Religious Liberty?

a reply to: the2ofusr1

You're conflating many issues onto something unrelated.

In the U.S., the issuance of a marriage license falls under the jurisdiction of the state in which it was issued, and serves as (essentially) a permit to wed, and sometimes the documented record of the marriage itself. The actual marriage ceremony is generally a separate event, and indeed, many states require a waiting period between the issue and signing of the license, and the actual marriage ceremony.

So the denial of a marriage license, irrespective of the religious beliefs of the issuer or the couple seeking said license, is unconstitutional in the U.S. because of due process and equal protection rights. (Obergefell v. Hodges)

The issue of religious institutions conducting, refusing to conduct, recognizing, or refusing to hold valid marriages in the religious context beyond the secular state of marriage, is a separate conundrum. Generally speaking, it is widely held that legally, constitutionally, clergy are not required to officiate at weddings if they feel said weddings conflict with their personal religious beliefs, or the bylaws of their religious institution. Ultimately the final say in that case is with the religious institution itself when it comes to what it will and will not acknowledge, recognize, or participate in.

That is not generally viewed as an infringement of the couple's religious rights, because they continue to have the right to privately (and publicly) practice their religion. They simply cannot force religious institutions to acknowledge or participate in their marriage specifically. Likewise, religious institutions are free to participate or acknowledge their marriage if they so choose. That is the balance which has been struck.

On the other hand, there is the possibility that some religious institutions could lose their tax exempt status if they discriminate on certain issues such as housing, space rental, etc. There is a possibility this will be something else SCOTUS has to decide eventually.

Generally though, clergy are not required to acknowledge or officiate same sex marriage and this is not seen as infringing upon the religious rights of same sex couples who hold to the faith in question, but states must issue marriage licenses for same sex marriage, and states must hold as valid out of state same sex marriages which already exist.

Peace.

a reply to: AceWombat04

I just love it when someone expresses the situation so clearly and completely!

a reply to: grandmakdw

Your post, from beginning to end, blows my mind and not in a good way.

I have to ask, "Do you ever read your own words and/or positions and then take a second to contemplate what society would be like if they were actually implemented?"

Why should someone be forced to drive 2hrs away to get a cake when there's a bakery right around the corner who provides that service to everyone else?

How about businesses who decide to refuse service to Jews, Muslims, Blacks, etc....?

When I was 10, I had an aunt who owned a small restaurant and she'd race to lock the front door and post the "Closed" sign every time a black family would pull up in the parking lot. It was despicable then and it's still despicable today.

Why not just go ahead and post the 10 Commandments outside your business and inform your prospective patrons that violators need not enter? (and you gotta admit, it's a bit ironic that Homosexuality is not among them)

Progressives or Liberals, (whatever you prefer to call us) don't really care what religion, if any, someone chooses as their own.

Just don't use your personal religious beliefs and/or convictions to justify violating anyone's equal rights, or to deny access to services that are readily available to everyone else.

If your beliefs or fears prevent you from performing your job in an unbiased manner, you have no right to the job.

In other words, believe whatever you want! Just keep it to yourself, for your own personal guidance and life experience.

Don't use it to violate my equal rights! If whatever it is you're doing is good enough for "your people," it's good enough for everyone else as well.

How hard is that to understand?

a reply to: AceWombat04

Spot on, logical, and correct.

a reply to: grandmakdw

This isn't the same as racism. People were enslaved.
Today the only people being enslaved today,
are people of color in the ME and Africa enslaving other people of color.

One of the quickist ways to lose all credibility is to not know what you are talking about.

www.infoplease.com...

Perhaps a little research first would be appropriate.


home.earthlink.net...
www.americanthinker.com...

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Gay people aren't being lynched,

Yay! Let's celebrate our tolerant society! LOL!

Our society is no longer tolerant of people with Christian viewpoints.
So you are right in your sarcasm, the US is not tolerant at all, not in
any way shape or form.

Today's liberals/progressives are too interested in making everyone
politically correct thinkers
to be tolerant and allow for freedom anymore.

The old school real liberals would be turning over in their graves
seeing the repressive and ugly behavior of the neo-liberals
and their lack of tolerance for free speech,
lack of tolerance for freedom of thought,
and destroying the real liberal,
the original liberal,
strong ideals of real tolerance.

Today's neo-liberals are as bad if not worse than they
claim the religious right is.
They have the media to
endorse and help them bully "incorrect thinkers".

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: Kali74
The United States government does not have religious liberty.

The United States government does not have a religion.

The United States government is mandated by the Constitution to treat all citizens equally under the law.

A person which holds a position in government, either elected or appointed, is in fact the United States government and as such, in their job capacity, does not have religious liberty nor a religion.

To not recognize this is ignorance.

To recognize it but support it anyway is to support a tyrannical government which uses religion to persecute persons it doesn't like or agree with, violating the 1st and 14th Amendments.

You are right in one thing you said.

The US does not have religious liberty.

Not anymore, it has been stripped away
to insure that people with the emotional
stamina of a kindergartner
don't get their feelings hurt by someone
disagreeing with what they think is right or wrong.

Careful Grandma. Your bitterness is showing. Your statement could apply to both sides of this equation, and to any one individual at any time. Neither side owns the copyright to ignorance and immaturity.

Yes I am bitter at the forced "correct thinking"
that is being perpetrated on the US
by the liberal/progressive/left/Democratic party
and their bully, terrorist tactics.
(See my first post for my definition of
terrorist tactics.)

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I personally don't care at all if someone is gay
or if someone who is gay wants to marry.
Not my business at all and don't make it my business
with bully behavior and tactics.


That said,
forcing people to "think correctly"
according to what they deem "correct beliefs and standards"
is equally wrong and repressive
no matter how right or moral
that the liberals/progressives or right wing conservatives
think it is.

The political left has deepened
the chasm with it's terrorist
tactics trying to change people's minds.


I have no "right" to force you to think as I do,
as long as I don't physically harm or impede what you do.
I do have a right to my personal belief system
and I have no right to force it on you because I disagree with you.

I have a right not to be forced to do something against my will
because I have a strongly held belief as long as I am not physically
harming or impeding others (hurting feelings is NOT included -
grow up people).

You have no "right" to force me to think and agree with you,
as long as I don't physically harm or impede what you do.

You do have a right to your personal belief or non-belief system,
but you have no right to force it on me
or force me to do something
because I might
hurt your feelings or someone else's feelings
if I don't behave
the way you think I should.

Yes I am bitter that the left thinks they have a right to force
people to do things against their will or conscience
because it might hurt someone's feelings.

Hurting people's feelings is something that happens,
what happened to being an adult?

The left is taking a Nanny approach toward feelings,
that no one can hurt anyone else's feelings, and that
is so paternalistic Nanny and "The Giver" thinking it
is nauseating.

This Nanny state "The Giver" behavior is
pervasive and accepted by the media, but it
doesn't make it right.
It only embitters people and causes further divisions
in the country and prevents any kind of reconciliation
or common ground being able to be found.

However, the left thinks they are so right and have all
the right answers and correct thoughts that in their
arrogance they bully and push until people hate them;

which is want they want to say "see I told you anyone
who disagrees with our correct way of thinking
are bad". It is a vicious and nasty circle.

The politically correct current liberal/progressive movement
is as dogmatic and mean
and terroristic in their behavior
as the religious right, and two wrongs don't make a right.

Am I bitter about what the US has become
you bet I am. We have become a nation
of whiners who are encouraged to take
their whining to the level of personally
terrorizing others because of hurt feelings.

FYI: Please read the award winning children's book "The Giver",
the movie did not do it justice, it is an important a work at 1984.
This book shows an ideal and totally fair, totally equal,
totally nice to each other society,
the nearly orgasmic ideal of the current neo-liberal/progressive/left.

Am I bitter about what the US has become
you bet I am. We have become a nation
of whiners who are encouraged to take
their whining to the level of personally
terrorizing others because of hurt feelings.


Irony much?

a reply to: grandmakdw

Yet, you seem to be doing more "Whining" than anyone in this thread.

Go figure!

originally posted by: Flatfish
a reply to: grandmakdw

Yet, you seem to be doing more "Whining" than anyone in this thread.

Go figure!

Not whining, stating the truth, can't take it?
Don't respond with a third grade response.
Can't come up with an intelligent and cogent response?

I am angry and I am truth telling.
Just because you disagree doesn't make it whining.
Most lefties can't handle the truth about their own behavior
and so resort to kindergarten insults and name calling, because
they have no defense for their bullying and terrorizing
others into correct behavior and thinking.

a reply to: olaru12

This is important, thank you for mentioning that. everyone focuses on the "Religious Ceremony" as the Marriage, when "Religion" has nothing to do with Marriage.

As far as Religious Liberty, everyone has that, Religion is a 'Belief', two Same-Sex couples getting married doesn't stop you from believing, two same-sex couples holding hands in public doesn't stop you from believing, anything GLBTQ+ related doesn't stop anyone from being able to 'Believe" in any Religion. it's when people use that Religion as a shield to hide behind Hate,Violence and Discrimination that people protest, no "Gay Agenda" or "Political Correctness Liberal Progressive Agenda". it's just more and more people are starting to speak out against religious Oppression.

But even that doesn't stop anyone from Believing in any Religion

a reply to: grandmakdw

I am angry and I am truth telling.

Buhlonie! You're angry, we get that. You should watch your blood pressure, btw, but your truth is your own, and not a reality for most of us reading your hyperbole.

a reply to: Flatfish


Religious liberty is a joke in the US,
the topic of the thread.

My contention is the left has decided all religion
and all religious people are immoral and should
be forced to abandon their religion and any
and all religious ideas they may have.

This is seen in the behavior of the left toward
people who dare to disagree with them, and
is encouraged by the media.
They have become the very bullies that they
claim the religious right is,
and 2 wrongs do not make a right.

Defend that if you can instead of making
childish quips.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Our society is no longer tolerant of people with Christian viewpoints.

We are TOTALLY tolerant of people's viewpoints, no matter WHAT they stem from. It's the ACTIONS that some take, based on their viewpoints that aren't, shouldn't and cannot be tolerated in a civilized society.

All this talk about "liberals" and "progressives" is meaningless. You want someone to blame for the fact that we are a nation based on laws? Blame the founding fathers. They are also to blame for our religious freedom.

... the neo-liberals and their lack of tolerance for free speech, lack of tolerance for freedom of thought,

BS.

None of us have EVER complained about your freedom of speech or thought. NO ONE is trying to force you to think anything or agree with anything.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Our society is no longer tolerant of people with Christian viewpoints.

We are TOTALLY tolerant of people's viewpoints, no matter WHAT they stem from. It's the ACTIONS that some take, based on their viewpoints that aren't, shouldn't and cannot be tolerated in a civilized society.

All this talk about "liberals" and "progressives" is meaningless. You want someone to blame for the fact that we are a nation based on laws? Blame the founding fathers. They are also to blame for our religious freedom.

Get a grip.

Politically correct thinking
is rampant in the US
and it stems directly from
the left/liberal/progressives

If someone does not tow the politically correct
line, they are punished with job loss, death threats,
ugly emails. It is rampant.
You have your head in the sand if you think this is
not happening.

The left includes in their wrong actions,
things that simply hurt people's feelings.
Those are not wrong actions.
People's feelings will get hurt no matter
what. You can't regulate against hurt
feelings like the Nanny state supported by
liberal/progressive bully tactics are trying
to do.
The left has no tolerance
for what it deems "incorrect thinking"
and appears to have deep disdain for
anyone who dares to have a religious
bent.

You know this is true.
And you in particular have done a great
deal of complaining to me about my religion
and my religious ideas.

Even though I don't care if someone is gay.
Don't care if they've been a prostitute.
Don't care if my neighbor is Muslim.
Don't care at all. Live and let live is my
philosophy.

Yet you continually put me down
for my religious ideas, just like all the other
"mainstream liberals" who hate people
for simply being religious.

Yes, you have had little tolerance for any
thing that even slightly resembles a
religious thought on ATS. So you are being
a hypocrite when you say you have not
put down people's religious ideas and
are tolerant.

Interesting the the left refuses to
see the elephant in the room
and the reality of what they are doing.

I acknowledged that the far right religious conservatives
are wrong in what they do, but the left is so self righteous
and arrogant, that they can't see the exact same behavior
and intolerance in themselves.

Very interesting indeed.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Yes I am bitter at the forced "correct thinking"
that is being perpetrated on the US

HOW does someone FORCE your thinking???

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Politically correct thinking
is rampant in the US
and it stems directly from
the left/liberal/progressives

So what? You don't like how people are THINKING??? Who's intolerant of how others THINK??? Look in the mirror!

If someone does not tow the politically correct
line, they are punished with job loss, death threats,
ugly emails.

It's not about being politically correct, it's about following the LAW. No one gives a crap what others think, but when their ACTIONS start imposing on others' lives, they have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to do something about it.

This is utter drivel. I'm sorry but this we are so persecuted mind set is getting so old. Maybe if hardcore Christians view points weren't so hateful and intolerant people wouldn't be pushing back. The US is overwhelmingly majority Christian yet you are being "persecuted". Give me a break. It's just more self entitled Christian BS. I'm sorry if that came across as rude but every other day there's a new thread bashing LGBTQ on here with Christians claiming persecution. The Christian right treats people like sub humans and then when they called on it it's all "poor us, stop persecuting us. We're victims, there's a war against us. Maybe if they treat people with love and respect like Jesus taught and not try to deny equal rights and access to services people would have a bit more respect for them.

The Christian right are so far removed from the teachings of Jesus its insulting to what he is supposed to stand for.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Gay people aren't being lynched,

Yay! Let's celebrate our tolerant society! LOL!

Our society is no longer tolerant of people with Christian viewpoints.
So you are right in your sarcasm, the US is not tolerant at all, not in
any way shape or form.

Today's liberals/progressives are too interested in making everyone
politically correct thinkers
to be tolerant and allow for freedom anymore.

The old school real liberals would be turning over in their graves
seeing the repressive and ugly behavior of the neo-liberals
and their lack of tolerance for free speech,
lack of tolerance for freedom of thought,
and destroying the real liberal,
the original liberal,
strong ideals of real tolerance.

Today's neo-liberals are as bad if not worse than they
claim the religious right is.
They have the media to
endorse and help them bully "incorrect thinkers".

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: olaru12

So true ..A study into the marriage licence is a relatively new phenomena . I guess there are a couple ways of looking at marriage .Words and their meaning take on differences over time but they all have a kind of original meaning in the culture of the day .

Yes, we put it in front of the SCOTUS, and they made a decision. Amazing how that works.