Permafrost warming in parts of Alaska is 'unbelievable'

a reply to: babybunnies

No babybunnies, the conversation we should be having right now is not whether global warming is real or not. Of course its real. Its been happening for the last 10,000 years, with us or without us.

The question we should be asking here, is this "why is god's name do you think you have the power to hold back the tide?"

We have lots of global problems. Do you enjoy knowing you paying taxes to pay reparations to less developed countries?????

Tired of Control Freaks

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
No babybunnies, the conversation we should be having right now is not whether global warming is real or not. Of course its real. Its been happening for the last 10,000 years, with us or without us.

This very similar with times when they used lead in fuel for easier transport... claim that it exist in nature by itself... and that we are not poisoning our surrounding, claim that got debunked and now we have laws that prohibit use of lead in fuel worldwide. (But we did mess bit nature, before we knew it was wrong thing to do.)

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
The question we should be asking here, is this "why is god's name do you think you have the power to hold back the tide?"

Question you should ask yourself - do I like extreme weather we experience lately or not... I know I don't.

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
We have lots of global problems. Do you enjoy knowing you paying taxes to pay reparations to less developed countries?????

Tired of Control Freaks

Because out footprint is much bigger then in those developing countries. We are doing more damage, would make sense we should pay more to fix it...

You know that not fixing it now, we will have to pay much more later, right??

a reply to: SuperFrog

Should we also then not pay reparations to the families of former slaves?

You can't prove that global warming has caused any damage in India (oh I am sure that someone can come up with some creative accounting), but we can prove that slavery existed.

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: SuperFrog

BTW what 'extreme" weather are you talking about?

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: SuperFrog

Have you also considered that the reparations that we "owe" to less developed countries is a bribe to stop them from developing and that people in these countries are dying each and every single day for lack of a stable power source?

Tired of Control Freaks

Why from your replies I have a feeling that you found yourself in pictures I posted before...

Interesting 'fresh' report: Report predicts temperatures too hot for humans in Persian Gulf

WASHINGTON — Rising global temperatures could push the sun-baked cities of the Persian Gulf across a threshold unknown since the start of civilization: the first to experience temperatures that are literally too hot for human survival.

A scientific study released Monday warns that at least five of the region’s great metropolises could see summer days that surpass the ‘‘human habitability’’ limit by the end of the century. Heat and humidity would be so high that even the healthiest people could not withstand more than a few hours outdoors.

The report, in the journal Nature Climate Change, says booming cities such Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Doha could cross the threshold if temperatures continue to rise at current rates. Not far behind is the Saudi holy city of Mecca, a destination for millions of Muslim pilgrims every year.

On the hottest days, inhabitants of those cities could experience a combination of heat and humidity so high that the human body is no longer capable of shedding the excess heat through perspiration, according to the report’s authors, a pair of scientists from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Loyola Marymount University.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Another frightening prediction to make us wet the bed at night? That means something to you?

Temperatures "could" rise...some humans "may" die

Wow - doesn't take much to frighten you

Tired of Control Freaks

Only thing that really frightens me is amount of ignorance in your posts and irony is that forum motto is to deny ignorance.

There is a dose of selfishness that follows your posts as well... had to do with your tax money being spent on something useful instead on more military...

a reply to: SuperFrog

There is a large mountain of alarmism that follows your posts.

Do you enjoy scaring yourself?

What do the words "could" "may" "possibly" "might" mean to you?

Am I wrong to be concerned on how my tax dollars are being spent? When have I ever posted 1 single line supporting the military use of taxes?

So you still haven't explained how you feel about providing $100 billion / year to less developed countries including India to stop them from developing a stable energy grid? That is part of what they are negotiating in Paris. The payout is to start in 2020 and continue every year after.

www.english.rfi.fr...

There will be no agreement at the international climate conference in Paris in December if industrialised countries do not pay the 100 billion euros needed annually to finance the transition to renewable energy in developing countries, French President Francois Hollande said Tuesday.

Tired of Control Freaks

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
There is a large mountain of alarmism that follows your posts.

Do you enjoy scaring yourself?

That is very illogical thinking. Being concerned with something is apparently scary now? Does closing your eyes help you when you afraid?? Does it really work for you??

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
What do the words "could" "may" "possibly" "might" mean to you?

With supporting data, apparently very different thing then to you. For example, scientist told us that not doing anything may result in extreme weather, and today we experience fruits of our avoiding of a problem, spending millions in insurance claims and trying to repair destroyed infrastructure...

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
Am I wrong to be concerned on how my tax dollars are being spent? When have I ever posted 1 single line supporting the military use of taxes?

No, but I did not see you object either. Science gets small fraction what military gets, never seen you post that we should invest more in science to get better data/models and be able to more closely predict future and trends. Same with NASA, that actually saw less founding with goals being removed... but we have overpriced F35 and more tanks then we need... (and to create this army, we messed with climate in big way...)

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
So you still haven't explained how you feel about providing $100 billion / year to less developed countries including India to stop them from developing a stable energy grid? That is part of what they are negotiating in Paris. The payout is to start in 2020 and continue every year after.

www.english.rfi.fr...

So, what does not make sense to you??

energydesk.greenpeace.org...

www.wri.org...

Do you see why we need renewable clean(er) energy???

And please, stop with childish assumption that because I can use my head and see not so bright future if we don't act now I am somehow scared.

Scientists have been warning about this for a long time.

Here's a russian scientist from 2006.

www.livescience.com... bon.html

The researchers estimate that if global warming continues at its current pace, about 90 percent of the carbon in yedoma permafrost could be released. Most of it would go into the atmosphere as either carbon dioxide or methane, the researchers say.

The study, led by Sergey Zimov from the Russian Academy of Sciences, is detailed in the July 15 issue of the journal Science.

The study notes that about another 500 Gt of carbon is locked away in other permafrost areas around the world, and that global warming could have similar effects on these areas as well.

Scientists estimate that permafrost makes up some 24 percent of land in the Northern Hemisphere.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Superfrog

Ok - stop with the propaganda articles stating what COULD happen IF the rise in carbon dioxide increases global temperature.

This theory has been around a long time and its predictictions have been tested and failed.

Manfred Mann made his famous hockey stick graph based on tree ring data. He forgot to mention that the data from the tree rings "divergenced" from what modern instruments were recording. If the tree ring data "diverged" from known instrument measurements, what makes you think the history that he obtained from the tree rings was accurate. He made his infamous graph but forgot to explain that all the data from the 1960s onward was in fact, instrument readings and not tree ring data. That is how he got the spike at the end of the graph.

Phil Jones of the Hadley Centre admits that he can't provide the raw data for his work to be submitted for peer review. He is not very organized and lost the data.

The IPPC using data from all sources predicted the Himilayan glaciers would be gone by 2011 - they are not!

They also predicted we were past the "tipping point" and failed to predict the "pause" in global warming (which really isn't a complete pause but it certainly wasn't predicted by any of their models.

How many times do these people have to be wrong before you start to get just a little suspicious.

As for your permafrost article - Permafrost has been melting for 10,000 years. That is why I can live in the Ontario region of Canada and still swim in the Great Lakes.

Like I said - they talk the talk (like any good snake oil salesman but they don't walk the walk)

Tired of Control Freaks

a reply to: TiredofControlFreaks


There is no 'IF' as long as continue to build coal power plants, and those are cheaper at the moment then reusable energy sources.

Manfred Mann??

What are you talking about?

Do you really think that all data and scientist worldwide have conspiracy just to get money to build some renewable energy sources in developing world???

Also, what do you think about frequency of super-storms, droughts and fires that were never recorded before, as well changes in climate, move of insects (specially bees), animals and coral due to temperature changes??

Should we all dismiss everything and hope earth fixes itself??

Sure, weather used to change without humans before, but do you honestly think we humans did not speed up changes and made them worst??

EDIT: Just got this today, pnas - article regarding exactly what we are talking here. Abstract is available for free, you will have to look somewhere else (unless you are subscribed to pnas) for article.

www.pnas.org...

Significance

One of the most concerning consequences of human-induced increases in atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations is the potential for rapid regional transitions in the climate system. Yet, despite much public awareness of how “tipping points” may be crossed, little information is available as to exactly what may be expected in the coming centuries. We assess all Earth System Models underpinning the recent 5th Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report and systematically search for evidence of abrupt changes. We do find abrupt changes in sea ice, oceanic flows, land ice, and terrestrial ecosystem response, although with little consistency among the models. A particularly large number is projected for warming levels below 2°. We discuss mechanisms and include methods to objectively classify abrupt climate change.

Key word - abrupt climate change.

a reply to: SuperFrog

And here is another possible explanation

www.salem-news.com...

NASA has been warning about it…scientific papers have been written about it…geologists have seen its traces in rock strata and ice core samples…



Now "it" is here: an unstoppable magnetic pole shift that has sped up and is causing life-threatening havoc with the world's weather.

Forget about global warming—man-made or natural—what drives planetary weather patterns is the climate and what drives the climate is the sun's magnetosphere and its electromagnetic interaction with a planet's own magnetic field.

When the field shifts, when it fluctuates, when it goes into flux and begins to become unstable anything can happen. And what normally happens is that all hell breaks loose.

Magnetic polar shifts have occurred many times in Earth's history. It's happening again now to every planet in the solar system including Earth.

The magnetic field drives weather to a significant degree and when that field starts migrating superstorms start erupting.

The superstorms have arrived

And what do climatologists know about the earth's magnetic field?

Honestly, its ridiculous

The IPPC predicts severe hurricanes, when it doesn't happen...then its weather and is different from climate change.

When it finally happens, well then the weather is the result of climate change.

Get a super cold winter with lots of snow....its due to climate change. Quick, its time to panic.

Get a mild winter with little snow....its due to climate change and the artic ice is melting. Quick its time to panic.

2014 hottest year on record, its chlimate change. Quick time to panic. But 2014 was also the coldest year on record. Weather extremes due to climate. Quick its time to panic.

I burned my toast this morning....was it also climate change messing with the toaster? Should I panic now?

Tired of Control Freaks

You honestly believe that scientific models did not take all possible elements in their research and that web site you linked is more accurate then scientific paper that will be peer reviewed?!

I was actually thinking about this this morning while listening to NPR. The story was about teachers believing that fool moon affects children behavior. Most teachers believe it does, even data and research shows it does not. (I still find it funny that someone was able to do PhD theses on this )

You can 'believe' anything you want, but nowhere with your claim you managed to address data.

Meanwhile there was more coastal flooding in the Florida Keys yesterday as a result of the full moon and what appears to be sea level rising. Kind of ridiculous how a full.moon and fresh breeze will cause that this time of the year.

Climate change is becoming do obvious that few can deny it now. Human activity is a major player, this should be obvious to anyone who can grasp basic science.

Climate in a narrow sense is usually defined as the "average weather," or more rigorously, as the statistical description in terms of the mean and variability of relevant quantities over a period ranging from months to thousands or millions of years. The classical period is 30 years, as defined by the World Meteorological Organization (WMO). These quantities are most often surface variables such as temperature, precipitation, and wind. Climate in a wider sense is the state, including a statistical description, of the climate system.[6]

To deny climate change is to deny climate itself. It is by definition always changing depending on the timespan being used to define the 'climate' being discussed.

Now if the climate is widening it's normal highs and lows concurrently that surely points to a more rapidly changing climate than we are used to.

Of course I don't suggest you panic over this, but i would advise against investing in shoreline property as a more sensible use of the data.

a reply to: jrod

No one is denying climate change. Climate changes every day, season to season, year on year, decade on decade, century to century, millinium to millinium.

Venice started flooding a couple of hundred years ago - that's climate change. Was that caused by man? Florida is located on some very porous material. If it floods - well that is just life Venus isn't it.

The hypothesis that man is causing climate change is based soley on comparing recorded temperatures and CO2. That goes back to about the 1950s. Choose another starting point and you will be able to prove that temperatures are DECREASING.

Is climate changing more rapidly - well that depends again on what you compare it to. We have found mammoths frozen in ice with green matter still in its mouth. Is the climate changing as rapidly as it did then?

Tired of Control Freaks

originally posted by: TiredofControlFreaks
a reply to: jrod

Venice started flooding a couple of hundred years ago - that's climate change. Was that caused by man? Florida is located on some very porous material. If it floods - well that is just life Venus isn't it.

Tired of Control Freaks

You are aware that Venice is flooding not only because of rise of water level, but because of sinking foundation as well??

www.livescience.com...

Thank you for demonstration what grasping at straws means...

a reply to: SuperFrog

Let's not forget the Dunning-Krueger effect as well.

A smart scientist will second guys his work, instruments, calibration, ect.. To someone who does not understand the scientific process, this uncertainty can be seen as a weakness or something used to cast doubt on the actual science.

On here it is clear that those who deny the anthropogenic role in climate change do not second guess their reasoning and are arrogantly certain they are right, often because of petty political differences( the belief this is all a liberal agenda to destroy freedom).

Dunning-Krueger effect going on here for sure.