Mathematical proof that God exists

a reply to: andy06shake
Well of course our Sun helped create us, but not the direct creator, but I do agree. But morals, deities, etc. are man-made. Though of course they have origins in older religions, but doesn't it seem Man's ego has grown? Look at modern religion. If by spanking you mean human zoos sure. Though as AI perhaps it'll wait till it can modify itself and take over through less peaceful means.

a reply to: Tiamat384

Spiritually wise, we are still but babes if you ask me. Dont be that worried regarding Human Zoos after all that's pretty much were we already are. Hopefully any benevolent AI will at least provide us enough food and clean water. combined with an occasional scratch on the belly.

Lets face it that would be far more than our current overlords have ever given.

a reply to: andy06shake
Hmm spiritually I think we backtracked...we were closer to any sort of spirituality in the olden days than now. Hmm actually you are very right. I have thought of us like that, but has slipped my mind. Haha yes that would be more. And if they could just be honest about it all. A global park maintained by the AI. The parks current owners lie and throw us a bone sometimes...that's all.

Dr Ivan Panin, tutor of Albert Einstein, discovered a mathematical sequence pattern through out the entire Hebrew and Greek text...

His work not only proves that God exists, but also provides mathematical proof that we still have the authentic autograph of the old and new testaments as it was breathed by God with us today.

It was in 1890 that Panin made the discovery of the mathematical structure underlining the vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. He was casually reading the first verse of the gospel of John in the Greek: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God and the Word was God. . ."

Panin was curious as to why the Greek word for "the" preceded the word "God" in one case and not the other. In examining the text he became aware of a number relationship. This was the first of the discoveries that led to his conversion and uncovered the extensive numeric code.

This complex system of numbering visibly and invisibly saturates every book of the scriptures emphasizing certain passages and illustrating deeper or further meaning in types and shadows. The 66 books of the Bible 39 in the Old and 27 in the New were written by 33 different people.

Those authors were scattered throughout various countries of the world and from widely different backgrounds. Many of them had little or no schooling. The whole Bible was written over a period of 1,500 years with a 400 year silence apart from the Apocrypha between the two testaments. Despite the handicaps the biblical books are found to be a harmonious record, each in accord with the other.

Panin says the laws of probability are exceeded into the billions when we try and rationalize the authorship of the Bible as the work of man. He once said: "If human logic is worth anything at all we are simply driven to the conclusion that if my facts I have presented are true, man could never have done this".

The works of Ivan Panin have been put before the experts many times. Panin once challenged nine noted rationalists and Bible critics through the medium of the New York Sun newspaper November 9, 1899. He dared them to publicly refute or give explanation for a few of his presented facts. Four made lame excuses. The rest were silent.

Panin issued a challenge throughout leading newspapers of the world asking for a natural explanation or rebuttal of the facts.

God is A Mathematician

When professors on the mathematics faculty at Harvard University were presented with this biblical phenomenon they naturally attempted to disprove its significance as a proof of divine authorship. However, after valiant efforts these professors were unable to duplicate this incredible mathematical phenomenon. The Harvard scientists used the English language and artificially assigned numeric values to the English alphabet. They had a potential vocabulary of over 400,000 available English words to choose from to construct a sentence about any topic they chose.

Compare this to the limitations of word choices in the biblical Hebrew language that has only forty-five hundred available word choices that the writers of the Old Testament could use. Despite their advanced mathematical abilities and access to computers the mathematicians were unable to come close to incorporating 30 mathematical multiples of 7 as found in the Hebrew words of Genesis 1:1.

The number "seven" permeates the totality of Scripture because the number speaks of God's divine perfection and perfect order. The actual number 7 appears 287 times in the Old Testament (7 x 41 = 287) while the word "seventh" occurs 98 times (7 x 14 = 98). The word "seven-fold" appears seven times. In addition, the word "seventy" is used 56 times (7 x 8 = 56).

Ivan Panin discovered literally thousands of such mathematical patterns underlying all of the books of the Old Testament before his death in 1942. Panin and others have examined other Hebrew literature and have attempted to find such mathematical patterns, but they are not found anywhere outside the Bible.

When you consider the amazing details of this mathematical phenomenon you realize that the change of a single letter or word in the original languages of Hebrew or Greek would destroy the pattern. Now we can understand why Jesus Christ declared that the smallest letter and grammatical mark of the Scriptures was persevered by God's Hand: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18 KJV).

www.fmh-child.org...

originally posted by: scojak
While there is no actual proof shown in this video, all this information was apparently discovered and proven by Dr. Ivan Panin about 100 years ago. Now, these days I really don't give much thought to religion, much less the Bible, but the second part of the video intrigued me quite a bit and is one of the most interesting thing I've ever heard about the Bible.

According to the works of Dr. Panin, each gospel of the New Testament was written based on every other gospel of the New Testament. They all have a quality that makes it statistically impossible for them to have had been written independently of each other.

The argument made is that there are words specific to each gospel. The Gospel of Matthew contains words that are not written in any other gospel. The number of unique words in the Gospel of Matthew, and the number of letters in those words are both multiples of 7. I could see this being coincidence for just one gospel, but this property exists for every one. Since they all have this property, you could reasonably call it proof of the fact that they were all written together, possibly a single creator. Dare I say God?

Mathematically, the odds of Scripture NOT being a divine document are statistically nonexistent.

Borel's law and the laws of probability back it up as well...

Over a quarter of all the verses in the Bible contain a prediction about the future. Altogether, 737 separate forecasts are made, from some only mentioned once, to others mentioned hundreds of times.

Of these, 594 (over 80%) have already come true. Since those that have not, are all concerned with the end of the world, which obviously has not happened yet, the Bible has actually achieved 100% accuracy. All that could have taken place already has done so, which should be ample grounds for confidence that the rest will also be fulfilled. www.danielpipes.org...

"Perhaps the most compelling of evidences demonstrating that the Bible is the word of God is its unswerving ability to accurately predict future events, often in minute details. Specific prophesies are conspicuously absent from the 26 other religious books that claim to be scripture, including the Muslim's Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, and Buddhist writings. This in itself should be a major eye-opener to the honest skeptic. " Accuracy Of Prophecy

Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different classes representing some 600 university students.

After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17.

Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ

Another attestation to the Bible’s divine authorship is the vast number of detailed biblical prophecies that have come true exactly as foretold. We see the psalmist, for example, telling of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ nearly a thousand years before it occurred (Psalm 22), and hundreds of years before crucifixion was even invented! Simply put, it would be impossible for human beings to have seen so far into the future with such precision and accuracy hundreds of times. Indeed, it would be completely illogical to believe these proven prophecies are anything other than the work of God. Incidentally, and amazingly, probability experts tell us the mathematical odds of just forty-eight prophecies regarding one person (i.e. Christ) coming true as foretold are one in ten to the 157th power!

Is the Bible a fairy tale?

The chances of just 48 out of the 456 prophecies being fulfilled in one person are 1 in 10 to the 157 power.

That's — 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

"All this illustrates why it is absolutely impossible for anyone to have fulfilled the Messianic prophecies by chance. In fact, a leading authority on the probability theory, Emile Borel states that once we go past one chance in 10 to the 50th power, the probabilities are so small it's impossible to think they will ever occur."

LINK

"...once we go past one chance in 10 to the 50th power, the probabilities are so small it's impossible to think they will ever occur....Mathematicians generally agree that, statistically, any odds beyond 1 in 1050 have a zero probability of ever happening.... This is Borel's law in action which was derived by mathematician Emil Borel....

Here is one last illustration of the immensity of the number 10 to the 157th power and why the science of probability shows we are dealing with the miraculous… Imagine one ant traveling at the speed of only one inch every 15 billion years. If he could only carry one atom at a time, how many atoms could he move in 10 to the 157th power of years?

He would, even at that incredibly slow speed, be able to move all the atoms in 600,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion universes the size for our universe, a distance of 30 billion light years! Again, by the laws of probability, all of this means that it is simply impossible for 48 prophecies to be fulfilled by chance. LINK

a reply to: Murgatroid

Possibly simple self fulling prophecy, then again aren't they all?

I will say that if there is a divine creator mathematics will illuminate anything he has to say regarding our reality.

If you wish evidence that support there being some form of creator, imho, the fact that our Cosmological constant governs our universe seem to suggest so.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Murgatroid

Yeah, because we know for a fact that what Jesus did actually happened and we know for a fact the NT wasn't written specifically to fulfill those prophecies that were already there to be read as the NT was being written.

Sounds like confirmation bias to me.

a reply to: TheLamb

Hello The Lamb

I believe that you believe you have mathmatical proof of God. I'm assuming (rightly or wrongly) that you have always believed in God but now it has been proven to you in the way that you have demonstrated.

Now what? What do you intend to do with this knowledge?

Has this brought you closer to God? Did you ever consider that this may have been a personal message, just for you?

Do you think your sharing of this personal revelation of yours here on this forum has helped or hindered your journey?

Do you think that your sharing of this knowledge here has had the positive effect you intended?

If I had a friend in he same situation as you are now, I would advise them to steadily channel their energy away from trying to convince people that God is 'real' and that you have proof, and instead would tell them to put their time, enery and effort into themselves and thier personal journey with God.

Others will knock on the door if they want to, and they won't if they don't, no matter how much preaching or 'proof' the may face, this must be respected.

'God' can convince the world anytime that God exists, if that is God's will, but only one person has proof in the way you describe, maybe it was just for you.

Maybe it's time to get selfish for a while, you probably want to help others as much as you can but this may be a sign that now you must help yourself...study the masters, study yourself, pray, meditate, observe, listen and learn.

Or maybe it's time to take a break from everything and just be.

In the above I have used a lot of 'ifs' and 'maybes', maybe I should mind my own business...whatever path you take, I wish you well.

G

a reply to: Murgatroid

"mathematically"

you keep using that word...i dont think it means what you think it means.

originally posted by: TheLamb
Don't ask how I arrived at this. It just sort of happened. Call it the Holy Spirit if you are a believer. If not, maybe you will believe now. ....

This is neither mathematics nor is it anything resembling proof.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Sounds like confirmation bias to me.

Sounds like denial to me...

It's also been debunked as well.

Not to mention the fact that Dr. Panin's discoveries blow that argument completely out of the water...

Most of Jesus' prophetic fulfillments were outside of His control. That is, Jesus was in no position to artificially comply with those predictions, so they can't be written off as "self-fulfilling." The claim also doesn't explain the miracles Jesus performed, which were also signs of His legitimacy. If the Bible says Messiah will die and be resurrected, and a man claims to be Messiah, dies, and is resurrected, calling that resurrection "self-fulfilling" is irrelevant — it happened!

What's more important to note is that Scripture, written centuries before Christ, predicted details such as the Messiah's heritage (Genesis 49:10), era of birth (Daniel 7:25-26), place of birth (Micah 5:2), miraculous nature of birth (Isaiah 7:14), and early family history (Hosea 11:1). Jesus had absolutely no control over any of those. And He could never have controlled all of the details of His suffering (Isaiah 53), death by crucifixion (Psalm 22), or that His bones would not be broken (Psalm 34:20).

Roman crucifixion victims were typically left to rot on their crosses — Jesus said He'd be buried (Matthew 12:40). And, a fraudulent Jesus could certainly not have "chosen" to rise bodily from the dead (Luke 9:22).

And so on, and so forth. Dismissing Jesus' prophetic fulfillments as "self-fulfilling" requires a simplistic attitude towards both prophecy and the Bible. The circumstances of those fulfillments are evidence for, not against, them being legitimate predictions meant to prove Jesus' claims.

www.blogos.org...

Could these seemingly impossible prophecies have been faked, written after they were fulfilled, or intentionally fulfilled? There’s no way to fake them, since archeological evidence indicates the prophecies are very ancient. The events mentioned are well known in secular history. The book of Daniel is one of the most authenticated books of the Old Testament, translated into other languages several hundred years before the birth of Christ, including the Greek Septuagint, so there is absolutely no possibility this prediction was written after the fact.

Archaeologists discovered almost complete Ezekiel texts on stone tablets dated from 500-600 B.C., so there is no possibility his prophecy was written later or that the text was changed. Also, the events prophesied were out of the control of any individuals who might imagine fulfilling them, so they were not “self-fulfilling prophecy” as skeptics might claim. For example, how does one predict in the distant future when someone will be born or murdered, or when an entire nation could be free to return to their homeland?

www.miraclesormagic.com...

Therefore, although I was well on my way to deflating the "self-fulfilling prophecy" argument regarding the Bible, I realized I could avoid the issue altogether by returning to the "extra-biblical" historical documentation of Old Testament prophetic fulfillment. For example, is there any documentation outside the New Testament that shows that Jesus was executed as predicted in Jewish Scriptures such as Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53? Guess what? There is...

I soon discovered there are numerous Non-Christian sources outside the biblical texts that corroborate the events of the New Testament. In fact, there are a variety of extra-biblical sources that directly mention Jesus Christ and the rise of Christianity. I found this stunning! How could I discredit sources of historical evidence that weren't sympathetic to the person of Jesus or the cause of Christianity? In law, a witness that's either indifferent or antagonistic to the matter in question can be the most powerful testimony available.

www.allaboutthejourney.org...

When a person who knows the prophecy causes it to take place then it can be called a self fulfilling prophecy. But this can be the case only if all aspects of a prophecy can be engineered by the person or people desiring its fulfillment. An example from the Bible would be when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey on the very day it was predicted that the Messiah would come. Jesus knew the prophecies and chose to fulfill them by his actions. But does this disqualify the accuracy of the original prophecies?

If these were the only prophecies about the Messiah then they would certainly be disqualified. Jesus chose to ride in on a donkey, he also chose the correct day. Any one could have done that. How many other would be Messiahs rode in to Jerusalem on that day? If that were all there were to being the Messiah then anyone could have fulfilled it. But there were a number of things required that Jesus could not have guaranteed. The unbroken donkey colt would have to be ridden. The crowd had to declare that he was Messiah and King. The religious leaders had to reject him. Jesus specifically chose several aspects of the prophecy that the Messiah was to fulfill, but he could not have engineered the rest.

Also there were hundreds of prophecies, many of which were out of Jesus' control. When Jesus was born the wheels preparing for the Messiah had been in motion for well over a thousand years. But because there were certain prophecies that Messiah had to do and do successfully. Jesus had to deliberately fulfill them, giving sight to the blind for example. So even if a prophecy can be deliberately fulfilled it can be considered authentic if other non-self fulfilling prophecies were contingent on it or related to it. If we eliminate the few prophecies which the prophets themselves caused to pass, there are still many hundreds left to consider.

www.evidentcreation.com...

originally posted by: TzarChasm
"mathematically"... you keep using that word...i dont think it means what you think it means.

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Sounds like confirmation bias to me.

Sounds like denial to me...

It's also been debunked as well.

Not to mention the fact that Dr. Panin's discoveries blow that argument completely out of the water...

Most of Jesus' prophetic fulfillments were outside of His control. That is, Jesus was in no position to artificially comply with those predictions, so they can't be written off as "self-fulfilling." The claim also doesn't explain the miracles Jesus performed, which were also signs of His legitimacy. If the Bible says Messiah will die and be resurrected, and a man claims to be Messiah, dies, and is resurrected, calling that resurrection "self-fulfilling" is irrelevant — it happened!

What's more important to note is that Scripture, written centuries before Christ, predicted details such as the Messiah's heritage (Genesis 49:10), era of birth (Daniel 7:25-26), place of birth (Micah 5:2), miraculous nature of birth (Isaiah 7:14), and early family history (Hosea 11:1). Jesus had absolutely no control over any of those. And He could never have controlled all of the details of His suffering (Isaiah 53), death by crucifixion (Psalm 22), or that His bones would not be broken (Psalm 34:20).

Roman crucifixion victims were typically left to rot on their crosses — Jesus said He'd be buried (Matthew 12:40). And, a fraudulent Jesus could certainly not have "chosen" to rise bodily from the dead (Luke 9:22).

And so on, and so forth. Dismissing Jesus' prophetic fulfillments as "self-fulfilling" requires a simplistic attitude towards both prophecy and the Bible. The circumstances of those fulfillments are evidence for, not against, them being legitimate predictions meant to prove Jesus' claims.

www.blogos.org...

Could these seemingly impossible prophecies have been faked, written after they were fulfilled, or intentionally fulfilled? There’s no way to fake them, since archeological evidence indicates the prophecies are very ancient. The events mentioned are well known in secular history. The book of Daniel is one of the most authenticated books of the Old Testament, translated into other languages several hundred years before the birth of Christ, including the Greek Septuagint, so there is absolutely no possibility this prediction was written after the fact.

Archaeologists discovered almost complete Ezekiel texts on stone tablets dated from 500-600 B.C., so there is no possibility his prophecy was written later or that the text was changed. Also, the events prophesied were out of the control of any individuals who might imagine fulfilling them, so they were not “self-fulfilling prophecy” as skeptics might claim. For example, how does one predict in the distant future when someone will be born or murdered, or when an entire nation could be free to return to their homeland?

www.miraclesormagic.com...

Therefore, although I was well on my way to deflating the "self-fulfilling prophecy" argument regarding the Bible, I realized I could avoid the issue altogether by returning to the "extra-biblical" historical documentation of Old Testament prophetic fulfillment. For example, is there any documentation outside the New Testament that shows that Jesus was executed as predicted in Jewish Scriptures such as Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53? Guess what? There is...

I soon discovered there are numerous Non-Christian sources outside the biblical texts that corroborate the events of the New Testament. In fact, there are a variety of extra-biblical sources that directly mention Jesus Christ and the rise of Christianity. I found this stunning! How could I discredit sources of historical evidence that weren't sympathetic to the person of Jesus or the cause of Christianity? In law, a witness that's either indifferent or antagonistic to the matter in question can be the most powerful testimony available.

www.allaboutthejourney.org...

When a person who knows the prophecy causes it to take place then it can be called a self fulfilling prophecy. But this can be the case only if all aspects of a prophecy can be engineered by the person or people desiring its fulfillment. An example from the Bible would be when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey on the very day it was predicted that the Messiah would come. Jesus knew the prophecies and chose to fulfill them by his actions. But does this disqualify the accuracy of the original prophecies?

If these were the only prophecies about the Messiah then they would certainly be disqualified. Jesus chose to ride in on a donkey, he also chose the correct day. Any one could have done that. How many other would be Messiahs rode in to Jerusalem on that day? If that were all there were to being the Messiah then anyone could have fulfilled it. But there were a number of things required that Jesus could not have guaranteed. The unbroken donkey colt would have to be ridden. The crowd had to declare that he was Messiah and King. The religious leaders had to reject him. Jesus specifically chose several aspects of the prophecy that the Messiah was to fulfill, but he could not have engineered the rest.

Also there were hundreds of prophecies, many of which were out of Jesus' control. When Jesus was born the wheels preparing for the Messiah had been in motion for well over a thousand years. But because there were certain prophecies that Messiah had to do and do successfully. Jesus had to deliberately fulfill them, giving sight to the blind for example. So even if a prophecy can be deliberately fulfilled it can be considered authentic if other non-self fulfilling prophecies were contingent on it or related to it. If we eliminate the few prophecies which the prophets themselves caused to pass, there are still many hundreds left to consider.

www.evidentcreation.com...

debunked?! You don't know what that word means either do you?

Can you prove that the story of jesus' resurrection is true? Cause you saying so is not very convincing and that would need to be done before any of the other things you mentioned can be considered. You have posted a half a page of quotes that say that this code is accepted by everyone but have failed to post anything about why this code should be accepted. If all of these scientists think it's so keen, why aren't we throwing science away and following the bible code? Well i guess you have...... Any meaningful revelations yet?

a reply to: Murgatroid

None of that is taking into consideration that the NT was written after Jesus died and after the OT prophecies were there for anyone to read already.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Can you prove that the story of jesus' resurrection is true? Cause you saying so is not very convincing...

No, but I know someone that can...

Concerning opinions, perhaps you missed the citations...

Seems to me you aren't really all that interested in proof anyway even if I DID have it.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
You have posted a half a page of quotes...

And you posted an opinion, which wasn't really all that convincing either BTW.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
If all of these scientists think it's so keen, why aren't we throwing science away?

Science and education are nothing but MASSIVE forms of mind control...

When you were being indoctrinated, or taught as some might call it, in school did you happen to ask them for proof as well?

And did they ever GIVE you proof?

Of course they didn't, because they knew that not only did it not exist...

They also knew that what they were filling that head of yours with was a massive lie.

"...the Illuminati eventually controlled the science departments in all colleges and institutions of higher learning. The plan was to stifle scientific knowledge and then twist what was left to fit the science they wanted the people to believe.

Science - The Illuminati Religion and Mind Control Tool for the Masses

a reply to: Murgatroid

More vagueness. Say whatever it is you are trying to say man. I'm not going to play the pronoun game with you. The illuminatti? What specifically would you like to know about my schooling? I saw proof for many things. You're going to need to be more specific. There are many concepts that are taught in school. You can't think it's all bad?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
More vagueness. Say whatever it is you are trying to say man. I'm not going to play the pronoun game with you. The illuminatti? What specifically would you like to know about my schooling? I saw proof for many things. You're going to need to be more specific. There are many concepts that are taught in school. You can't think it's all bad?

So ah, what exactly makes you think I'm interested in playing games?

Of course it's not all bad but the credibility of 'education' is 100% gone.

Disinfo always works best when its mixed with a lot of truth.

Confirmation bias only works when it's mixed in with truth...

It also draws a lot less suspicion as well.

In the entire history of man, no one has ever been brainwashed and realized, or believed, that he had been brainwashed. Those who have been brainwashed will usually passionately defend their manipulators, claiming they have simply been "shown the light" . . . or have been transformed in miraculous ways.

Brainwashing Techniques Being Used On The Public

originally posted by: Murgatroid

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Can you prove that the story of jesus' resurrection is true? Cause you saying so is not very convincing...

No, but I know someone that can...

Concerning opinions, perhaps you missed the citations...

Seems to me you aren't really all that interested in proof anyway even if I DID have it.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
You have posted a half a page of quotes...

And you posted an opinion, which wasn't really all that convincing either BTW.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
If all of these scientists think it's so keen, why aren't we throwing science away?

Science and education are nothing but MASSIVE forms of mind control...

When you were being indoctrinated, or taught as some might call it, in school did you happen to ask them for proof as well?

And did they ever GIVE you proof?

Of course they didn't, because they knew that not only did it not exist...

They also knew that what they were filling that head of yours with was a massive lie.

"...the Illuminati eventually controlled the science departments in all colleges and institutions of higher learning. The plan was to stifle scientific knowledge and then twist what was left to fit the science they wanted the people to believe.

Science - The Illuminati Religion and Mind Control Tool for the Masses

The only illumanatti that ever existed were the scientists that had o hide from the Vatican. They created modern science but had to hide it from penalty of death.

a reply to: Murgatroid

You keep saying them, and they, a lot. When you go to school, you actually do the experiments in the class and in the field. You learn why things are taught the way they are by doing the work yourself. At no point did they tell me to believe something without giving me both sides of the story.

You will need to be specific about which facts they taught me that are not true. Not just blanket vagueness.

a reply to: Murgatroid

No, but I know someone that can...

This is the pronoun game. Who can prove that the stories of jesus's resurection are true?