America needs more guns to prevent shootings. Lets learn from Switzerland.

a reply to: SaltyRibeye

I don't think the majority of gun violence is racially based in the US.

originally posted by: SergeantSmoke
a reply to: neo96

So you're saying minorities are responsible for the majority of gun violence?

Not in the way your implying.

A minority is indeed responsible here.

They are called criminals.

The 99 percent don't do jack.

The Swiss All have guns, but they don't have any ammo, it's perfectly legal to buy a gun there but ammunition is very strictly controlled.

a reply to: TedHodgson

I'm sure ammo is easily obtained on the black market.

Still no violence.

a reply to: asmall89

I don't think you can only attribute mental illness, or access to guns to the cause of these shootings. I think it has a lot to do with society. America is highly individualistic and certain states are more so than others. These shooters suffer from societal isolation. They feel as if they don't fit in and that no one cares, thus their self worth is low. The current state in which I live is very individualistic (vs. say the Midwest) and has seen two of the largest shootings in America.

The shooter's delusional sense of social isolation and low self worth is still within the realm of a psychological issue and I think for the time being should only be treated as such...Don't get me wrong,the high esteem for individualism in the U.S is definitely a factor into their overall mental state both prior and during these atrocious events but to sway society towards more inclusive,collective principles (Not to the degree of PC) would be a hard thing to sell especially in highly populated cities.

More or less your right societies values would need to change in order to facilitate the sort of change many people I think even on this thread are looking for regarding mass-shootings,gun violence and the mental state of both firearm owners and non-firearm owners.

This is a tough topic. I believe in the 2nd Amendment that citizens should be able to arm themselves for protection and for militia purposes against tyrannical forces (outside of the US Military). However the amount of mass shootings needs to be addressed.

I could be mistaken but wasn't one of the main reasons for the 2nd amendment was in case the slaves at the time decided to revolt they could put them down, since it was cheaper to assemble a militia than a standing national army?

More guns wouldn't equate to less violence in America. The main reason is actually very simple and obvious. Most people are too busy comparing themselves to everyone else. They judge themselves negatively and they wish, more than anything, they could be like the people that they'll never be. When certain people feel like they aren't good enough or the outcast, they seek vengeance on all of society. I haven't heard about a single shooting that was done by someone who generally fit in and enjoyed life. Not saying there hasn't been any, but most of these shooters are the bullied or outcast or the crybabies who are sick of being dealt a bad hand.

Just like we're trying to compare other nation's laws and situations to America, too many people have fallen into the self-serving and self-loathing cycle of fitting in. It's just the way society is now. Combine this behavior with medications, and why is anyone surprised or wondering why? ?

a reply to: NateTheAnimator

I'd be interested in a source for this information regarding slaves and the 2nd. I'm not saying it's completely wrong, but why would they feel the need to write an amendment to put down the "uncooperative" slaves when they weren't treated as humans to begin with.

We all know what the 2nd says, and it's not like the bible. You can't twist and interpret the words to fit your beliefs.

a reply to: TedHodgson

Wrong. Ammo can be bought just as easily as guns in Switzerland.

Source: Swiss gunlaws

a reply to: ManFromEurope

a reply to: TedHodgson
Wrong. Ammo can be bought just as easily as guns in Switzerland.
Source: Swiss gunlaws

Not sure how you come to this conclusion. If you read further up in the statements you have linked to you will notice that the purchase of ammunition is just as strictly regulated as it is for weapons.

I’m not too sure about the laws in America about carrying weapons, but I think I read that carrying a weapon openly in public is becoming more and more common and I believe Americans can do so without a specific permit. In Switzerland however you need a permit and to obtain that permit is no easy either.

Carrying guns
To carry a loaded firearm in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragbewilligung (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security. It is, however, quite common to see a person serving military service to be en route with his rifle, albeit unloaded.

Conditions for getting a Carrying Permit
There are three conditions:
• fulfilling the conditions for buying a permit (see section above)
• stating plausibly the need to carry firearms to protect oneself, other people, or real property from a specified danger
• passing an examination proving both weapon handling skills and knowledge regarding lawful use of the weapon

The carrying permit remains valid for a term of five years (unless otherwise surrendered or revoked), and applies only to the type of firearm for which the permit was issued. Additional constraints may be invoked to modify any specific permit. Neither hunters nor game wardens require a carrying permit.
en.wikipedia.org...

Apart from their military training the Swiss have to undergo further examinations to receive that permit.

And as a fact, since 2007 only specialist are allowed to take the ammunition home in between military service. Even prior to 2007 members of the Swiss Militia, supplied with 50-rounds of ammunition for their military weapon in a sealed ammo box, were regularly audited by the government.

Free lobotomies for everyone seems like the only real solution.

originally posted by: amazing
It's not just gun laws though.

The Swiss have a much better healthcare system including care for Mental Health. That's the key.

They also have a much, much lower unemployment rate and higher standard of living.

We know that Gun controls-background checks etc are important, the Swiss have that. We know that Gun ownership is important, the Swiss own us on that. We know that healthcare for mentally ill is important. The Swiss dominate us on that and we know that crime increases in direct proportion to economic crises. The Swiss destroy us on that.

So that's the story. We need to be sensible on Guns. We can do that. But the difference between us and other countries is mental healthcare and economics/standard of living.

Where is Gun Crime highest?

Maybe that is the key, maybe not. Although, as you say, the Swiss healthcare system includes care for mental health, Swiss statistics point out that although violence with the gun in public is relatively low the rate of suicide using a gun is alarmingly high.

bazonline.ch...
Laut einem UNO-Report aus dem Jahr 2010 waren in der Schweiz pro 100'000 Einwohner 0,5 Tötungsdelikte mit einer Schusswaffe zu beklagen – was im Vergleich zu den USA mit einer zehnmal so hohen Quote von 5 Tötungen pro 100'000 Einwohner vergleichsweise niedrig anmutet. Dagegen ist die Selbstmordrate mit 200 bis 300 Suiziden durch Schusswaffen in der Schweiz relativ hoch.

Also the rate of domestic violence using guns in specific is increasing and more and more people would like to change the law. Switzerland voted in 2012 to implement new gun laws which were only just rejected.
bazonline.ch...

***

A few members touched the subject of the different cultural background of the Swiss.

The Swiss military expert Stahel also debates that the rare misuse of weapons is due to Swiss society. He says, Swiss society is more about ‘compromising’ than ‘conflict’ as is the case in the US (the linked article features a video to enhance this). Further, he says, due to the history and the military of Switzerland the Swiss have in regards to weapons and the dangers involved a sense of consequent responsibility.

I read that as saying that the Swiss never had a Wild West scenario and never were cowboys.

originally posted by: lucia2389
a reply to: ManFromEurope


a reply to: TedHodgson
Wrong. Ammo can be bought just as easily as guns in Switzerland.
Source: Swiss gunlaws



Not sure how you come to this conclusion. If you read further up in the statements you have linked to you will notice that the purchase of ammunition is just as strictly regulated as it is for weapons.
..

I just said that. If you think that it is regulated in a strict way, I can only assume that this is a fallacy of subjectivism on both of our sides.. If I compare Swiss gun-laws with German gun-laws, they seem quite lax. Compared to the USA, they might seem strict.

originally posted by: frostie
a reply to: alldaylong

So our legislation is perfect, and its not the guns its the people?

So Gun control shouldn't even be on the table.

It should be healthcare for crazies.

I think plenty would disagree.

I haven't read this full thread but will do so, I think what he means in the majority of homicide cases in the US it is mental health related. Switzerland is a total different place, yes it has readily access to guns just like America but it's education, healthcare system and general gun education and control is completely different.

I agree with him, most shootings I know of in the USA is usually due to a mental lapse of the shooter. Others are attributed to self-defence or accident.

In the UK anyone wanting to own a firearm that is not an antique must go through a lot of mental health and background checks. It tends to work at stopping people to get firearms for nefarious or suicidal reasons.

Education is the key, a firearm is just a tool. Someone who is unstable will use whatever tool they can acquire.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: TinkerHaus

This keeps getting parroted and it simply ignores everything about most shootings and the connections that the shooter usually had with the targets.

Obviously there are exceptions and on both sides. Like this most recent shooting did not take place in a gun free zone.
You could absolutely carry on that campus.

Everything I've read, prior to this post existing, is that Umpqua had a no firearms policy. Can you show me otherwise?

originally posted by: frostie
a reply to: deadeyedick

haha yeah!

What, are they going to send SWAT teams to every gun owner not giving up their gun and preaching

"you can take my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"

We have 10's of millions of Americans ready to pull the trigger at the drop of a dime.

All they wait for is the right excuse and they do not work for military or police.

originally posted by: Lysergic
Free lobotomies for everyone seems like the only real solution.

I'm about to volunteer for one just so I can contribute to this painfully unsophisticated debate.

So much is left out. Mental health is but a small part of the problem.

a reply to: TinkerHaus

They have a policy yes, but it can not override state law. People can and very much so did carry on the campus.
www.rawstory.com...

www.oregonlive.com...

So it was more that they asked you not to bring them but you could if you wanted and not break any rules.

originally posted by: alldaylong
There is something you fail to understand here.

The mental cases who commit these acts are not afraid to die. In fact in many cases they end up taking their own lives.

You logic is invalid.

But if we're using logic, here, wouldn't it be pertinent to point out that mass shootings account for less than 1% of deaths by firearms in the US, therefore citing the mental cases that commit mass shootings as an example of flawed logic is in and of itself, flawed? You're using a less-than 1% sample of gun violence to try and invalidate an argument that appears capable of helping reduce the rest of the 99% of firearm-related deaths per year.

a reply to: Sremmos80
I think the point is that the right people were not carrying at the school.

Education is looking to be bad for ones health.

originally posted by: lucia2389

originally posted by: amazing
It's not just gun laws though.

The Swiss have a much better healthcare system including care for Mental Health. That's the key.

They also have a much, much lower unemployment rate and higher standard of living.

We know that Gun controls-background checks etc are important, the Swiss have that. We know that Gun ownership is important, the Swiss own us on that. We know that healthcare for mentally ill is important. The Swiss dominate us on that and we know that crime increases in direct proportion to economic crises. The Swiss destroy us on that.

So that's the story. We need to be sensible on Guns. We can do that. But the difference between us and other countries is mental healthcare and economics/standard of living.

Where is Gun Crime highest?

Maybe that is the key, maybe not. Although, as you say, the Swiss healthcare system includes care for mental health, Swiss statistics point out that although violence with the gun in public is relatively low the rate of suicide using a gun is alarmingly high.

bazonline.ch...
Laut einem UNO-Report aus dem Jahr 2010 waren in der Schweiz pro 100'000 Einwohner 0,5 Tötungsdelikte mit einer Schusswaffe zu beklagen – was im Vergleich zu den USA mit einer zehnmal so hohen Quote von 5 Tötungen pro 100'000 Einwohner vergleichsweise niedrig anmutet. Dagegen ist die Selbstmordrate mit 200 bis 300 Suiziden durch Schusswaffen in der Schweiz relativ hoch.

Also the rate of domestic violence using guns in specific is increasing and more and more people would like to change the law. Switzerland voted in 2012 to implement new gun laws which were only just rejected.
bazonline.ch...

***

A few members touched the subject of the different cultural background of the Swiss.

The Swiss military expert Stahel also debates that the rare misuse of weapons is due to Swiss society. He says, Swiss society is more about ‘compromising’ than ‘conflict’ as is the case in the US (the linked article features a video to enhance this). Further, he says, due to the history and the military of Switzerland the Swiss have in regards to weapons and the dangers involved a sense of consequent responsibility.

I read that as saying that the Swiss never had a Wild West scenario and never were cowboys.

Good points. And although culture and history of a country play a huge part and we'll never be exactly like the Swiss, we can still implement better mental healthcare in this country. There is plenty of money for it. The rest is up to our economy and how we treat those in poverty or poverty areas. In both cases the swiss are better than we are.

Chicago is all about Crime and poverty. Mass shootings are all about mental healthcare.