Creationism SHOULD be taught in school. ( alongside science theories! )

a reply to: AshOnMyTomatoes

And that is appropriate. I don't think religion has a place, other than in a form of studying culture, mythology, etc.

I'm not talking about religion..I'm talking about a widely held belief on how the universe was created.

Scientists can change their beliefs in a moment, and will once again be revered as truth knowers

But to teach about a belief widely held by a huge amount of the population, one that stays constant, is a bad thing?

I just want to give the kids options. Not indoctrinate them, or have them follow a specific religion.

"scientists believe - - - - for the moment, based on evidence"
"many people believe a higher being created the universe, based on religious or spiritual beliefs. "

The only fact? Neither the scientists, nor the people can claim they have found the factual way the universe was created. To teach them only one side.. Is to teach them only one thing that is not, in essence, proven.

Agreed OP. Creationism should be taught in public schools. However, I choose the Chelan Creation Myth. This I want taught to my children beside evolution.

Long, long ago, the Creator, the Great Chief Above, made the world. Then he made the animals and the birds and gave them their names -- Coyote, Grizzly Bear, Deer, Fox, Eagle, the four Wolf Brothers, Magpie, Bluejay, Hummingbird, and all the others. When he had finished his work, the Creator called the animal people to him. "I am going to leave you," he said. "But I will come back. When I come again, I will make human beings. They will be in charge of you." The Great Chief returned to his home in the sky, and the animal people scattered to all parts of the world.

After twelve moons, the animal people gathered to meet the Creator as he had directed. Some of them had complaints. Bluejay, Meadowlark, and Coyote did not like their names. Each of them asked to be some other creature. "No," said the Creator. "I have given you your names. There is no change. My word is law.

"Because you have tried to change my law, I will not make the human being this time. Because you have disobeyed me, you have soiled what I brought with me. I planned to change it into a human being. Instead, I will put it in water to be washed for many moons and many snows, until it is clean again."

Then he took something from his right side and put it in the river. It swam, and the Creator named it Beaver. "Now I will give you another law," said the Great Chief Above.

"The one of you who keeps strong and good will take Beaver from the water some day and make it into a human being. I will tell you now what to do. Divide Beaver into twelve parts. Take each part to a different place and breathe into it your own breath. Wake it up. It will be a human being with your breath. Give it half of your power and tell it what to do. Today I am giving my power to one of you. He will have it as long as he is good." When the Creator had finished speaking, all the creatures started for their homes -- all except Coyote. The Great Chief had a special word for Coyote.

"You are to be head of all the creatures, Coyote. You are a power just like me now, and I will help you do your work. Soon the creatures and all the other things I have made will become bad. They will fight and will eat each other. It is your duty to keep them as peaceful as you can. "When you have finished your work, we will meet again, in this land toward the east. If you have been good, if you tell the truth and obey me, you can make the human being from Beaver. If you have done wrong, someone else will make him." Then the Creator went away.

It happened as the Creator had foretold. Everywhere the things he had created did wrong. The mountains swallowed the creatures. The winds blew them away. Coyote stopped the mountains, stopped the winds, and rescued the creatures. One winter, after North Wind had killed many people, Coyote made a law for him: "Hereafter you can kill only those who make fun of you."

Everywhere Coyote went, he made the world better for the animal people and better for the human beings yet to be created. When he had finished his work, he knew that it was time to meet the Creator again. Coyote thought that he had been good, that he would be the one to make the first human being. But he was mistaken. He thought that he had as much power as the Creator. So he tried, a second time, to change the laws of the Great Chief Above.

"Some other creature will make the human being," the Creator told Coyote. "I shall take you out into the ocean and give you a place to stay for all time." So Coyote walked far out across the water to an island. There the Creator stood waiting for him, beside the house he had made. Inside the house on the west side stood a black suit of clothes. On the other side hung a white suit. "Coyote, you are to wear this black suit for six months," said the Creator. "Then the weather will be cold and dreary. Take off the black suit and wear the white suit. Then there will be summer, and everything will grow. I will give you my power not to grow old. You will live here forever and forever."

Coyote stayed there, out in the ocean, and the four Wolf brothers took his place as the head of all the animal people. Youngest Wolf Brother was strong and good and clever. Oldest Wolf Brother was worthless. So the Creator gave Youngest Brother the power to take Beaver from the water. One morning Oldest Wolf Brother said to Youngest Brother, "I want you to kill Beaver. I want his tooth for a knife."

"Oh, no!" exclaimed Second and Third Brothers. "Beaver is too strong for Youngest Brother." But Youngest Wolf said to his brothers, "Make four spears. For Oldest Brother, make a spear with four forks. For me, make a spear with one fork. Make a two-forked spear and a three-forked spear for yourselves. I will try my best to get Beaver, so that we can kill him."

All the animal persons had seen Beaver and his home. They knew where he lived. They knew what a big creature he was. His family of young beavers lived with him. The animal persons were afraid that Youngest Wolf Brother would fail to capture Beaver and would fail to make the human being. Second and Third Wolf Brothers also were afraid. "I fear we will lose Youngest Brother," they said to each other. But they made the four spears he had asked for.

At dusk, the Wolf brothers tore down the dam at the beavers' home, and all the little beavers ran out. About midnight, the larger beavers ran out. They were so many, and they made so much noise, that they sounded like thunder. Then Big Beaver ran out, the one the Creator had put into the water to become clean.

"Let's quit!" said Oldest Wolf Brother, for he was afraid. "Let's not try to kill him."

"No!" said Youngest Brother. "I will not stop."

Oldest Wolf Brother fell down. Third Brother fell down. Second Brother fell down. Lightning flashed. The beavers still sounded like thunder. Youngest Brother took the four-forked spear and tried to strike Big Beaver with it. It broke. He used the three-forked spear. It broke. He used the two-forked spear. It broke. Then he took his own one-forked spear. It did not break. It pierced the skin of Big Beaver and stayed there. Out of the lake, down the creek, and down Big River, Beaver swam, dragging Youngest Brother after it.

Youngest Wolf called to his brothers, "You stay here. If I do not return with Beaver in three days, you will know that I am dead." Three days later, all the animal persons gathered on a level place at the foot of the mountain. Soon they saw Youngest Brother coming. He had killed Beaver and was carrying it. "You remember that the Creator told us to cut it into twelve pieces," said Youngest Brother to the animal people. But he could divide it into only eleven pieces.

Then he gave directions. "Fox, you are a good runner. Hummingbird and Horsefly, you can fly fast. Take this piece of Beaver flesh over to that place and wake it up. Give it your breath." Youngest Brother gave other pieces to other animal people and told them where to go. They took the liver to Clearwater River, and it became the Nez Perce Indians. They took the heart across the mountains, and it became the Methow Indians. Other parts became the Spokane people, the Lake people, the Flathead people. Each of the eleven pieces became a different tribe....

a reply to: TzarChasm

You can change my mind by showing me that the science of how to universe was created is confirmed, and should be seen as fact, rather than a belief itself.

If you Google how the universe was created, you get many, many answers - even differing in the science community.

So I have a question for everyone, which version should we be teaching in schools?

Big bang?
Steady state?
Oscillating universe?
Eternal inflation?
Bulk universe?

Or one of the many other beliefs that some scientists hold?

Realize some of these ideas are based on quantum theories and not at all proven by anything factual, but by a number of guesses, or, better put, beliefs.

a reply to: deadlyhope

But you want to teach a belief build on a belief.
While science is a belief build on evidence.
What about all the critical thinkers not coming from a religious household? And you know that this is pretty much an US only problem? everywhere else is the discussion to end religious lessons alltogether and you want to jump back in school evolution for hundred years?
Why not stop teaching the alphabet, gives the little ones funny ideas with books and stuff...

And why is it a problem to teach them: we don't know, yet?

a reply to: amazing

See while your attempt at sattire is amusing, maybe, you didn't even read through the posts, nor explain why the beliefs of the scientists are more important than that of the majority?

Google how the universe was created, there's no real answer! Just a bunch of guesses, some even based on quantum physics, so it's guesses built on top of guesses, and are not consistent. Why are these inconsistencies so widely excused and accepted by those that oppose a universe created by a higher being?

At least the sentence "the universe was created by a higher being" is consistent. Each religion will choose a timeline or method, but I'm not wanting to include religion. Just that sentence, in essence. It's consistent, and just as proven, or well, lack thereof as many theories scientists believe in.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: deadlyhope

If creationism should be taught in our schools then so should mysticism.

And Evolution should be taught in Sunday Schools.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: amazing

See while your attempt at sattire is amusing, maybe, you didn't even read through the posts, nor explain why the beliefs of the scientists are more important than that of the majority?

Google how the universe was created, there's no real answer! Just a bunch of guesses, some even based on quantum physics, so it's guesses built on top of guesses, and are not consistent. Why are these inconsistencies so widely excused and accepted by those that oppose a universe created by a higher being?

At least the sentence "the universe was created by a higher being" is consistent. Each religion will choose a timeline or method, but I'm not wanting to include religion. Just that sentence, in essence. It's consistent, and just as proven, or well, lack thereof as many theories scientists believe in.

But that's the problem. Most, in the US, when talking about Creationism will want it to be full on Genesis/Christianity. If I am not a Christian and my Children are not Christians either, that's a big problem. I don't want them indoctrinated with a religion I don't believe in. It would be like someone pushing Scientology on School Children.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: Krazysh0t

A theory is a theory

Wrong. Scientific Theory comes from the process of scientific method. It is tested and confirmed through observation and experiments.

A non-scientific theory is just a thought or idea. No process, no testing or confirmation. No observation or experiments.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
I never mentioned the Bible. I think the Bible should be left out of Schools.

The idea of creation comes directly from religion! For you to try to separate the two is disingenuous.

a reply to: amazing

Agreed OP. Creationism should be taught in public schools. However, I choose the Chelan Creation Myth. This I want taught to my children beside evolution.

We know how to deal with this type of heresy eh, deadly hope?

europeanhistory.boisestate.edu...

a reply to: MotherMayEye

It's no problem at all to teach them "we don't know, yet"

That's what I'm basically advocating!

"we don't know, but here's the most widely held beliefs"

What branches off that sentence, is what I am advocating.

Some science theories turn into laws, because it's factual, proven, tested, over with.

The creation of th universe? There's theories that have been around longer than others, but even the big bang theory, which I was taught in school, is losing traction because there's now many, many theories - yes, some built on guesses, on beliefs, on ideas, on "what ifs" - then they find more evidence, or collaborate and piece together ideas, and maybe one day we will have a "law of the creation of the universe" and all debate can end.

Until that time? I simply wonder why we revere the scientists changing, inconsistent, even differing ideas and beliefs and theories and guesses, and we don't at least use the consistent sentence "the earth might have been created by a supreme being"

a reply to: deadlyhope

It's clear you don't know what the scientific definition of a theory is. If you'd bother to actually look it up and understand it, you'd understand why you are getting such resistance to your thread idea here.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

So you don't believe spiritual people, or deists could believe in a higher being without religion/secularism directly being involved?

No creation of the universe has been confirmed. Please link if I am wrong.

And I very much like the scientific method - the aspects of evolution that have been proven, for instance, very much should be taught in school as pure fact, and not a theory, and the right wing conservatives can back off from it. Facts are facts. The creation of the universe is still just a belief, even by the smartest scientists.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Creationism is not saying we don't know yet. So i understood you wrong and you think it should be taught how many different theories there are?

a reply to: deadlyhope

The evidence backs up old earth, there is little to none that backs up creation.

originally posted by: deadlyhope

The creation of th universe? There's theories that have been around longer than others, but even the big bang theory, which I was taught in school, is losing traction because there's now many, many theories - yes, some built on guesses, on beliefs, on ideas, on "what ifs" - then they find more evidence, or collaborate and piece together ideas, and maybe one day we will have a "law of the creation of the universe" and all debate can end.

This is completely untrue. The Big Bang Theory isn't losing traction among scientists. You've said it twice now (no proof of this assertion presented though). The BBT is really the only accepted theory about the origin of time space.

You really are demonstrating an ignorance for science in this thread. You don't fully understand the theories you are contesting and trying to falsely elevate ideas that have no scientific traction to the same level as these theories (which has NUMEROUS amounts of evidence behind them).

a reply to: deadeyedick
What religions creation theory do we teach. They are all pretty wacky

I wonder if the OP feels the same way about the THEORY of Gravity?

Hopefully he'll just float the # away.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Should we also teach that we have alien origins? That aliens came here and started everything?
How about that the earth is only 2000 years old?
Should we teach that it's flat?

Or maybe you should just read up on scientific theory.

a reply to: deadlyhope

The simple solution, dont teach our children any of it. Leave it up to parents and if children want to further study they can take a college course.

The Big Bang, Abiogenesis, Evolution from single cell to man, Age of the Universe, Age of Earth, Geological Columns, Size of the Cosmos, Distance of Stars. - All are pseudo-science, none of these deserve the term scientific theory.

In all of the above we are seriously lacking anything that can be considered proof. Many of the above actually have large holes that must be filled in by imagination and assumptions.

Why don't we simply teach our kids science, the kind they can reproduce through experiments using the scientific method. This way they will understand the difference between scientific theory and imagination and assumptions.

Eliminate the religion of pseudo-science from the textbooks so that children who don't agree with the religion of pseudo-science are inspired to be scientists and not ridiculed for having a different imagination about how the unproven came into being.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Definition - As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena. Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts.

The science community does not have a general consensus on the creation of the universe. Many theories are guesses built on beliefs built on top of other theories.

I fully admit I could be wrong, and have not researched extensively enough. If anyone has a link showing me that there's only one widely accepted theory in the science community on how the universe came about, and how that theory uses laws and consistent theories combined to explain, I will back down.

In the meantime, I debate further. There's far too many theories within the scientific community, so many built on different premises, even contradicting premises. One theory is that everything always existed, one is that everything spontaneously existed. There's no general consensus I can find, no eloquence, no consistency. Just one group of scientists beliefs, vs another's.