Nationalised health care

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: Reallyfolks
Again, it's a daft premise, isn't it?
Rugby is a great sport for keeping you fit, as is boxing, comes with other health risks attached though, as does cycling to work. Pretty much whatever one "expert" touts as the proper diet for a human will be shown as the opposite by some other expert.

I don't know if you drink at all, but there are people who think total abstinence is the only way and others who say moderate consumption can be beneficial.

The point of centralising healthcare is to ensure the majority of the population is happy, healthy and fit for work. dividing it up into saints and sinners kind of defeats the point.

Not a saint vs sinner issue. There are consequences to your health on many levels. We know this. There is no question that over eating, excessive drinking, smoking, drug use, irresponsible sex, and so on has major consequences. This is about knowing and doing it anyway and expecting to have others pay for it. Don't care how you choose to live...If your choices are leading to issues, the problem isn't who should pay, the issue is someone making piss poor choices knowing the end result, doing it anyway and then acting like a bank expecting a bailout. No sympathy nor willingness to help people who constantly make poor choices.

originally posted by: WalkInSilence

originally posted by: ketsuko

And you will never understand that "pulling together" in a herd means that the weak or the sick can be sacrificed to the good of the many.

Perhaps I am mistaken but I believe we should be above such mentality. I have seen we are in many instances. But surely I am wrong.
We were certainly mistaken in the care unit I worked in where non of the residence had comprehensible language skills. They should have been disposed of forty, sixty years prior.
Every day we tried to make their sorry life happy. Every day.

Pardon me, we cared for them.

I am afraid that I have to agree with you.

You see, most people, especially in America, fear dying. It is not accepted as a part of the process of living. From the time we take our first breath, we start down the path to the time we will take our last. The terror of dying is what projects so many towards life above all cost, mentality.

I have ached in my heart a many time when an eldely person that has lived a good and productive life, has come to their waning years, only to be placed in a bed or strapped in a chair, to waste away. Often they don’t have the ability to eat, drink or take a crap, without someone commanding them, demanding them, or ignoring them.

They are treated worse than children, and no matter how much their children proclaim, “We love them”, you can see the resentment. They don’t have the time, the money, or the space, to care for mom and dad at home, so it should be the government’s responsibility. “My mother/father paid into the government their entire lives!” “It is the government’s [responsibility] to take care of them now that they can’t take care of themselves! “

I used to hear this 10+ times a day. I always wanted so badly to ask them, “ If you [love] your mom/dad so much, why are you farming them out to the care of strangers that are overworked, underpaid, and poorly trained?” Here most of the caregivers have difficulty with the English language, or have such strong accents, that many of the elderly with varying degrees of dementia and poor hearing can't understand much of what the caregivers are saying. This sometimes leads to conflict and complications. One of the reasons elderly abuse is a common problem here.

Before you can get the words, life with respect or death with dignity, or if you try to suggest palliative care, you will immediately get you charged with being part of a death panel, and you are trying to kill old mom/dad off.

A large portion of healthcare dollars are spent in vain attempts to keep people alive longer than even they want to be. I have sat with patients that have begged their family, I mean people in their hundreds, asking their family to please leave them alone and let them die in peace. Only to have the families adamantly refuse. They continued to insist that any and all possible life saving measure be utilized because the family [loves] them too much to let them go.

So palliative care, or death panels, as some want to call them, will have to be seriously addressed if we are going to have a sustainable system. However our biggest hurdle is going to be removing healthcare as a commodity, and making it a system that serves the common good of our country. This is going to be a hard sell, because it is such a lucrative product for so many.

I don’t hold out much hope for such a radical change. Our government has sold us out for much less. My grandfather used to say all the time, “Never trust the government.” I should have listened to him.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

No different from seeing someone in a fast food chain, ordering 6000 calories worth of food and a small diet coke to offset it. Have at it, not my problem if you become obese.

ya, the problem comes in where people start deciding who is suffering because of actions that they willingly did and those who aren't? We can't even avoid convicting innocent people and imposing life long prison sentences on them. And then you'd have to clean all the crap that is being added to our food that IS CAUSING that obesity, along with diabetes...

then you have the fact that more and more people are being put in the position where they just can't afford much more than the cheap, poison laden food, and well are working their tails off and don't have the energy or the time to cook a decent meal if they could afford to!

I have a problem with my bones....are you going to judge my habits to justify not allowing me to get any treatment? not that I want it, I'd be better off in just keeping lots of cheese and chocolate milk in the house when you consider that the medication they would give me would cause my stomach to be so acidic that I would need medication for that, which, can you guess what that medication's side effects are?? oh, ya, it causes the bones to deteriorate.

meanwhile, I am here, can't work, no insurance so I am not even bothering with any doctors, no income or benefits of any kinds, and well, I can't afford the cheese, the milk, or much of anything else, living with two sons in a two bedroom trailer, sponging off them!
but hey, my husband, along with me worked a good part of lives paying taxes, that helped our neighbors have nice homes, good food, AND DECENT MEDICAL CARE!

the businesses, the healthcare/drug industry are allowed to do whatever, regardless of how it effects the people who have to live with their crap, because oh ya, profits are god...

clean up that mess, if you have the will, then worry about the people's bad habits.....
any bad habits I might have, have never taken a cent out of your pocket, and quite frankly, probably never will!!!
I'm not as worthy to receiive them as the lady next door who probably has never worked a day in her life, gets a disability check, has plenty of money to get her hair done, travel once a month across state lines to visit family, and yet thinks she has the right to pester me on a daily basis for crap she doesn't want to buy herself even!!! and heck ya, that single mom with three, who knows maybe it's four by now kids all from different daddies, ya she is more worthy than me also...

me??? I am supposed to just work till I drop dead on the production floor, pay my taxes, so the rich can keep on getting rich, and the poor and stay alive! got it! although, have to tell ya now, ain't buying it!!! any bad habits I have now is for the sole purpose of shortening the time I have to spend here!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Reallyfolks

No different from seeing someone in a fast food chain, ordering 6000 calories worth of food and a small diet coke to offset it. Have at it, not my problem if you become obese.

ya, the problem comes in where people start deciding who is suffering because of actions that they willingly did and those who aren't? We can't even avoid convicting innocent people and imposing life long prison sentences on them. And then you'd have to clean all the crap that is being added to our food that IS CAUSING that obesity, along with diabetes...

then you have the fact that more and more people are being put in the position where they just can't afford much more than the cheap, poison laden food, and well are working their tails off and don't have the energy or the time to cook a decent meal if they could afford to!

I have a problem with my bones....are you going to judge my habits to justify not allowing me to get any treatment? not that I want it, I'd be better off in just keeping lots of cheese and chocolate milk in the house when you consider that the medication they would give me would cause my stomach to be so acidic that I would need medication for that, which, can you guess what that medication's side effects are?? oh, ya, it causes the bones to deteriorate.

meanwhile, I am here, can't work, no insurance so I am not even bothering with any doctors, no income or benefits of any kinds, and well, I can't afford the cheese, the milk, or much of anything else, living with two sons in a two bedroom trailer, sponging off them!
but hey, my husband, along with me worked a good part of lives paying taxes, that helped our neighbors have nice homes, good food, AND DECENT MEDICAL CARE!

the businesses, the healthcare/drug industry are allowed to do whatever, regardless of how it effects the people who have to live with their crap, because oh ya, profits are god...

clean up that mess, if you have the will, then worry about the people's bad habits.....
any bad habits I might have, have never taken a cent out of your pocket, and quite frankly, probably never will!!!
I'm not as worthy to receiive them as the lady next door who probably has never worked a day in her life, gets a disability check, has plenty of money to get her hair done, travel once a month across state lines to visit family, and yet thinks she has the right to pester me on a daily basis for crap she doesn't want to buy herself even!!! and heck ya, that single mom with three, who knows maybe it's four by now kids all from different daddies, ya she is more worthy than me also...

me??? I am supposed to just work till I drop dead on the production floor, pay my taxes, so the rich can keep on getting rich, and the poor and stay alive! got it! although, have to tell ya now, ain't buying it!!! any bad habits I have now is for the sole purpose of shortening the time I have to spend here!

So you are going to equate your situation with everyone demanding that someone else pay for their health? Doesn't sound like you are. I understand about working hard hours. When I know I will be working crazy hours I will cook and put up food ahead of time. And there is a difference between making poor choices repeatedly and every once in a while.

The people you described are the exact people I have no interest in helping. Sorry, call me mean or whatever. If something is important then steps will be taken. Giving someone a hand to temporarily get through something is one thing. Supporting someone constantly for a life full of poor choices is something else. One group I might be inclined to help. The other, not my problem.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

ya, but well, the way it is now, great way to make productive people unproductive, and oh ya, you can still ignore them while they die off....

at least if it was a national healthcare system paid via taxes, there wouldn't be so many working and paying the taxes being left out of the loop, feeling like the system is just a bloodsucking vampire sucking the life out of them for everybody's benefit but there own!!
which in my opinion is far worse than poor little you having to pitch in and pay for a few people's bad choices if you are actually getting to benefit from the healthcare system that the taxpayers had a huge part in building to begin with!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Reallyfolks

ya, but well, the way it is now, great way to make productive people unproductive, and oh ya, you can still ignore them while they die off....

at least if it was a national healthcare system paid via taxes, there wouldn't be so many working and paying the taxes being left out of the loop, feeling like the system is just a bloodsucking vampire sucking the life out of them for everybody's benefit but there own!!
which in my opinion is far worse than poor little you having to pitch in and pay for a few people's bad choices if you are actually getting to benefit from the healthcare system that the taxpayers had a huge part in building to begin with!

If you want to spend life cleaning up for others poor choices then have at it. Don't care if it's mean. My healthcare is fine for me. I don't think anyone disagrees it is too expensive but the fact is if you do nothing about costs you simply transfer cost to the taxpayers. We have a 3.4 trillion budget this year. Like 3.5 trillion in healthcare spending last year. Don't think anyone can argue that we can't double our budget and if we aren't looking at lowering the cost first, then you are simply moving a problem to all the people and solving nothing.

If we aren't going to a dress costs then some private organizations can step up with the help of donations to cover medical costs for people who can't. With all the people I see saying they have no problem paying more, these companies should have no problem with funding. Unless those claiming they will pay more are really saying I want others to pay more, but need to appeal on emotional level. Fix the cost issue or you won't solve anything. Fix the cost artificially and more problems come

originally posted by: dawnstara reply to: Reallyfolks

ya, but well, the way it is now, great way to make productive people unproductive, and oh ya, you can still ignore them while they die off....

at least if it was a national healthcare system paid via taxes, there wouldn't be so many working and paying the taxes being left out of the loop, feeling like the system is just a bloodsucking vampire sucking the life out of them for everybody's benefit but there own!!
which in my opinion is far worse than poor little you having to pitch in and pay for a few people's bad choices if you are actually getting to benefit from the healthcare system that the taxpayers had a huge part in building to begin with!

You are closer to the truth than you realize. Many indigent do get better healthcare than the insured. For two reasons. The big one is liability. If a doctor provides low quality care to an indigent patient and something goes wrong, big law suit, and possible loss of his livelihood. Second, the State almost always picks up the tab. Oh, and I almost forgot number three, which is the biggest reason of all; no insurance company holding him back from doing what he thinks is best for the patient.

For all those people screaming about, they don't want to pay for people who have bad choices in their life, they will probably be shocked to know that they already do, and on a whole lot larger scale than they would on a Single Payer System.

They also forget that the average American, is just one paycheck away from being homeless. When that job is snatched, so is that lousy medical insurance. Every time a person loses a job, that is another family that goes into the homeless and indigent line. I hope all of them have pensions and contracts because they could very easily end up in that rapidly growing line.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn

originally posted by: dawnstara reply to: Reallyfolks

ya, but well, the way it is now, great way to make productive people unproductive, and oh ya, you can still ignore them while they die off....

at least if it was a national healthcare system paid via taxes, there wouldn't be so many working and paying the taxes being left out of the loop, feeling like the system is just a bloodsucking vampire sucking the life out of them for everybody's benefit but there own!!
which in my opinion is far worse than poor little you having to pitch in and pay for a few people's bad choices if you are actually getting to benefit from the healthcare system that the taxpayers had a huge part in building to begin with!

You are closer to the truth than you realize. Many indigent do get better healthcare than the insured. For two reasons. The big one is liability. If a doctor provides low quality care to an indigent patient and something goes wrong, big law suit, and possible loss of his livelihood. Second, the State almost always picks up the tab. Oh, and I almost forgot number three, which is the biggest reason of all; no insurance company holding him back from doing what he thinks is best for the patient.

For all those people screaming about, they don't want to pay for people who have bad choices in their life, they will probably be shocked to know that they already do, and on a whole lot larger scale than they would on a Single Payer System.

They also forget that the average American, is just one paycheck away from being homeless. When that job is snatched, so is that lousy medical insurance. Every time a person loses a job, that is another family that goes into the homeless and indigent line. I hope all of them have pensions and contracts because they could very easily end up in that rapidly growing line.

so from what I understand the hidden tax we pay for uninsured runs about 1000 a year. I see that taxes will go up 7-14% a year for single payer. Lot more the single payer way. Why because the argument is still over who pays not lowering costs which shifting the whole burden to tax payers isn't a solution, its moving it.

So do people want to move the problem or solve it. Seems most want to move it.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

look, I've spend decades watching our gov't expend that safety net for the poor, create new programs, and increase all kinds of taxes..... and well, just about every time, I then proceeded to watch the insurance companies (heck maybe even the healthcare providers, wouldn't know about that one), increase their rates while throwing some great end of the year party for the upper management, give themselves massive bonuses and salary increases while slapping themselves on the back for such a great job, well done!!
the problem isn't with the people or their lousy habits, it's with a government that has become increasingly more fascist year after year, both parties playing their roles, and padding each other's pockets while they suck any all wealth from the people actually paying the taxes!!!

you want to cut the consumer's costs??? cut the benefits programs, outside of social security, since at least those people worked their whole lives for it, and tell the business sector to either adjust and pay more money to their employees and charge less, or suffer the consequences! My bet would be that you'd see this economy balance itself out right quick!!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Reallyfolks

look, I've spend decades watching our gov't expend that safety net for the poor, create new programs, and increase all kinds of taxes..... and well, just about every time, I then proceeded to watch the insurance companies (heck maybe even the healthcare providers, wouldn't know about that one), increase their rates while throwing some great end of the year party for the upper management, give themselves massive bonuses and salary increases while slapping themselves on the back for such a great job, well done!!
the problem isn't with the people or their lousy habits, it's with a government that has become increasingly more fascist year after year, both parties playing their roles, and padding each other's pockets while they suck any all wealth from the people actually paying the taxes!!!

you want to cut the consumer's costs??? cut the benefits programs, outside of social security, since at least those people worked their whole lives for it, and tell the business sector to either adjust and pay more money to their employees and charge less, or suffer the consequences! My bet would be that you'd see this economy balance itself out right quick!!

Don't disagree with costs and other points. But to say that people's habits have nothing to do with it just isn't accurate. But until you deal with costs then shifting costs won't solve anything.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

just don't start taxing my chocolate milk because you are so worried about my lousy habits taking money out of your pocket or I will just steal it! and, prisoners cost the taxpayers sometime like $100,000 a year/ prisoner!

the upper managements of those health insurance industries and large healthcare provider companies make far, far more than any gov't employee, including the president's salary!!! that right there would cut the danged costs considerably!

let's see, $1000 hidden tax, plus what you pay for your insurance, plus the deductable that you have to pay for what they don't pay, plus the out of pocket costs...... compared to a let's say 10% increase in taxes.... I won't go for the full 14% because the government would also cut some costs by doing away with the old benefit programs they have, along with that great obamacare website that, well how much did they get charged for that piece of unworkable programming?

I think that for most people, it would be a win!!!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Reallyfolks

just don't start taxing my chocolate milk because you are so worried about my lousy habits taking money out of your pocket or I will just steal it! and, prisoners cost the taxpayers sometime like $100,000 a year/ prisoner!

the upper managements of those health insurance industries and large healthcare provider companies make far, far more than any gov't employee, including the president's salary!!! that right there would cut the danged costs considerably!

let's see, $1000 hidden tax, plus what you pay for your insurance, plus the deductable that you have to pay for what they don't pay, plus the out of pocket costs...... compared to a let's say 10% increase in taxes.... I won't go for the full 14% because the government would also cut some costs by doing away with the old benefit programs they have, along with that great obamacare website that, well how much did they get charged for that piece of unworkable programming?

I think that for most people, it would be a win!!!

Again don't care how you live life, eat drink whatever. Don't come for a save afterwards. And that's what I try to do is see how people would cut costs. Until that happens everything else is secondary.

Regardless, the pooch was screwed with most recent change. Government is in no position nor is anyone with a brain cell asking to get them more involved.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

why, in so many ways it was the gov't that got us into this mess, and they are still doing plenty, is it too much to ask that instead of doing so much that has been so harmful to the average consumer that they actually start working to make something better for a change?? there aren't that many healthcare providers, insurance companies, and drug companies that haven't gotten nice windfalls in one way or the other from the gov't, it's insane to think that that money doesn't come with a few strings attached..... all it would take to decrease the costs would be to yank a few strings!! They just don't want to because well, the average consumer just doesn't have enough funds to compete with the industry's lobbyists.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Reallyfolks

why, in so many ways it was the gov't that got us into this mess, and they are still doing plenty, is it too much to ask that instead of doing so much that has been so harmful to the average consumer that they actually start working to make something better for a change?? there aren't that many healthcare providers, insurance companies, and drug companies that haven't gotten nice windfalls in one way or the other from the gov't, it's insane to think that that money doesn't come with a few strings attached..... all it would take to decrease the costs would be to yank a few strings!! They just don't want to because well, the average consumer just doesn't have enough funds to compete with the industry's lobbyists.

Show me when and where government makes things better. Hard to say. Basically government can screw up anything but that somehow translates into them doing more? Doesn't make much sense.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

well, until you change the way the gov't is working, you aren't gonna be able to change the cost of healthcare, since the two are linked...with a virtually untraceable flow of money that is helping to increase those costs....
people's habits might be playing a part in it, but the money from the gov't is a driving force that no other aspect can stop!!!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Reallyfolks

well, until you change the way the gov't is working, you aren't gonna be able to change the cost of healthcare, since the two are linked...with a virtually untraceable flow of money that is helping to increase those costs....
people's habits might be playing a part in it, but the money from the gov't is a driving force that no other aspect can stop!!!

And that point we agree on. But either way it happens cost must be dealt with. We cant possibly double our budget at the moment. Probably less than that as we already have costs at the federal level but still. There is patient habits, ways to lower insurance and again the one thing that has always blown me away. Two sets of stitches over a 6 month period. Both times the Dr opens this kit with 20-25 items. Takes like 3 and tosses the rest. From what I gathered hospitals don't have an option to buy individual items. Must buy kits even if they won't be used. Why? Talk about waste. Granted maybe small potatoes but enough add up. Also why do big pharmaceutical companies need all research grants with nothing for the taxpayers on the backend? No lower cost, no repayment, no lowering the patent threshold if the taxpayers pay for research so generics can be on the market quicker. Again maybe small but they add up. Could the paperwork change to save a ton, maybe. Could we offer two sets of coverage ? One for high risk people making poor choices and lower risk for those that don't?.

originally posted by: avgguy

But you can afford it that's the point. You spent your entire life paying an extra 6-14% of extra taxes per year that we don't have. Take a minute and add up all of those taxes throughout your entire life and see if it was really worth it. Unlike the UK we don't have enough people paying taxes to make it work.

I was born in the US, and have paid more than my share in taxes, etc. My employers once paid 100% of my healthcare premiums, but chose to discontinue that perk due to economic considerations. I couldn't afford to pay for insurance, so I defied the Obamacare laws, but unfortunately suffered two heart attacks while uninsured.

Due to non-coverage, I currently have well over $200,000 worth of medical bills sitting on my desk. I know that they will never get paid because I can no longer work due to my conditions. Social Security is a nightmare, and has been giving me the run around for years. (literally) They want more medical documentation, (which I can't afford) or they drag their feet, always coming up with another excuse to deny my claim yet again. While I am still alive, my monthly prescriptions still cost me over $400 per month. Healthcare premiums + co pays + deductibles + prescription drug costs exceed my total monthly net income.

Our current American system is horribly flawed and woefully insufficient. From age 18 to age 62 my total medical expenses were probably less than $100 per year, but once your health starts to go, you quickly learn the value of good and AFFORDABLE healthcare.

There is really only one issue and one question here.

The issue is...do we provide a safety net or do we provide healthcare to those that can't afford it. Yes or no.

Taking it further...even people with healthcare/Insurance lose their homes and businesses because their insurance only covers some of the expenses. Do we help those people?

And what about those people that aren't dying but need treatment. They'll live without the pain medication but some days it's really rough. They'll live with the tendinitis but if they could just get that one steroid shot in the arm. They'll live without the plastic surgery but the face covered in burn scars is really tough to live with.


This is a micro-section of the ObamaCare Debate because people are saying that ObamaCare is making it so they can't afford Health Insurance. It's my biggest problem with the Republicans, they only say repeal Obama Care but say nothing about any replacement or help for those with no insurance who can't afford healthcare. That's where the debate should be.

If you want to repeal ObamaCAre, that's fine but have a replacement that works.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Sorry but this part is totally wrong, the UK does not "ignore" US patents and has its own massive pharmaceutical industry.

Until recently (we're talking, within 10 weeks) Indian generic drugs were being used in the UK. There's currently a ban on them. Getting generics from India is ignoring US patents.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
My point is if spend your life making poor choices about your health have at it. When things start getting bad don't come whining that someone else needs to pay for your poor choices. Don't care what you eat, drink, consume. We all know the results if you take into many calories, excessively drink, do drugs, and so on. Want to do it anyways...knock yourself out. I do not care about your health at that point because you didn't either as far as ala carte insurance , the higher risk groups would go up. The lower risk groups should not. While this alone won't solve the cost issue it can be cheaper from insurance perspective for those in lower risks, and people not paying for services that won't ever be used by them

But you aren't defining poor choices at all. You're using some arbitrary metric. How much alcohol do you have to drink for it to be considered a poor choice?

If you were writing a law, how would you define it? Where would the cutoff be?