Ole Miss Students Vote To Remove Confederate Symbol From Campus

a reply to: DBCowboy

"I've never seen a more self-absorbed generation. Maybe they can do selfies of themselves taking the flag down."

Oh, of course they will. Selfies are today, what handing your Polaroid to someone and asking them to take your pic, used to be.

As for the old battle flag coming down? It was their call, their choice so... not a problem. The bigger question is indeed whether taking it down will make them feel like they have defeated an age-old malevolence that has hung about in this nation since... day one. Moreover, will old and established regional stereotyping carry on?

Oh... and should someday the school students vote to return what has now been taken down, will it be met with the same acceptance? Or... is this a one-way street?

a reply to: redoubt

Oh... and should someday the school students vote to return what has now been taken down, will it be met with the same acceptance?

Accepted as a Right?

Or accepted as the right thing to do?


Two separate issues and not necessarily necessary to combine both.


If people decide to reinstate the flag, they've every Right to do so...

Will it be accepted as moving forward? Why should it be.

a reply to: redoubt
Interesting questions!

I doubt the students feel that an age-old malevolence has been "defeated", rather that they've taken a small step toward its eventual suppression, if not complete defeat. I'm sure stereotyping will continue, but taking small steps is how real change happens.

I would bet that this is a one-way street. Someone would have to fight pretty hard to come up with a logical reason to put up a symbol that many see as racist. But it's certainly not impossible.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

"If people decide to reinstate the flag, they've every Right to do so...
Will it be accepted as moving forward? Why should it be."

This nation has divided itself down so many avenues that the concept of moving 'forward' in one sector may well be seen like an jumping up and down in a septic tank on Sunday in another.

Symbols are really just that; items that have positive or negative values placed upon them not because of what they do, but because of what people do who are connected to them by other people as if by an umbilical cord.

We are a shallow species.

I think they should keep the flag up. After all, this is not just some Confederate Battle Flag flying. That symbol is on the flag, but it is not the flag itself. It is the State Flag. I hope they don't get offended if they happen to visit their Capital. It flies right out front with the United States Flag.


I think they would be better off petitioning their State Legislature to change the flag. They are voting age after all.

As long as they gladly petition and receive money from State, they should respectfully fly it next to the US Flag. Take for instance FY 2009 they gladly received almost $90 million from the state.

University of Southern Mississippi (USM) 89,753,923

Link

And every year they petition for more money from the Government who flies that flag.

a reply to: redoubt

This is not about the McDonalds Arch or the Adidas Stripes...


It's a flag designed by a white supremacist with the intention of symbolising and representing white supremacy...
It later represented traitors to the union who murdered decent Americans fighting for equal rights...
Later it represented the infamous lynch mob the KKK...

No amount of Southern Pride changes that into a positive symbol.

How can southern pride symbolism be worthy of recognition but when it's what it truly symbolises it's PC history deleting division?

Riddle me that if you choose...



We will agree to disagree, I think.

originally posted by: redoubt
Symbols are really just that; items that have positive or negative values placed upon them not because of what they do, but because of what people do who are connected to them by other people as if by an umbilical cord.

Agreed. ANY flag, including the stars and stripes, is just a symbol.

a reply to: harvestdog

Changing the state flag has been an item for many years. Maybe this it the school student body's way of protesting the state flag.

The school administrators have to agree to take it down, so they may experience some push-back there. It will be interesting to watch.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

My only insertion here would be... if someone who had never seen either a swastika or an old Confederate flag, or knew any of either's history, were to suddenly come upon them, all alone, in a lonely spot in the middle of the night... what would happen?

These symbols are what we choose them to be.

If I may... we shouldn't forget that the Rome Coliseum was built by slaves and was home to the killings of untold numbers of people over several centuries.
Do we close it? Tear it down?
And what about the pyramids of Egypt? There are many who still say that slave labor was used in their building.

History is... or at least, should be, a lesson so we don't repeat mistakes. But, our species has a terrible habit of repeating its worst mistakes over and over.

Will removing a flag or a swastika assure that our future is secure from tyranny?
One can only hope

a reply to: redoubt

I'd say it's apples and oranges, redoubt...


The artistry and architecture that those slaves showed in building such giant monoliths is not the same as embroidery.



I see one as a feat of the ingenuity of slaves and the other as an opressive symbol they had no part in creating...


Maybe it's just me, but when I see the pyramids and the coliseum I am in awe of how brilliant those slaves were...

When I see the confederate flag I think of people being hung because their skin was a different colour.


So again, apples and oranges, in my own opinion.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
Can someone tell me what the big deal is? College students usually aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, so what they do is small compared to the world itself. They can take down the flag, they can remove it from campus. Heck, they can eliminate all references from their curriculum for all I care.

I've never seen a more self-absorbed generation. Maybe they can do selfies of themselves taking the flag down.

originally posted by: HighDesertPatriot
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Students always make the best, informed decisions, don't they? So smart, they are.

Right then. Obviously if you're looking for smart people with long histories of making good decisions, trailer parks are where you'll find them:



As for the "most self-absorbed generation" comment. Really? More self-absorbed than say white Southerners, fighting tooth and nail to preserve the legality of oppression of non-whites, who made Confederate iconography more popular than it had been at any point since the end of the Civil War? Luminaries of altruism for sure.

a reply to: theantediluvian

"Obviously if you're looking for smart people with long histories of making good decisions, trailer parks are where you'll find them"
...

"More self-absorbed than say white Southerners, fighting tooth and nail to preserve the legality of oppression of non-whites, who made Confederate iconography more popular than it had been at any point since the end of the Civil War?"

So, Caucasian people living in the south are:
A. Trailer park trash
B. Racists

Ahhh, stereotyping at its finest!

a reply to: redoubt

Spare me. I'm white and I grew up in rural Georgia not half an hour from Alabama.

What I was actually implying was that the people in the photo were likely trailer park residents. I'll stand by that comment and furthermore state that in my experience, support for Confederate iconography is strongest among the poor and ignorant who are more likely to turn to things like racial identity as a source of pride.

As for the white Southerners fighting tooth and nail to preserve the oppression of non-whites, are you saying that I'm wrong? You're from Alabama, I'm sure you're familiar with George Wallace. He won the 1962 election with 96% of the vote. When he took the oath of office, he took it standing on gold star that marked the spot where Jefferson Davis was sworn in. Should I remind you of his speech?

Are you denying that a clear majority of white Southerners supported Jim Crow laws/segregation/etc?

a reply to: theantediluvian

- "You're from Alabama, I'm sure you're familiar with George Wallace."
I live in Alabama, I'm not FROM Alabama.

- "When he took the oath of office, he took it standing on gold star that marked the spot where Jefferson Davis was sworn in. Should I remind you of his speech?"
Remind away as you choose but let me remind you that this was over a half-century ago.

- "Are you denying that a clear majority of white Southerners supported Jim Crow laws/segregation/etc?"
Yesterday, in 1962? No.
Today, in 2015? Yes.

If the battle flag has come to represent racism then I support taking it down. If it always represented racism: same.

But I do wonder, did it actually represent racism or did it just represent the bravery soldiers showed in war? I imagine the war was more than just about the slave owners, it was about the ability to govern themselves.

I think the same about the Nazi's. I think there were other reasons the war happened, not just because they hated Jews. If I recall, World War I involved Germany (and many other nations across the world) but at the end of it Germany was heavily sanctioned. Hitler actually was in that war and survived because British solider spared him. The sanctions did not stop his rise to power. But anyway, if we assume racism was the only reason Germany went to war, I don't think we'll understand war--IMHO.

a reply to: jonnywhite

"... did it actually represent racism or did it just represent the bravery soldiers showed in war? I imagine the war was more than just about the slave owners, it was about losing the ability to govern themselves."

The US Civil War was fought over many issues but, following Gettysburg; the first big battle the North clearly won, it swung focus to slavery. In Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley, he clearly stated that he could go either way on the subject so long as it brought victory.

On the flip, the South had the chance to end this evil practice. England actually, though quietly, suggested that it might support the Confederacy but the slavery had to end. Period. However, greed and money was then as it is today; an avenue to control government and that's what it did. The plantation owners were just not going to allow it.

Had slavery been abolished then the South would have had the upper moral hand for breaking away. Unfortunately, they chose not to and as such, deserved the beating they took.

a reply to: redoubt

I live in Alabama, I'm not FROM Alabama.

*rolls eyes* Are you implying that there's something wrong with being from Alabama? (see how that works?)

Remind away as you choose but let me remind you that this was over a half-century ago.

Today I have stood, where once Jefferson Davis stood, and took an oath to my people. It is very appropriate then that from this Cradle of the Confederacy, this very Heart of the Great Anglo-Saxon Southland, that today we sound the drum for freedom as have our generations of forebears before us done, time and time again through history. Let us rise to the call of freedomloving blood that is in us and send our answer to the tyranny that clanks its chains upon the South. In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny . . . and I say . . . segregation today . . . segregation tomorrow . . . segregation forever.

full transcript (PDF)

Yesterday, in 1962? No. Today, in 2015? Yes.

So then what's wrong with my statement which was CLEARLY about past generations? In your haste to criticize my remarks, did you overlook the fact that I was drawing a contrast between a modern generation of Southerners (represented in this case by students at Ole Miss) and previous generations of Southerners (in this case, specifically white members of said generations). I thought that it was fairly obvious who I was speaking about but perhaps the glaring context clues were insufficient? Here's what I said (new bold for emphasis):

More self-absorbed than say white Southerners, fighting tooth and nail to preserve the legality of oppression of non-whites, who made Confederate iconography more popular than it had been at any point since the end of the Civil War?

While Confederate iconography never disappeared, it certainly enjoyed renewed vigor as a direct response to the Civil Rights movement.

Now that I've clarified my original statements, is there anything else about them that you take issue with?

a reply to: redoubt
Thanks. My intentions are honest. I'm not a racist supporter at all, I just want an accurate picture of the past. I've known a couple people who were in fact racist towards african americans and they also lived in the south for a number of years. This led me to believe they adopted those hatreds while living there--to fit in? But it also taught me they're much more than their racism. This, along with other things I've encountered in life, leads me to believe the past wars weren't just based on racism either, just as people aren't solely defined by a single prejudice or hatred.

In my homestate there's not a culture of racism like in the south, but I think it's increasingly hard to find places like that even in the south. There're still pockets of racism even in university settings, of all places, but this goes for anywhere really--north or south. Racism is far from dead, but it's not the extreme cultural feature it used to be. Maybe 55 years ago segregation was still almost everwhere. Despite us outlawing slavery during/after the civil war, racism was still a strong cultural element until the civil rights movement in the mid 20th century (and the famous Martin Luther King which I have affixed to my wall a quote from him).

a reply to: theantediluvian

Holy Mother of Maalox...

"*rolls eyes* Are you implying that there's something wrong with being from Alabama? (see how that works?)"
Yup, how it works: Making assumptions. Assume as you choose

"So then what's wrong with my statement which was CLEARLY about past generations?"
History is history. We should learn from it.
Today is today. We should live it.

"Now that I've clarified my original statements, is there anything else about them that you take issue with?"
I never took 'issue' with any of them.
Simply replied to make sure you knew where I was coming from: Today... not Yesterday.

Why are you so angry?

a reply to: redoubt

South Carolina was the first state to secede. Its secession followed the election of Lincoln by a month. Here's the first paragraph of Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.

and here's a few from near the end:

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

It really doesn't matter how Lincoln felt in his heart of hearts before, during or after the Civil War; secession was a direct response to the election of Lincoln and the rightly perceived threat to the institution of slavery. The writing was on the wall, the gig was up, etc etc. There were certainly all sorts of contributing factors but without slavery there would have been no Confederacy and therefore no Civil War.

If the student body voted to remove it... great fine, democracy in action..

If the student council voted for it... meh whatever meaningless platitude from wanna be politicians.