Nationalised health care

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
Not a saint vs sinner issue. There are consequences to your health on many levels. We know this. There is no question that over eating, excessive drinking, smoking, drug use, irresponsible sex, and so on has major consequences. This is about knowing and doing it anyway and expecting to have others pay for it. Don't care how you choose to live...If your choices are leading to issues, the problem isn't who should pay, the issue is someone making piss poor choices knowing the end result, doing it anyway and then acting like a bank expecting a bailout. No sympathy nor willingness to help people who constantly make poor choices.

Literally every choice you make in your life has negative consequences for your health. If you run to burn calories you're ruining your knees. If you drink a glass of red wine you're lowering heart disease while harming your liver. Drinking milk is helping your bones but giving you diabetes. It's all a percentages game, reducing your risk in one area increases your risk in another. That means that the only possible outcome from your line of thinking is no one gets any health care at all unless it's 100% out of pocket, even insurance is just paying for the poor choices of others.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
Not a saint vs sinner issue. There are consequences to your health on many levels. We know this. There is no question that over eating, excessive drinking, smoking, drug use, irresponsible sex, and so on has major consequences. This is about knowing and doing it anyway and expecting to have others pay for it. Don't care how you choose to live...If your choices are leading to issues, the problem isn't who should pay, the issue is someone making piss poor choices knowing the end result, doing it anyway and then acting like a bank expecting a bailout. No sympathy nor willingness to help people who constantly make poor choices.

Literally every choice you make in your life has negative consequences for your health. If you run to burn calories you're ruining your knees. If you drink a glass of red wine you're lowering heart disease while harming your liver. Drinking milk is helping your bones but giving you diabetes. It's all a percentages game, reducing your risk in one area increases your risk in another. That means that the only possible outcome from your line of thinking is no one gets any health care at all unless it's 100% out of pocket, even insurance is just paying for the poor choices of others.

Most false statement I have ever seen. You know overeating leads to obesity and a ton of issues. Excessive drinking, drugs, smoking, not bagging it up during sex and so on. Playing percentages is one thing. Pissing away your health completely different and any 9 year old knows this

a reply to: [post=19941254]Aazadan[/post
]
The use of generic drugs does not mean that there is a patent infringement. If a drug has a recognised patent in the UK it is protected and US companies would have legal options to block any infringements. Patent law differs between the countries obviously but US drugs would have the same protection as domestic or european ones.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Thank you for your reply NightSkye

originally posted by: ketsuko

And you will never understand that "pulling together" in a herd means that the weak or the sick can be sacrificed to the good of the many.

I hope you noticed I was being sarcastic in my reply to ketsuko?
The manner in which we define "weak and sick" is never objective.

[quote]I am afraid that I have to agree with you.

I hope that is a "good" fear?

You see, most people, especially in America, fear dying. It is not accepted as a part of the process of living

In line with the OP' thread, so we don't stray off topic,I will relate a little more.
In this fabulous Scandinavian country, my Mother although recovering cancer had major complications. For seventeen years she was in and out of the hospital. I grew up with her on the wards. it was a welcoming place. her second home, and mine.
In her last months I was there daily, and her last days I never left her side.
No one told me to leave, it was our time, there was no mention of any expense.
The only time was I opposed was when I requested more morphine, the nurse kindly said if we gave her more she would die.
Nothing but compassion, from all the staff.
I sang for her, slept with her, all who visited spoke to her in the most wonderful way.
It took days. Days I could never trade.
Would we get this here in the US. with out money? Or a debt to pay? NO

From the time we take our first breath, we start down the path to the time we will take our last. The terror of dying is what projects so many towards life above all cost, mentality.

no matter how much their children proclaim, “We love them”, you can see the resentment. They don’t have the time, the money, or the space, to care for mom and dad at home, so it should be the government’s responsibility. “My mother/father paid into the government their entire lives!” “It is the government’s [responsibility] to take care of them now that they can’t take care of themselves! “

In that Scandinavian country these same thing occurred , but I can only speak for my self, and the system is different.
After my Mother passed, I was offered a care facility where both my Dad and I could live. He refused but we would still receive help from the available facilities. They never pushed but they where there when you needed them.
He didn't want any help and I had to respect that.
I took care of him, worked a third shift job, so I could be at home in the day time.
I stayed with Dad until he died in hospital one year three months later of a broken spirit, he couldn't live without mom.
No debt , that is a civilized country.

I have sat with patients that have begged their family, I mean people in their hundreds, asking their family to please leave them alone and let them die in peace.

Why are we so terrified of passing over?
If I had the choice to hold the hand of a loved one and just go I would grasp that chance.
Hold me, salute me.
WIS

a reply to: SprocketUK

Geez man you are lucky. I was hit by a drunk driver going 71mph with no insurance. They fixed me up with a 57k bill after my insurance paid but won't cover the missing teeth or fronts of my upper and lower mandible, even though my doctor wrote three letters of medical necessity. Hospital won't either and I've given up allll my money I'm #ed I wish I lived in the UK. I wonder if I moved there if they would take care of me?

I live in Norway and we have socialized medical care. Im not trying to judge or educate here, just giving my personal opinion. I took part of my masters degree in the US, and had many interesting conversations about this issue while being in America.

My experience is that, although finding common grounds and agreeing upon that either way (private or social) has it`s benefits, the fundamental way of thinking about how medical care should be is very different based on what system you are brought up with. I personally think the biggest problem with privatized systems is that once it has a foothold and can generate the absurd amount of revenue it does, you have big problems trying to reverse things when they get out of hand. for example I think 10K pr night for observation in a US hospital is out of line.

Yes, we pay a lot of taxes over here, but it`s for the good of all and i`m happy to do it. If something happens to me i know I`ll be taken good care of. Now, that being said we have private hospitals and such here too, but as an option. I dont need to get a medical insurance, but i could - if i wanted to bypass the short waiting line that potentially could arise, and have a single room no matter what. For me, all tough I can afford it, this is not an option. This is based on principle. I have such faith and strong belive in that equality, especially in the health department is key and should be available for all no matter what income or status you have.

a reply to: SprocketUK


I get so tired of these types of things.

First, in order to truly compare the US to Europe, you would have to combine ALL of western Europe in you study to get close to the landmass and population you are comparing. Whether it be gun control and crime or medical issues.

Second, Does everybody really believe we just leave injured people lay on the side of the road because they don't have an insurance card? EVERY county has a local hospital that can be used by anyone, yes they try to get insurance cards and will bill you if you don't have the money. They even work with MANY non profit and charity orgs to help cover the bills after. It is LAW that ANY hospital MUST treat you in the event of a life or death issue, true they may ship you off to the local county hospital once your not in danger of dying. I lived in the US for many years and have yet seen a pregnant woman have her baby on the side of the road in the dirt. (which I have seen overseas by the way.)

Yes our medical system was messed up before and needed to be fixed. But the liberals painted a big picture for the public and for those overseas that is not the whole truth and most bought it hook line and sinker.

a reply to: dismanrc

the problem is that prenatal care for the pregnant lady is just as, maybe more important, than delivering the baby...
and for that, well, the hospital er isn't obligated to provide, since it's not an emergency situation. and by, forcing people to go to the er instead of a primary caregiver, you are saying that you think that generally higher paid staff which has been trained to deal with emergency situations to treat non-emergency treatments. regardless of who pays for this treatment, weather it be the patient through billing, a charity group, or if it's written off as a loss for the hospital, the sum charged for that care will be higher, and so, it will drive up total cost of healthcare in the country.

also, not getting the proper prenatal care will increase the chances of premature birth, birth defects, still births, and maternal deaths....
all of which costs a heck of alot more than the prenatal care would.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
Most false statement I have ever seen. You know overeating leads to obesity and a ton of issues. Excessive drinking, drugs, smoking, not bagging it up during sex and so on. Playing percentages is one thing. Pissing away your health completely different and any 9 year old knows this

So what's the cut off? How many times can you eat at McDonalds before it's why you end up obese and with diabetes? If they go once a month do you still have sympathy? Once a year? Once in their life? What's the cutoff? You throw around terms like excessive but you aren't defining them at all. At what point is health care for society no longer an obligation?

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: dismanrc

the problem is that prenatal care for the pregnant lady is just as, maybe more important, than delivering the baby...
and for that, well, the hospital er isn't obligated to provide, since it's not an emergency situation. and by, forcing people to go to the er instead of a primary caregiver, you are saying that you think that generally higher paid staff which has been trained to deal with emergency situations to treat non-emergency treatments. regardless of who pays for this treatment, weather it be the patient through billing, a charity group, or if it's written off as a loss for the hospital, the sum charged for that care will be higher, and so, it will drive up total cost of healthcare in the country.

also, not getting the proper prenatal care will increase the chances of premature birth, birth defects, still births, and maternal deaths....
all of which costs a heck of alot more than the prenatal care would.

My sister is a RN that specilizes in mother baby.

There are tons of programs available, many at no cost. All they have to do is ask.

That is one of the big problems she has is getting people to actually ask to be enrolled in any of these programs.

All she can do is offer.

a reply to: dismanrc

okay, what about the lower middle income asthmatic, any programs out there to help him with the purchase of that $100 or more inhaler? give me a link to one.

a reply to: maplecustom

Thanks for the insight from your perspective having seen and experiencing both.


A couple of questions about your system:

1. Medicine : is the individual 100% responsible to pay for their medicines and treatments or is that covered by the gov't?

2. Middleman: Does the basic everyone covered healthcare plan involve privatised insurance corporations at all or does the state take the role of insurance companies?

My own personal experience is that Obamacare has made things drastically more expensive with less coverage.
I remember just 15 short years ago when my younger son was born. My entire out of pocket costs for my wife's pre-natal coverage and his birth (by c-section nonetheless) was a $50 co-pay. I had good coverage with United Healthcare, and my portion of the costs for family coverage were under $300 per month.

Prior to the ACA act, I was paying about $450 for a family coverage plan since my employer didn't offer insurance. It wasn't the greatest plan, but I had decent deductibles, co-pays and reasonable max out of pocket expenses. Out of pocket costs were probably under $1,000 per year...mostly for co-pays.

Once ACA kicked in, my plan no longer met the minimums (who cares that it worked for my family), and my monthly premium rates went up 68% this past January (I even created a thread complaining about it). To top it off, my individual max out of pocket is $3500 per person, for the pleasure of then having a 20% co-pay. My wife wanted to have a procedure done in order to regulate excessive monthly cycles, but the costs would have been astronomical and have to have been paid out of pocket.

I don't claim to have the answer to solve all the healthcare woes in the US, but to be paying more for less coverage is definitely a step in the wrong direction. I can only imagine what the next rate increase will be this coming January. It may make the penalty option start looking more attractive...

originally posted by: amazing
In the US we have nationalized Healthcare already, so to speak.

If you're dying, you can go to a hospital, they have to treat you and save you. You have the flu, you can go to the emergency room and eventually they will see you. they have to. Who pays for his care? Federal Government subsidizes/pays hospitals for this care. They Universally do this all over the US, this healthcare.

Not if you have something like cancer and need ongoing care. Not if you need a kidney transplant. The emergency room is just that -- for emergencies. You go in, get stabilized, get discharged.

a reply to: peter_kandra

The truth is, the "average" premium (the monthly bill you pay to the insurance company) hasn't really increased anymore than it historically has. The Kasier Foundation does an annual "Employee Healthcare Benefits Summary". Their findings?

Premiums for single and family coverage increased by 4% in 2015, continuing a fairly long period (2005 to 2015) where annual premium growth has averaged about 5%. T

Kaiser Foundation

The thing is, that's an average. Some pay more, some less. Why then are we hearing about all these people who's insurance premiums have gone up?

Well, the people who are now paying less aren't screaming and yelling and making noise about it for starters. People tend to get a lot louder when they have to pay more for things.

Also, it appears that some now pay less, and now some pay more -- but in the end the net average nationwide is flat. The total costs haven't gone up, but rather WHO is paying more and WHO is paying less appears to have changed.

That's whats going on from reading the report -- as a nation we aren't paying more...rather different people are now paying different amounts.

originally posted by: avgguy

But you can afford it that's the point. You spent your entire life paying an extra 6-14% of extra taxes per year that we don't have. Take a minute and add up all of those taxes throughout your entire life and see if it was really worth it. Unlike the UK we don't have enough people paying taxes to make it work.

It's called National Insurance (although that is now merged with normal taxation these days). If you were to add up everything you ever spent on any insurance it would always be more than you put in, for most people, for most things. That's how insurance works the risk is spread across everyone who may be affected.

Now private companies try and distort this (maximise their profits) by discouraging claims which they do by introducing "no claims discounts" and "excess".

With health the last thing you want to do is think "better not go to the doctors otherwise my no claims discount will reduce". So you have to have a national health service without private money grabbing scheming companies involved for an effective free at the point of delivery service.

Thank God (sorry Bevan) for the NHS, but oh dear how sorry I feel for folks in England as the service is slowly privatised.

I'd like to add that I had to go to the Hôtel Dieu in Paris during a vacation. As an American I had no idea what to expect. It was surprisingly modern, clean and effecient ... considering its the oldest hospital in Paris, established in the 7th century.

I had a complete physical, blood/lab tests and a CAT scan all done in quick order and was out the door with my test results, images/film, and prescription.

They simply waved their hand and almost laughed at me when I tried to show them my private insurance card.

Granted this was an emergency room-type visit, but from my visits to the ER in America, I was seen faster and I felt like I had more comprehensive care. Here, I would have spent nearly 6 hours at the ER...I was in/out in less than 2 there.

originally posted by: ketsuko

This is how socialized medicine can be a very scary thing for some of us. We simply fall through the cracks because we don't fit a bell curve and there isn't much flexibility or impetus to treat us.

Seems no diffrent to a insurence company based one.


For every UK based medical horror story I could likely pull just as many US medical horror story's.

But as I said in the UK if you dont like the NHS you go private. It not NHS or nothing.

originally posted by: WalkInSilence

originally posted by: SprocketUK

Hi, over the years I've seen a lot of threads regarding health care in (mostly) the US and UK.
Pretty much every thread about Obama care devolves into a frenzy of posts about percieved failings of one system or the other.
I hope that some of you feel like relating your own experiences of using healthcare wherever you live.

Hay Sprocket, nice thread with an honest question.
Yes, sadly, we don't get much perspective from the rest of the world and the general American view of healthcare is terribly antiquated and so has your nice thread turned in to yet another rant from the misinformed public who assume to own the space.
I will dare relate my story and perspective as subjective and meager as it may be.

After Thirty plus years in a civilized Scandinavian country I decided to return "home".( USA) I had maintained my citizenship and figured as the adventuress person I am that it should be done while I could still get around with out a walker or a cane.
In good health with a fair education and not listening to my friends persistent advice to reconsider, I came "home" ten years ago.
My education is worthless here, a five year masters degree in a country that doesn't value manual labor is almost detrimental to advancement.
Any way. Health Care.
Scandinavia Excellent health care. Always the same physician, no co-pay, no pay period.
Always sick as a child. Asthma.
Later. Three pneumonias, five shoulder dislocations, repeated infections, poor immune system, three miscarriages and so forth.
My general health has improved greatly over the last twenty-five years.
I had my shoulder repaired before I came back to the US. I had the option of finding the physician of my choice any where in the country, I did and recovered wonderfully. All paid for. transport, operation, every thing.
Before I returned I had a wellness check, mammogram, lung x-ray, everything examined. Free.
I could visit my Doctor at any time for any reason, when ever it pleased me.
This kept me healthy, any ailment was detected before it evolved to something lethal.
People were encouraged to remain healthy and use their doctors.

USA I am in debt beyond reason. I refuse to see a physician any more. I have a DNR notice (Do Not Resuscitate)

I have seen a doctor, or what ever they are here, six times in ten years, and I most certainly could have used it more, all they do is use a huge amount of time, before one talks to a doctor, to record information in their tidy little lap tops.
I takes more time to talk to the silly little assistant and get weighed, again, then the actual consultation.

Three times where annual check ups when I had insurance, two other times, with insurance, where not covered completely, I had the flue or something and hoped for a note to say I could stay in bed till I felt human again. (Oh, No, we will give you two days, then you can come in again, drive sixty miles, with a 103 temp, so we can weigh you again, and then you can get a new "note", maybe.
One time I had a tooth abscess.

Idiots. Pure and simple.

I have well to do friends who tell me horror stories about how some or another "aide" runs out and they can't get pain medication during cancer treatment.
Or they are paying off triple decade old depth.

For a fraction of what we pay towards our so called "foreign defense" we could promote a much healthier and more prosperous public.
Ups I am off topic. Sorry

Should I attract a fatal slowly progressive illness, I will go out, one twenty below night, and die.
Perhaps the Coyotes or a Bear will benefit.

I can't go back. I would have to resume immigrant status.

BTW The reason I ended up in that Scandinavian country was my Mother had cancer and they couldn't afford the treatment in the US so they moved back to her country of origin. A shame isn't it.
She loved her life in the US. She always said after she recovered, " When Dad dies" ( he was far older than her) "we are going " Home" to visit. Mom passed first. Perhaps I felt like I should fulfill her wish.

Damn system.

I would move back to Europe. Tear up those stupid US medical bills and forgot about them!

a reply to: crazyewok

And the thing is, people complain more than they praise. We tend to always hear the negative more than the positive. People seem to really enjoy complaining and ranting/raving. You don't see people going ballistic, posting all over social media and appearing on TV praising anything, ever. Nope. It's just angry people complaining.

I think it feels good or something to complain and commiserate with like-minded people? It must be like some form of group talk/process therapy for people to connect and collectively complain about something they have in common. You never hear about a bunch of people collectively praising and carrying on about how amazing something is -- unless it's something negative against people you don't agree with...