler or Pol Pot were in fact atheists. Those Christians hate it, Hitler was for all intents and purposes a practicing Christian, and Stalin probably was atheist but there are indications that he converted to Orthodox Christianity toward the end of his life. Pol Pot may have been non-religious, but that was NOT why he led the revolution.

3. Besides all that by that same silly logic, George W. Bush was President during the Iraq War. In that war 500,000 civilians died all on the commanded actions of Bush. Is Christianity responsbile for those deaths? Nope, bombs and bullets are. (Source).

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Annee

Not to mention the scattering of supposed citations above are from totalitarian dictators.

1. They are political crimes and war crimes, not crimes done in "the name of atheism." The crimes were done to consolidate power. They were not done "to convert people to Atheism" ... there's no book of Atheism, no creed, no ritual ...

It's a blatant attempt to misrepresent the facts.

2. There's never any evidence offered that Stalin, Hitler or Pol Pot were in fact atheists. Those Christians hate it, Hitler was for all intents and purposes a practicing Christian, and Stalin probably was. Pol Pot may have been non-religious, but that was NOT why he led the revolution.

3. Besides all that by that same silly logic, George W. Bush was President during the Iraq War. In that war 500,000 civilians died all on the commanded actions of Bush. Is Christianity responsbile for those deaths? Nope, bombs and bullets are. (Source).

Oh, I know. Had this discussion many times.

A claimed atheist not understanding Separation of Church and State and supporting a state employee's right to pray with "captive" minors on government property, during official event????

a reply to: Annee

Well, imagine this happening:

Coach Griffin goes out onto the 50 yard lines after the game, raises his arms and says:

"Since there were absolutely no evidence of any God or godlike forces at work in this game, I just want to thank all the student athletes for their hard work in training and the contents of their character that cause them to compete with good sportsman like temperaments. I want to thank the parents for their support, the school district and most of all, since there is absolutely no supernatural or mystical forces at work here, I want to acknowledge the student body for coming and giving our team all this support."

3 ... 2 ... 1 ... Cue the hue and cry and gnashing of teeth ...

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Klassified

Attacking prayer is stupid. Even Satanists pray. People will do anything for attention, even make themselves look like morons.

If the prayer is not mandatory IMO it should be allowed.

I think the football players should organize their own prayer because the students have the right to pray so long as they don't force anyone else. This would solve the problem and the believers could still pray together.

if the coach is leading the prayer...it's mandatory, don't kid yourself.

a reply to: Klassified

It's funny, and sad the amount of christian bashing that goes on these days...and the people saying things like "obviously he didn't know the constitution." Well the constitution was about congress not establishing religion, not local government employees. It was case law later on that decided that no government employee no matter how obscure could hint at anything religious...well actually Christian, as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism are ok for some reason. I guess I don't really see teachers as "government employees," but that's just me.
The prayer before a game is asking for protection, guidance, and inspires hope in the team...you guys are literally destroying hope

a reply to: AnonymousMoose

well actually Christian, as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism are ok for some reason.

Let me know when we have coaches leading in those prayers and then we can talk about if they are ok.
Your own logic says that they should be though, since you want to say the constitution doesn't cover local public schools.
Ironic.
Public schools.

you guys are literally destroying hope

No, we are not. Nice appeal to emotion though.

originally posted by: AnonymousMoose
a reply to: Klassified

...sad the amount of christian bashing that goes on these days...

The coach broke the law. He was asked to stop, and didn't. Are Christians above the law?

The Constitution is a "living" framework. It evolves like everything else, as it should.

Separation of Church and State today is what has been fought for and won through the legal process.

We do not live 200 years ago.

Your rights end where mine begin. If you force Christianity --- it is you who is doing the bashing.

a reply to: AnonymousMoose

Yes, Christian-bashing is a problem. So's Muslim-bashing, Jew-bashing, Buddhist-bashing (hey, why not), Sikhs, Satanists and Wiccans.

All being bashed by one group or the other.

And in the end none of that has anything to do with the laws of the land, even when it is real (and in the specific case of so-called "Christian-bashing" it's quite often not, to be blunt.)

Disagreeing about statements made by Christians is not bashing. Pointing out the truth about Christians (like the ones at the football game that harassed and assaulted Satanists) is not bashing.

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. (US Constitution, Article 6, Clause 2). That's really all you need to know.

Read it sometime, you might be amazed at what it actually says.

And stop with the silly appeals to emotion like "killing hope" ... what rot! ... and also, perhaps you should read the thread, the matter at stake here is a prayer after the game not before.

I know it's fun to click on a title and jump right in with your preconceived notions, but believe it or not, some of us are attempting to discuss the matter factually.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: AnonymousMoose

Yes, Christian-bashing is a problem. So's Muslim-bashing, Jew-bashing, Buddhist-bashing (hey, why not), Sikhs, Satanists and Wiccans.

Hey, don't forget atheists.

Which, BTW, does not mean anti-Christian or anti any other God belief.

a reply to: Annee

You have a point. I guess I'll have to take my "absence of belief in imaginary beings" and get it codified somehow.

I keep hearing that Atheism is a religion ... should I be demanding special rights like the Christians here?

Can I get tax exemptions for spreading the good news that things which don't exist ... er, uh ... don't exist?

Problem is ... it's obvious.

No religion needed.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Annee

You have a point. I guess I'll have to take my "absence of belief in imaginary beings" and get it codified somehow.

I keep hearing that Atheism is a religion ... should I be demanding special rights like the Christians here?

Can I get tax exemptions for spreading the good news that things which don't exist ... er, uh ... don't exist?

Problem is ... it's obvious.

No religion needed.

And don't forget. Anyone who disagrees with you is persecuting you.

a reply to: AnonymousMoose

It's funny, and sad the amount of christian bashing that goes on these days...

It must seem that way, when you're convinced that any one who isn't a Christian is the walking dead, and bound for eternal damnation. Kinda puts Christians above the rest of humanity, doesn't it? They can be at ease knowing they aren't going to hell like those Muslims, or Jews, or Wiccans, etc. Those people are all under the control of Satan, and don't even know it. If they would only repent, they could be among us, and watch god murder 2/3 of humanity during the tribulation, because he's pissed.

and the people saying things like "obviously he didn't know the constitution." Well the constitution was about congress not establishing religion, not local government employees. It was case law later on that decided that no government employee no matter how obscure could hint at anything religious...well actually Christian, as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism are ok for some reason. I guess I don't really see teachers as "government employees," but that's just me.

All of this has been repeatedly covered in detail by Gryphon, Annee, and others in this thread.

The prayer before a game is asking for protection, guidance, and inspires hope in the team...you guys are literally destroying hope.

Oddly enough. The Satanists were asking the same thing when they tried to pray at the game, and look how they were treated by the Christians and others for doing so.

originally posted by: Klassified

Oddly enough. The Satanists were asking the same thing when they tried to pray at the game, and look how they were treated by the Christians and others for doing so.

Have you noticed that not one of our crusaders for religious freedoms has expressed any concerns for the poor beleaguered Satanists?

Isn't that odd? Religious freedom is religious freedom for all Americans ... isn't it?