Florida’s New Anti-Gay, Anti-Woman Bill May Be the Most Malicious Yet

a reply to: pyramid head

No, the point to me starting this was to discuss this purposed Bill, look who is demonizing who in this topic...

a reply to: pyramid head

I'm not aware of what you are referring to regarding the POTUS funding the murder of LGBT people. You'll have to provide more info on that - but, do it on another thread please.

a reply to: pyramid head

uganda, isis, is so far away, and really not much of a threat to the US...
and we won't get into just how much the conservative administration that was before obama helped in their formation will we???

Personally, I don't see how undermining the separation of church and state does anything except help something like isis (be it an islamic form or a christian form of it) rising up in the United States!
And I see this law as possibly undermining that separation as well as many other things the christian far right has been trying to accomplish of late! it's like yous think that the only defense against ISIS is to claim you own christian theocratic rule or something... It's not an either or, we don't have to chose between the two, we've been a country run without it for a long time, with members among us of many different faiths, and we have lived in peace. And, we have ALL benefited a great deal from the freedom as well as the advances that such a system has allowed us to have, advances and freedoms that would have never been possibly if the religions had been holding their reigns!

a reply to: Darth_Prime

yes I have. and see the results of murderer after murderer being acquitted on the basis of "being off his meds and not in control of their actions" such as many of the schizophrenics with family money that can afford this defense.

Either way, its my convenience store. You want a phone charger or beef jerky you can visit the local wal-mart or 7 eleven. Vote with your dollars and just dont shop at my family business. It is not a difficult thing to achieve. I buy directly from china and dont have fifteen minute lines full of disgruntled zombies waiting to save 3 cents on a pair of headphones, so I can actually compete locally just fine.

I have a sign on the door that clearly says I reserve my right as a business owner to refuse service for any reason I deem. I kick people out of my shop every week, and most of them are not the mentally ill but slick shoplifters and teenagers loitering. Sometimes they get rowdy and I kick them out. They like to hang out here because I sell other stuff like crystals and mineral specimens as well as imported south african game trophy and taxidermy. It is more as my personal collection and it draws people in with curiosity, but if they want to buy i will sell.

a reply to: AmericanRealist

Well, if you are in a State with Anti-Discrimination Laws that include Sexual-Orientation and Gender-Identity than legally you are not allowed to deny services based on Sexuality or Gender-Identity

What do Murderers and schizophrenics have to do with GLBTQ+ people?

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: grandmakdw

...
Where is the love and understanding that Christ preached?
Where is the acceptance of others that Christ preached?
Where is the Golden rule that Christ preached? Why do
Christians want to treat LGBT people unequally when the Christians
themselves would not want to be treated unequally?

Why do LGBT people have to be shut in the closet or shut
out of the business establishment to
make these Christians happy? So sad.

You are right that Jesus never spoke against LGBT

and I have never spoken against LGBT.
In everything I have ever written I have said
I don't care if someone is gay or not, live
and let live, marry 5 people if you want,
do what you want, fine, be happy.

However,
Why do Christians have to be shut in the closet or
shut out of doing business because of their
faith. Why do you want to make people choose
between their faith or their business?
To make LGBT happy. Very sad also.

a reply to: grandmakdw

This conversation can go in circles though, why do some Christians feel the need to Discriminate against people?

You seem not to understand, no one has to choose between their Beliefs and their business, all most of us are saying is that you shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against anyone Based on Any Religious belief if you are offering a Public Services.

especially this Bill since it would include Medical and Health Services, and again you also can't see past the GLBTQ+ what if you or a Family member was in need of Help and were denied because you are a Christian?

originally posted by: grandmakdw


You are right that Jesus never spoke against LGBT

and I have never spoken against LGBT.
In everything I have ever written I have said
I don't care if someone is gay or not, live
and let live, marry 5 people if you want,
do what you want, fine, be happy.

And I'm very proud of you! If you were a baker who made wedding cakes, would you sell a wedding cake to a gay couple?

However,
Why do Christians have to be shut in the closet or
shut out of doing business because of their
faith. Why do you want to make people choose
between their faith or their business?
To make LGBT happy. Very sad also.

You mean faith that tells them not to do business with gays? I thought we just established that this is based on outdated scripture that has nothing to do with Christ. There is nothing in the Christian faith from Jesus that says Christians shouldn't do business with gays/same-sex weddings. There is nothing in the Christian faith that says homosexuality or same-sex marriage is a sin. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. This faith-based view is based on a lie. Prove me wrong.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: grandmakdw


You are right that Jesus never spoke against LGBT

and I have never spoken against LGBT.
In everything I have ever written I have said
I don't care if someone is gay or not, live
and let live, marry 5 people if you want,
do what you want, fine, be happy.

And I'm very proud of you! If you were a baker who made wedding cakes, would you sell a wedding cake to a gay couple?

However,
Why do Christians have to be shut in the closet or
shut out of doing business because of their
faith. Why do you want to make people choose
between their faith or their business?
To make LGBT happy. Very sad also.

You mean faith that tells them not to do business with gays? I thought we just established that this is based on outdated scripture that has nothing to do with Christ. There is nothing in the Christian faith from Jesus that says Christians shouldn't do business with gays/same-sex weddings. There is nothing in the Christian faith that says homosexuality or same-sex marriage is a sin. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. This faith-based view is based on a lie. Prove me wrong.

If I were a baker, I'd bake a cake for a gay wedding
and give them the cake to put whatever they wanted
on top.
I'd do the rest of the cake.
That is what we did for our daughter's wedding,
brought our own top and put it on at the wedding.

But I would not decorate a cake with satanic symbols,
or with genitals or with breasts.

There are a lot
of faith based reasons I would not
either decorate or bake cakes for.

I would refuse to bake lewd shaped cakes for anyone.

I would refuse to put satanic symbols or
Wiccan symbols on a cake. I'd bake the cake,
but say they have to put their symbols on
for themselves.

I would not decorate a cake for an S&M party with
S&M pictures on it.

I would not bake a cake for a Muslim wedding
where the bride was under 18 AND the groom
more than 10 years older than the bride.

Under current law, the way it stands
it means I, as a baker would be
required by law to bake all of the cakes above
if I baked shaped cakes or decorated cakes
with the choice of the customer's pictures.
Or risk heavy fines or being run out of business
for discrimination.

Under current law anyone can demand nearly
anything of a service provider and they must
comply,
no matter how much they are repulsed
by the request or find the request offensive.

If they do a similar thing for others, like
bake a cake with customer requested symbols
or pictures;
then the baker can be severely
punished for not putting on symbols, like a
swastika
they find offensive and is against
their strongly held beliefs; or be subject
to a lawsuit for discrimination.

They must do it or face fines and loss of business.


As it stands currently business owners have no rights
at all when it comes to what customers can force them
to do, as long as they do something similar for other
customers. That is wrong.

It is taking away the rights
of the business owner to refuse to do something they
find offensive or repulsive, like put a swastika on a cake.

It is telling people with definite values/morals
to go hide your values in a closet
hide your morals in a closet
lock the door and don't let your faith outside
of the closet
Do whatever people want you to do no matter
how offensive you find it or how much you are
repulsed by doing it.
Because your Christian values/morals are dangerous and
offensive to society and so you must keep them
private and behind closed doors and not expose
anyone to your degenerate (in our opinion:because
we don't like your values/morals)
thinking that we don't like.

originally posted by: grandmakdw








Under current law, the way it stands
it means I, as a baker would be
required by law to bake all of the cakes above
if I baked shaped cakes or decorated cakes
with the choice of the customer's pictures.
Or risk heavy fines or being run out of business
for discrimination.

Under current law anyone can demand nearly
anything of a service provider and they must
comply,
no matter how much they are repulsed
by the request or find the request offensive.

If they do a similar thing for others, like
bake a cake with customer requested symbols
or pictures;
then the baker can be severely
punished for not putting on symbols, like a
swastika
they find offensive and is against
their strongly held beliefs; or be subject
to a lawsuit for discrimination.

They must do it or face fines and loss of business.

But that is not true! It doesn't matter if you advertise custom cakes. A baker doesn't have to do any custom decoration they find personally offensive - as long as they refuse to do that custom decoration no matter who the customer is. In other words, if you refuse to do a penis cake for a gay person, you should also refuse to do a penis cake for a heterosexual bachelorette party.

There is NO law that says a baker has to decorate a cake according to whatever the customer wants no matter what. No such law exists.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I would not bake a cake for a Muslim wedding
where the bride was under 18 AND the groom
more than 10 years older than the bride.

Love how you turned this into a muslim issue, like trophy wife's are exclusive to them. I know what you really wanted to say though but tried to frame in so it wasn't against the law.
Oh and would you bake that cake for a Christian?
Please answer that question directly.

It's funny because what you talk about is what people want. To be offered the basic service. No one is saying they have to bake cakes shaped as genatelia or put offensive pictures on cakes. That wasn't the issue either of the cases about cakes but don't let that little fact get in the way of your persecution complex and acting like businesses have no rights.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: grandmakdw








Under current law, the way it stands
it means I, as a baker would be
required by law to bake all of the cakes above
if I baked shaped cakes or decorated cakes
with the choice of the customer's pictures.
Or risk heavy fines or being run out of business
for discrimination.

Under current law anyone can demand nearly
anything of a service provider and they must
comply,
no matter how much they are repulsed
by the request or find the request offensive.

If they do a similar thing for others, like
bake a cake with customer requested symbols
or pictures;
then the baker can be severely
punished for not putting on symbols, like a
swastika
they find offensive and is against
their strongly held beliefs; or be subject
to a lawsuit for discrimination.

They must do it or face fines and loss of business.

But that is not true! It doesn't matter if you advertise custom cakes. A baker doesn't have to do any custom decoration they find personally offensive - as long as they refuse to do that custom decoration no matter who the customer is. In other words, if you refuse to do a penis cake for a gay person, you should also refuse to do a penis cake for a heterosexual bachelorette party.

There is NO law that says a baker has to decorate a cake according to whatever the customer wants no matter what. No such law exists.

The Muslim marrying a very very young bride can claim
discrimination, just like LGBT.

A Satanist, Wiccan can also claim
religious discrimination, just like LGBT

If a baker bakes custom shaped cakes and a person
requests a penis or breast cake, they could sue
for sexual discrimination.

A Nazi could also sue for discrimination based on
discrimination against Nazi's for not making a swastika.

When people start saying one group can sue for
discrimination for "not baking a cake" or whatever,
that opens the door for all groups to be able to
sue using discrimination as a reason to sue, and most
likely win if discrimination could be proved.
Which could easily be done in my scenarios above.

For example:
I don't like Nazi's, I don't like what they stand for.
I do happen to have a deep prejudice against all Nazi's.
I would not bake a cake for a Nazi event.
That is clear and open discrimination against a
particular group of people and their beliefs.
Which would be fairly easy to prove in a court
and according to today's law, and result in a
large judgement that could run me out of business.



Oh, yes, it's not just LGBT, the picture is much broader.
It is just that, unlike the legislation, which doesn't mention
LGBT at all.
Everyone seems to think that this is only
in regard to the LGBT, how narrow minded and close
minded and what tunnel vision.

Look at the larger
picture and look at the unintended consequences of

supporting forcing people who wish to live by a set
of values/morals to hide in a closet and act ashamed
of their values/morals
and to have to pretend to approve of
something they do not, or lose their business.
In other words, all business people must conform
to the standards set by other people
or they must pretend to be someone they
are not in order to keep their job/business,
and hide who they really are
deep in a locked closet.

a reply to: grandmakdw

They want revenge for personal hurts in their lives
and to get revenge one must spread hate and
intolerance in the name of tolerance.

Like, for example, not getting tenure?

just curious.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Regarding the very very very young bride, would you refuse to bake a wedding cake for a Christian couple where the bride is very very very young? Would you refuse to bake a cake for an atheist couple with the same situation? Would you refuse to bake a cake for a black agnostic couple with the same situation? If yes, then you are not discriminating against a specific group. That's why we have non-discrimination laws. To protect specific groups that tend to get discriminated against time and again. If you would be willing to bake a cake for a Christian couple where the bride is very very young, but you refuse to bake a cake for a Muslim couple with the same situation, then that would be seen as discrimination.

And again, you do not have to make any specific decorations that offend you personally (genitalia, swastika, satanic symbols, etc.). I can't speak for other countries, but in the U.S. you do NOT. If someone tried to sue you for not doing it, trust me, they would lose.

Nazis are not a protected class any more than pedophiles, or skin heads or drug addicts or thieves. If you refused to do business with them because they were Nazis or pedophiles or skin heads or drug addicts or thieves, they would have no successful legal case against you.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Under current law anyone can demand nearly
anything of a service provider and they must
comply,
no matter how much they are repulsed
by the request or find the request offensive.

Wait...I'm confused.....

how hard is it for a business owner to say, "You know what? I can't do this cake. I'm all booked up, and have surgery that day."

??? HOW HARD is that?

One doesn't need to parade their religion around in order to legitimately turn down a customer.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: grandmakdw

Regarding the very very very young bride, would you refuse to bake a wedding cake for a Christian couple where the bride is very very very young? Would you refuse to bake a cake for an atheist couple with the same situation? Would you refuse to bake a cake for a black agnostic couple with the same situation? If yes, then you are not discriminating against a specific group. That's why we have non-discrimination laws. To protect specific groups that tend to get discriminated against time and again. If you would be willing to bake a cake for a Christian couple where the bride is very very young, but you refuse to bake a cake for a Muslim couple with the same situation, then that would be seen as discrimination.

And again, you do not have to make any specific decorations that offend you personally (genitalia, swastika, satanic symbols, etc.). I can't speak for other countries, but in the U.S. you do NOT. If someone tried to sue you for not doing it, trust me, they would lose.

Nazis are not a protected class any more than pedophiles, or skin heads or drug addicts or thieves. If you refused to do business with them because they were Nazis or pedophiles or skin heads or drug addicts or thieves, they would have no successful legal case against you.

I think you are wrong, with the current precedent of
successful legal cases
that a successful lawsuit
could be brought in these circumstances.

Forcing even an LGBT baker to bake
cakes they find offensive or against their
morals/values; as in the Nazi instance.


Once you start forcing people to do things
against their will, so as not to hurt others
feelings, well then everyone is forced to
do things against their will, if it might
hurt someones feelings.

Once you say,
hide your values and morals in a closet
and lock the door and don't let them out
to one group -
in our society, that will also apply to all
groups and all circumstances equally -
to force say a LGBT baker to bake
a Nazi themed cake for a Nazi event,
if they find the Nazi event abhorrent.

Everyone can say discrimination if it
is directed at people that one holds
prejudicial views towards.

a reply to: grandmakdw

i think you are still looking at the Micro of "Cake" when the bigger picture is this bill includes Health Services and is not limited to just GLBTQ+ people.

you keep bringing up Values and Morals but by what Judge? do "X" Values include Discrimination? if so those are bad Values

a reply to: grandmakdw

Well, you are going to have to prove me wrong with specific cases, because I have seen zero successful law suits involving a baker refusing to do cakes for Nazis. Nor have I seen any successful law suits involving any baker refusing to do a specific type of decoration.

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: grandmakdw

i think you are still looking at the Micro of "Cake" when the bigger picture is this bill includes Health Services and is not limited to just GLBTQ+ people.

you keep bringing up Values and Morals but by what Judge? do "X" Values include Discrimination? if so those are bad Values

Is it discrimination to force someone
to do something against their will?

Because you don't happen to like
the way they think?

The idea that people will refuse to treat
medically when someone is in need is
the boogie man hypothesis.

That isn't going to happen, it is a paranoid
illogical extension of the legislation
designed to scare people into submission;
and into accepting what you deem
the correct morals/values;
while telling others they must hide
who they really are in a closet because
you deem them to have morals/values
that you think are harmful to the morals/values
of society.

Your illogical extension is as likely to happen
as my Nazi example, I am fully aware of that.

But the fact that people are so anxious to make
people hide their values/morals that you and others
deem unacceptable
in a closet and keep it private and not expose others
to the values/morals you don't like;
and to punish them and make fun of them for
being the way they are;
well what does that remind you of?

a reply to: grandmakdw

But the fact that people are so anxious to make
people hide their values/morals that you and others
deem unacceptable
in a closet and keep it private and not expose others
to the values/morals you don't like;
and to punish them and make fun of them for
being the way they are;
well what does that remind you of?

I have no dog in this fight - but

payback's a bitch.