Here’s What The World Thinks About The American Response To The Oregon Massacre

a reply to: strongfp

HUH????? So, if heroin is manufactured by a machine it should be more illegal???

OR...if someone manufactures a firearm in their home it should be...okay???

(if you think the two above premises are just silly, refer back to your post which is equally if not more so)

C'mon!!

That's a complete defletion

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: luthier

Why doesn't Switzerland have the mass shooter problem ?

Because they also have restrictive gun laws like us in Australia.

Come on mate, seriously?

Their laws are nothing like Australia. Do you have a militia based army? Do most young males have guns in Australia? Are you allowed semi autos?

originally posted by: zerozero00
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

We are pack animals in the big scheme of things,
so, yer a little violence didn't hurt anybody ... infact it becomes important in certain situations to slap someone down...just don't kill them

Its not being hypocritical, just controlled

ok, example...you disrespect my daughter in a relationship and you're likely to get a punch on the nose and sent on your way...Over the pond in the good ole US of A you just blow his head off with your 12 gauge ...hmmm see the difference?

No killings!!!...Why do you think it ok to kill someone that breaks into your home to steal your possessions?
Why do yanks think it OK to kill anyone at all, ever?
We don't even have a death penalty in the UK...for a very good reason too, way to many innocents die this way

But your scenario wouldn't be a mass killing now would it? Apparently murder is not above any nation in the world. Why do you brits think it's ok to mug someone with a knife and stab them....question is about as relevant as yours I believe?

As far as I know, from your homicide stats, murder has not decreased since gun regulations in the UK either.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: strongfp

originally posted by: joemoe
a reply to: strongfp

The issue you missed also is that gun also saved over 200,000 people every year in the US. It's just not sensational news.

You are pulling that figure out of thin air.

You want to know what has save millions and millions year round on this planet?
Gun regulation and control.

I already proved that incorrect pages ago with source links to Australia's homicide staying the same or moving higher after the major gun control regulations passing. Killers moved to different weapons. Gun regulation did nothing for their homiide rate and my sources are the Aussie government themselves.

Try again.

Killers, yes people who are out to MURDER people.
You are ignoring the issue again, and shining the spotlight on another person or nation, ignoring the elephant in the room. That the United states has a gun issue, in 2012 almost 70% of all murders in the united states were with guns, here we are in 2015 and the united states has almost 300 mass shootings in less than 365 days out of the year.

How many does Australia have?

The point people are trying to get across is that more guns does not mean less death. The issue is more guns leads to easy death and more unnecessary violence and death.

a reply to: Kryties

We "allow" nothing. The US forces many of those things onto us with threats of sanctions, political instability and/or all out war if other countries do not "oblige".

Hmmm... Seems like this would be a good reason to have a Second Amendment in those countries. Sometimes violence accomplishes what diplomacy cannot.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
Despite popular belief, Switzerland have fairly restrictive gun laws. All gun owners in Switzerland must be licensed and pass extensive background checks.

Oh, you mean like here?

I have to get approval from the local and state police and be cleared by the FBI before I can get a permit.

In your state maybe, but you can still buy a gun without any of those checks from a private buyer, plus a lot of states don't require licensing or registration.

Either way, clearly Switzerland have far more effective regulations, yet they still have a high rate of gun owners. Which just goes to prove that no one whats to disarm America... its about the need to enact commonsense & effective regulations.

Lol, all that proves is they did it.....

" which goes to prove no one wants to disarm America"

Lol

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Why so angry about other people's opinions on a discussion board?

I don't have to have any solutions in order have a deep sense or recognitation that we need a course correction. One thing is certain though, being shouted down by overly paranoid, fear-mongering fellow gun owners won't solve this problem. If, as a gun owner, further effort or expense by me is required to prevent anymore kids from dying - I'll gladly trade a bit of inconvenience for young lives.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: strongfp

HUH????? So, if heroin is manufactured by a machine it should be more illegal???

OR...if someone manufactures a firearm in their home it should be...okay???

(if you think the two above premises are just silly, refer back to your post which is equally if not more so)

C'mon!!

That's a complete defletion

Stop straw manning the thread on me.

You know exactly what I meant.

Once again ignoring that guns are not heroin.

It seems fairly evident there are a number of posters on this thread who are clearly misinformed about crime statistics, firearms regulations in the United States, the nature of firearms in general (i.e. powerful, assault, etc.)...and just plain talking out their rear end for the sake of furthering some agenda (which someone told them, 3rd hand, they should believe in).

originally posted by: strongfp

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: strongfp

originally posted by: joemoe
a reply to: strongfp

The issue you missed also is that gun also saved over 200,000 people every year in the US. It's just not sensational news.

You are pulling that figure out of thin air.

You want to know what has save millions and millions year round on this planet?
Gun regulation and control.

I already proved that incorrect pages ago with source links to Australia's homicide staying the same or moving higher after the major gun control regulations passing. Killers moved to different weapons. Gun regulation did nothing for their homiide rate and my sources are the Aussie government themselves.

Try again.

Killers, yes people who are out to MURDER people.
You are ignoring the issue again, and shining the spotlight on another person or nation, ignoring the elephant in the room. That the United states has a gun issue, in 2012 almost 70% of all murders in the united states were with guns, here we are in 2015 and the united states has almost 300 mass shootings in less than 365 days out of the year.

How many does Australia have?

The point people are trying to get across is that more guns does not mean less death. The issue is more guns leads to easy death and more necessary violence and death.

Oh...ok. I get it now. So it is not really about decreasing the number of deaths, just how many die in one place?

Interesting debate method....

Why would I care to get rid of something that changes nothing? The issue is the person behind the tool used to kill....that is what I want to change.

ETA: Australia has none, just a higher homicide rate now than before using different weapons. But hey...at least no mass shootings right? Let the people die as long as they don't die together.....

But one notices that anytime we have a mass murder there is a gun present.

If a gun is lying on the table with no one around, it's harmless. Guns alone are essentially harmless.
If a Nutbar is lying on the couch with no gun, he is harmless insofar as a mass murder.

It's when you put the two together that you've got a problem

Nutbar + Gun = Problem.

If you absolutely cannot tolerate the idea of no guns, then you must at least come to entertain that we need much stricter policies buying them. Think of it as mass murder prevention step one.

a reply to: Kryties

You simply will not ba able to shame the US into becoming another UK or Australia with regard to guns. Nice effort, but in the end, we're perfectly comfortable with the number of gun deaths here. We have reached our equilibrium.

a reply to: kaylaluv

The Oregon shooter was able to legally purchase guns. Do you really think he should have been able to?

It really means nothing.
There was a guy that was able to easily purchase heroin just down the street from where I work.... even though it is super duper illegal... a doctor can't prescribe it in AMERICA.

The narco gangs in Mexico are not legally allowed to purchase hand grenades, RPG's and machine guns.... yet they have a whole lot of them that they purchased.

What are silly laws good for when criminals are involved?

Remember, mass murder is illegal, so your Oregon shooter doesn't seem to pay attention to laws anyway.

a reply to: kosmicjack

Well, I wasn't shouting you personally down (and if it appeared this way, my apologies). What I intended to illustrate was the hypocracy of folks when they make statements such as this. You are certainly not the first person I've heard say this.

Secondly, I'm not angry (well, not really), but I am frustrated by much of the flat-out erroneous propaganda and bull-hockey which gets posted sometimes on threads such as these.

Lastly, we can all identify 'problems', this part is easy. Identifying 'solutions' is a little more difficult, hence my question to you.

Again, from one of my earlier posts on page 9 (I believe) you can see actual data does NOT support the notion guns are the problem. Hence the solution we need to be looking for lies outside the boundaries of further firearms legislation.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

All these combination have caused mass murder in the past:

Nutbar + Gun = Problem.
Nutbar + Knife = Problem.
Nutbar + Car = Problem.
Nutbar + Bomb = Problem.
Nutbar + Poison = Problem.
Nutbar + Unlimited Government Power = Problem.

See what is common in all of them? Nutbar. ...... We must regulate Nutbar.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: strongfp

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: strongfp

originally posted by: joemoe
a reply to: strongfp

The issue you missed also is that gun also saved over 200,000 people every year in the US. It's just not sensational news.

You are pulling that figure out of thin air.

You want to know what has save millions and millions year round on this planet?
Gun regulation and control.

I already proved that incorrect pages ago with source links to Australia's homicide staying the same or moving higher after the major gun control regulations passing. Killers moved to different weapons. Gun regulation did nothing for their homiide rate and my sources are the Aussie government themselves.

Try again.

Killers, yes people who are out to MURDER people.
You are ignoring the issue again, and shining the spotlight on another person or nation, ignoring the elephant in the room. That the United states has a gun issue, in 2012 almost 70% of all murders in the united states were with guns, here we are in 2015 and the united states has almost 300 mass shootings in less than 365 days out of the year.

How many does Australia have?

The point people are trying to get across is that more guns does not mean less death. The issue is more guns leads to easy death and more necessary violence and death.

Oh...ok. I get it now. So it is not really about decreasing the number of deaths, just how many die in one place?

Interesting debate method....

Why would I care to get rid of something that changes nothing? The issue is the person behind the tool used to kill....that is what I want to change.

ETA: Australia has none, just a higher homicide rate now than before using different weapons. But hey...at least no mass shootings right? Let the people die as long as they don't die together.....

Don't give the person the tool in the first place!
And a gun is not a tool, it's a weapon, it was invented to kill, it was made with the intentions of killing living organisms so the person using it has the upper hand in the situation of survival.

And the whole point of this thread is about mass shootings, and gun control, not about taking away the weapons.

You are ignoring ALL the statistics about how guns have had a negative impact on the US culture and society, and ignore ALL of it. Ignore that gun control is a solution, because it takes into account the PERSON USING THE GUNS.

ATTENTION EVERYBODY, PLEASE READ THIS:

(I took quite a lot of time making sure all the pics, links and videos were correctly placed and linked so I would appreciate it if you would take the time to read through it carefully and thoroughly. If an image is too small to read then right-click on it and select "View Image" - This works in Firefox, not sure about other browsers.)

From: www.vox.com...

No other developed country in the world has nearly the same rate of gun violence as does America. The US has nearly six times the number of gun homicides as Canada, more than seven times as Sweden, and nearly 16 times as Germany, according to UN data compiled by the Guardian. (These gun deaths are a big reason America has a much higher overall homicide rate, which includes non-gun deaths, than other developed nations.)

To understand why that is, there's another important statistic: The US has by far the highest private gun ownership rates in the world. The US civilian firearm ownership rate is 88.8 guns per 100 people, meaning there is almost one privately owned gun per American and more than one per American adult. The world's second-ranked country by gun ownership rate is Yemen, a quasi-failed state torn by civil war, where there are 54.8 guns per 100 people.

Another way of looking at that: Americans make up about 4.43 percent of the world's population, yet own roughly 42 percent of all the world's privately held firearms.

That does not, however, mean that every American adult actually owns guns. In fact, gun ownership is concentrated among a minority of the US population — as surveys from the Pew Research Center and General Social Survey suggest.

These three basic facts demonstrate America's unique gun culture. There is a very strong correlation between gun ownership and gun violence — a relationship that researchers argue is at least partly causal. And American gun ownership is beyond anything else in the world. At the same time, these guns are concentrated among a passionate minority, who are typically the loudest critics against any form of gun control and who scare legislators into voting against such measures.

More guns mean more gun deaths. Period.

The research on this is overwhelmingly clear. No matter how you look at the data, more guns means more gun deaths.

This is apparent when you look at state-by-state data within the United States, as this chart from Mother Jones demonstrates:

And it's clear when you look at the data across developed nations, as this other chart by Tewksbury Lab shows:

Opponents of gun control tend to point to other factors to explain America's unusual gun violence: mental illness, for example. Jonathan Metzl, a mental health expert at Vanderbilt University, told me that this is just not the case. People with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims, not perpetrators, of violence. And while it's true that an extraordinary amount of mass shooters (up to 60 percent) have some kind of psychiatric or psychological symptoms, Metzl points out that other factors are much better predictors of gun violence: substance abuse, poverty, history of violence, and, yes, access to guns.

Another argument you sometimes hear is that these shootings would happen less frequently if even more people had guns, thus enabling them to defend themselves from the shooting.

But, again, the data shows this is simply not true. High gun ownership rates do not reduce gun deaths, but rather tend to coincide with increases in gun deaths. And multiple simulations have demonstrated that most people, if placed in an active shooter situation while armed, will not be able to stop the situation, and may in fact do little more than get themselves killed in the process.

This video, from ABC News, shows one such simulation, in which people repeatedly fail to shoot an active shooter before they're shot:

The relationship between gun ownership rates and gun violence rates is well established. Reviews of the evidence by the Harvard School of Public Health's Injury Control Center have consistently found that when controlling for variables such as socioeconomic factors and other crime, places with more guns have more gun deaths.

"Within the United States, a wide array of empirical evidence indicates that more guns in a community leads to more homicide," David Hemenway, the Injury Control Research Center's director, wrote in Private Guns, Public Health.

Experts widely believe this is the consequence of America's relaxed laws and culture surrounding guns: Making more guns more accessible means more guns, and more guns means more deaths. Researchers have found this is true not just with gun homicides, but also with suicides, domestic violence, and even violence against police. To deal with those problems, America will have to not only make guns less accessible, but likely reduce the number of guns in the US as well.

But even with the outrage over gun massacres, the sense that enough is enough, and the clear evidence that the problem is America's high gun ownership rates, there hasn't been significant legislation to help solve the problem.

From: www.vox.com...

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

What are statistics though in the face of mass shootings every few months at this point?

I mean, statistically speaking, a hospital labor and delivery team could have a 99% success rate and pat themselves on the back. Realistically though, it may well mean they dropped one poor baby on it's head and it died.

Statistics are sometimes merely a rhetorical convenience. Or worse, manipulative drivel to stifle legitimate debate.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
So are you trying to claim that this Wikipedia page is incorrect, where it states that no permit or firearm registration is required by law in all those US states?

No, I am claiming you do not understand the law. You are still prohibited from knowingly selling a firearm to any prohibited individual.

originally posted by: joemoe
a reply to: ladyinwaiting

All these combination have caused mass murder in the past:

Nutbar + Gun = Problem.
Nutbar + Knife = Problem.
Nutbar + Car = Problem.
Nutbar + Bomb = Problem.
Nutbar + Poison = Problem.
Nutbar + Unlimited Government Power = Problem.

See what is common in all of them? Nutbar. ...... We must regulate Nutbar.

But statistics are not showing that mass murders are being perpetrated with those items. See the OP. Statistics are showing that mass murders are being perpetrated with guns. That's why we call them "shootings".