Is Sanders part of the establishment or is the Dem establishment that far left?

originally posted by: neo96
Yeah we all know the leff' big 'plan'.

Continuing fooling people in to supporting the WELFARE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

Creating more programs that can't pay foremelves, and deluding their followers in to thinking their government exists to pay their bills.

Guess what ?

The was the plan the current guy has been using for the last seven years.

Worked out so awesome hasn't it ?

It never ceases to amaze me how Bernie supporters believe that giving our corrupt Congress -- with ZERO oversight -- $18 trillion to line their pockets somehow serves their best interest and does not play right into the Establishment's hands.

How quickly they forget all the 'phantom districts' that received Obama's stimulus funds, and how Congress never did quite explain how so much money was mismanaged.

originally posted by: TonyS
Worse, this is a Presidential election in which 43 states will be holding the elections with out of date, broken, hackable voting machines! My guess is that this will be the most hotly contested, (legally speaking) election ever with all three or four sides crying foul and "rigged" and there will be recounts after recounts. It could end up being thrown to the House to make the final call. The last thing any winner will get is a "Popular" mandate.

In a three-way race with Trump, the republican nominee, and Bernie Sanders, Bernie will win by a sizable margin.

And not to dismiss your very good point about our unsecure elections' systems, but I spent about a year researching the election reforms after the 2000 and 2004 elections. It seems to me the election systems in Florida and Ohio were seized under the guise of those reforms.

If you can control the vote in Florida and Ohio, you can rig the entire election.

a reply to: TonyS

I think they're busy destroying the Republican field to try to make sure the candidate they think they can destroy the easiest is the one that gets selected. Either that or the one who is closest to the DC elitist establishment pick.

There are 17 candidates, and not all of them can be "in" with the establishment enough to be remotely acceptable. So they are spending more time whittling that field down than worrying about the Democrat pick ... besides a true socialist will always concentrate more power into the hands of government and even if Bernie is an "outsider," more power into DC will always serve their purposes eventually.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TonyS

I think they're busy destroying the Republican field to try to make sure the candidate they think they can destroy the easiest is the one that gets selected. Either that or the one who is closest to the DC elitist establishment pick.

There are 17 candidates, and not all of them can be "in" with the establishment enough to be remotely acceptable. So they are spending more time whittling that field down than worrying about the Democrat pick ... besides a true socialist will always concentrate more power into the hands of government and even if Bernie is an "outsider," more power into DC will always serve their purposes eventually.

Personally, I think they can all be "in" with the Establishment and i operate on the premise that the two parties work hand in hand to fill the agenda of ONE global Establishment.

Sanders is obviously left of the establishment. The problem is, he's pushing for true liberal ideals, and the only way to really attack sanders is to say 'we don't actually believe in liberalism, it's all a farce.' It is difficult to attack someone actually trying to enact the principles your party supposedly represents, without attacking those principles, which is self-defeating.

It's worth noting that, while sanders is a Socialist, no doubt, the actual policies he is proposing are no further left than Keynes, ffs! i mean, when Keynes is your radical
Left, it's safe to say your country has swung pretty far to the right.

Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon would be too far left for today's Democratic Party. Hillary Clinton is a solid, middle-of-the-road 1950's Republican. Being a liberal from the 60's, it's amazing to me how far right our politics have been shoved by the Reagan corporate Sell-out.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: TonyS
Worse, this is a Presidential election in which 43 states will be holding the elections with out of date, broken, hackable voting machines! My guess is that this will be the most hotly contested, (legally speaking) election ever with all three or four sides crying foul and "rigged" and there will be recounts after recounts. It could end up being thrown to the House to make the final call. The last thing any winner will get is a "Popular" mandate.

In a three-way race with Trump, the republican nominee, and Bernie Sanders, Bernie will win by a sizable margin.

And not to dismiss your very good point about our unsecure elections' systems, but I spent about a year researching the election reforms after the 2000 and 2004 elections. It seems to me the election systems in Florida and Ohio were seized under the guise of those reforms.

If you can control the vote in Florida and Ohio, you can rig the entire election.

And who "seized" those elections?

a reply to: TonyS

To explain what I found and how I reached my conclusion will take a lengthy explanation and be way off-topic. Would you mind if I send you a private message when I have a chance to type it all out?

a reply to: MotherMayEye

I wouldn't mind...I'd be delighted!
thanks

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
AND,If Trump splits with republicans and fractures the conservative so badly that Bernie could win

I wondered what Trump was up to with his acting even too exaggerated for hate radio. When this happens, we can't blame TPTB for the prank, because neither accepted big money. Have the Aquarians activated to start the Second American Revolution? I foresee a tinfoil shortage on the Whole Earth.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Finally someone nails it...
That has been my perception too, and I've been an expat living in Europe. When recently returning to the US for a while, I was shocked by how many people are hooked on extremist right-wing ideas, with Fox (which is 98% pure fearmongering trash) and talk radio ghosts like Limbaugh streaming through them. You can't have a reasonable argument with most of them any more, they are divided along party lines, let alone dispute a dogma that trickle-down economics work.

And this was New England, peaceful and prosperous. A friend from Tennessee writes he recently went to a church event where mostly Republicans attend, but their pastor was sick or something. Out of curiosity he went to hear with the replacement pastor who isn't as rabid as the regular one... He inquired if Democrats may also come into the fold. He was told "we ain't gonna let baby killers in."

The neoliberal model does not work, and the more a country embraces it, the poorer the masses are, the higher the general level of discontent. It is really softened by social policies in Germany, Holland (I don't know enough about France). But the companies from the same countries pursue and their governments enforce totally neoliberal policies abroad, such as in the Eastern countries of the EU.

As a backlash, we have a re-emergence of Fascism in the East of the EU and that will be their undoing. (And Putin actively supports all the extreme right of the EU).

I like Sanders, but I would still like to hear about his foreign policy vision. I think in the coming decade we are facing a social rearrangement on the scale of the French Revolution. Reforms may prevent it but let's face it, without some social policies (sadly overdue in the US), the entire class of young people are alienated badly. They are up to their ears in debt (or their parents are, or both) for the same thing that was available for a few months of salaries in the 50's, with not enough jobs, temp agencies scamming labor rights and so on.

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: MotherMayEye

I wouldn't mind...I'd be delighted!
thanks

Ah!! I finally sent it to you.

Sorry for the delay!

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Thanks...I'll take a look-see.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: Metallicus
He is a career politician. He still seems far-left for the Dems, but the entire party is moving to the left and the Republicans move further and further to the middle or at least what WAS the middle.

The entire country is being dragged to the Progressive side of things due to the brainwashing of the younger generation in our liberal controlled education system and a left leaning mainstream media.

Bernie's popularity is a natural progression as the world moves towards centralized, totalitarian control and the inevitable loss of personal liberty that accompanies that movement.

This is the opposite of the reality.

There is no real "left" in the US, based on what left actually means historically.

Point of reality, the Democrats on a global scale are considered center or EVEN center right. The Republicans are without a doubt fairly far right on a global political scale.

Yes, Sanders begins to move a bit more left than the Democrat mean, for sure, but even he is not a true far leftist, as in communist or something else.

Ask Europe. Sanders is not a far leftist AT ALL.

For the record, he's an unapologetic socialist. I don't mean "hurr hurr hurr, let's call him a socialist because it sounds evil". He's an actual socialist, as am I. And he doesn't normally run as a Democrat; he usually runs as an Independent.

Yes, this is why I say he moves towards real left. But he is more of an American socialist, which is socialism light, for better or worse.

I concede your point. My point regarding Democrats or the normal platform generally is fairly accurate though.

I agree & no problem there.

I used to laugh at people who constantly said President Obama was a socialist. Because I'm an actual socialist & his policies are nothing like mine! lol And I agree that Sanders isn't a hardcore socialist, or at least he wouldn't be able to admit it publicly. America's not ready for strong forms of socialism.

As an example, I'd make sure that all new lifesaving medical advances were freely available to all of humankind. Then every new cure or procedure would instantly start saving people globally. Every new development would be beneficial for all humans. Same goes for new agriculture techniques, new manufacturing techniques, new ways to harness energy more efficiently, etc. And I want a strong social safety net, so people can focus on family/community life or pursue their dreams without fear of economic ruin if they fail.

I don't care about intellectual property rights unless it's for something frivolous. As in, everyone can share in the benefits of lifesaving advances, but frivolous "wants" can be patented. So I guess I'm a socialist when it comes to needs & important stuff, but a capitalist when it comes to wants & hobbies (and I still support open source & public domain initiatives then).

Sorry for slow response.

I might consider myself a moderate socialist, or at least on some issues. When it comes to economics and also being anti-empire and anti-colonialism, I consider myself to be a 'real' leftist in the sense of being for economic equality and against empire, exploitation, pro-rich policies, poverty wages, etc.

I also believe that certain key social services and investments should not be privatized, or at least very limited in such: education, health care, etc. Anything with the commons and essential things that people and society need. I also believe we should have truly universal health care and education.

As far as foreign policy, the Democrat Party is not leftist AT ALL. Across the past 60 years, just like the Republicans, the Democrat elite have supported endless wars, covert ops, regime change, basically neo-colonialism.

Ummm....Sanders is just a typical liberal who chose not to wear his "we're not socialists" mask. The sad truth is, they really don't have to wear it anymore. The lack of any kind of serious resistance to socialism in this country is at that point where this clown can show his face and just not have to bother trying to hide anything.

The real conspiracy in this country has been staring us in the face since the early 60s through the media and the political left. The political right (such as it is) has never been a serious challenge to these people. All that ever stood in their way was public opinion

The American left is virulent socialism. It has been since at least the 60s. It has been blatantly obvious for many years.