Is Sanders part of the establishment or is the Dem establishment that far left?

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

But we *ARE* talking about the Left in the U.S.

As a relative concept, yes. But it then loses all meaning to a degree. Remember that the right wing still attempts to paint basically many centrist concepts that are not classically even "leftist," to be "communist" or "socialist" or far left. So they are themselves trying to use such historical concepts and labels. They use them to trigger or invoke the fear from the Cold War, which clearly is speaking to a larger global framework.

I will say this again, the Democratic platform is not even close to a true left platform. It's very centrist, for better or worse. That doesn't make it good necessarily, nor correct simply by being centrist.

Sanders, though, does start to move few steps towards true left.

The op has a good point. Given that many of the Democrats really aren't that left at all, but instead very corporate, capitalistic, etc, what is the deal with Sanders?

I actually concur that the op's point is interesting: what is going on within the Democratic Party to allow this?

a reply to: thinline

Actually everyone is trying to ignore Sanders as much as possible so they can promote Hillary. He's not part of the establishment at all. He's attacking the establishment. But since they don't want to bring any attention to him if they don't have to they'll just continue to ignore him as long as possible.

The reason the Right is attacking Trump is because he's making them all look bad and screwing up their planned numbers. On one had he's saying crazy stuff as a Republican and they don't like that because it makes the GOP look crazy too. Then on top of that he's beating all the other normal GOP candidates as well. So it's a double punch to them which I'm sure is really making them mad.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: Metallicus
He is a career politician. He still seems far-left for the Dems, but the entire party is moving to the left and the Republicans move further and further to the middle or at least what WAS the middle.

The entire country is being dragged to the Progressive side of things due to the brainwashing of the younger generation in our liberal controlled education system and a left leaning mainstream media.

Bernie's popularity is a natural progression as the world moves towards centralized, totalitarian control and the inevitable loss of personal liberty that accompanies that movement.

This is the opposite of the reality.

There is no real "left" in the US, based on what left actually means historically.

Point of reality, the Democrats on a global scale are considered center or EVEN center right. The Republicans are without a doubt fairly far right on a global political scale.

Yes, Sanders begins to move a bit more left than the Democrat mean, for sure, but even he is not a true far leftist, as in communist or something else.

Ask Europe. Sanders is not a far leftist AT ALL.

For the record, he's an unapologetic socialist. I don't mean "hurr hurr hurr, let's call him a socialist because it sounds evil". He's an actual socialist, as am I. And he doesn't normally run as a Democrat; he usually runs as an Independent.

Yes, this is why I say he moves towards real left. But he is more of an American socialist, which is socialism light, for better or worse.

I concede your point. My point regarding Democrats or the normal platform generally is fairly accurate though.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: Metallicus
He is a career politician. He still seems far-left for the Dems, but the entire party is moving to the left and the Republicans move further and further to the middle or at least what WAS the middle.

The entire country is being dragged to the Progressive side of things due to the brainwashing of the younger generation in our liberal controlled education system and a left leaning mainstream media.

Bernie's popularity is a natural progression as the world moves towards centralized, totalitarian control and the inevitable loss of personal liberty that accompanies that movement.

This is the opposite of the reality.

There is no real "left" in the US, based on what left actually means historically.

Point of reality, the Democrats on a global scale are considered center or EVEN center right. The Republicans are without a doubt fairly far right on a global political scale.

Yes, Sanders begins to move a bit more left than the Democrat mean, for sure, but even he is not a true far leftist, as in communist or something else.

Ask Europe. Sanders is not a far leftist AT ALL.

For the record, he's an unapologetic socialist. I don't mean "hurr hurr hurr, let's call him a socialist because it sounds evil". He's an actual socialist, as am I. And he doesn't normally run as a Democrat; he usually runs as an Independent.

Yes, this is why I say he moves towards real left. But he is more of an American socialist, which is socialism light, for better or worse.

I concede your point. My point regarding Democrats or the normal platform generally is fairly accurate though.

I agree & no problem there.

I used to laugh at people who constantly said President Obama was a socialist. Because I'm an actual socialist & his policies are nothing like mine! lol And I agree that Sanders isn't a hardcore socialist, or at least he wouldn't be able to admit it publicly. America's not ready for strong forms of socialism.

As an example, I'd make sure that all new lifesaving medical advances were freely available to all of humankind. Then every new cure or procedure would instantly start saving people globally. Every new development would be beneficial for all humans. Same goes for new agriculture techniques, new manufacturing techniques, new ways to harness energy more efficiently, etc. And I want a strong social safety net, so people can focus on family/community life or pursue their dreams without fear of economic ruin if they fail.

I don't care about intellectual property rights unless it's for something frivolous. As in, everyone can share in the benefits of lifesaving advances, but frivolous "wants" can be patented. So I guess I'm a socialist when it comes to needs & important stuff, but a capitalist when it comes to wants & hobbies (and I still support open source & public domain initiatives then).

originally posted by: thinline
the democratic establishment/liberal press is not going after Sanders like republican establishment/press is going after Trump.

The DNC doesn't want Sanders, the whole Democratic establishment has already agreed to throw their weight behind Hillary. Hillary has been the 'presumptive' nominee since she lost in 2008. It's been a given. Even before she officially announced she had, literally, dozens of endorsements from party members. For this reason alone so many pundits are discounting Sanders.

via fivethirtyeight

It even explains why Jeb is still being talked about. It's all about the party elites and their choices. The polls don't matter because the money is going to come from the endorsements. Money wins elections in America, with few exceptions.

Which means sanders is in the establishment or the establishment is sooo far left, that people like Clinton, Biden, O'Malley are to conservative for them.

I don't know how you draw this conclusion but Sanders is and always has been, left of the DNC establishment. Five, ten, twenty thousand people at a rally for Sanders? Doesn't matter, because Wasserman-Schultz has already declared Hillary the winner. Democrats are only getting six debates and all of them must be sponsored by the party or you're kicked out of the primaries.

As for some of the comments about Trump and Sanders; Stop Comparing Donald Trump And Bernie Sanders

1. Trump is “winning” (for now), and Sanders isn’t.
2. Sanders is campaigning on substantive policy positions, and Trump is largely campaigning on the force of his personality.
3. Sanders is a career politician; Trump isn’t.
4. Trump is getting considerably more media attention.
5. Sanders has a much better “ground game.”
6. Sanders holds policy positions of a typical liberal Democrat; Trump’s are all over the place.
7. Sanders’s support divides fairly clearly along ideological and demographic lines; Trump’s doesn’t.
8. Sanders’s candidacy has clear historical precedents; they’re less obvious for Trump.
9. Trump is running against a field of 16 candidates; Sanders is running against one overwhelming front-runner.10. Trump is a much greater threat to his party establishment.

a reply to: Metallicus

He is a career politician. He still seems far-left for the Dems, but the entire party is moving to the left and the Republicans move further and further to the middle or at least what WAS the middle.

The entire country is being dragged to the Progressive side of things due to the brainwashing of the younger generation in our liberal controlled education system and a left leaning mainstream media.

Bernie's popularity is a natural progression as the world moves towards centralized, totalitarian control and the inevitable loss of personal liberty that accompanies that movement.

BS. There is no real Left in American politics; both parties are part of the same neoliberal establishment. Compared to most countries in the West we have a right and far right.

Please tell me when you think the Republicans "moved to the center" because you're going to have a difficult time finding much support for this nonsense outside of getting stars from similarly deluded American right-wingers.

What do political scientists say?

NPR - Political Scientist: Republicans Most Conservative They've Been In 100 Years

Keith Poole of the University of Georgia, with his collaborator Howard Rosenthal of New York University, has spent decades charting the ideological shifts and polarization of the political parties in Congress from the 18th century until now to get the view of how the political landscape has changed from 30,000 feet up. What they have found is that the Republican Party is the most conservative it has been a century.

What do former Reagan advisers say?

Independent UK - Fox News 'brainwashing' Republicans into becoming even more right-wing, says former Reagan adviser

A former adviser to two Republican presidents has hit out at controversial American TV channel Fox News for “brainwashing” the party into a right-wing extremist version of itself.

Economist Bruce Bartlett, who worked for both the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W.Bush, published a paper last month where he warned the channel was turning the party into a fringe group because it allowed conservatives to “self-brainwash”.

How about foreigners?

Vice - What the Rest of the World Thinks About the Republican Party

Germany:

Sometimes it's actually quite hard to understand why you'd even need a Republican Party when even your Democrats are fans of the downright scary NSA surveillance program, support fracking, and think assassinating people in foreign countries with drones is cool

UK:

The Republican Party is one of those organizations that never fails to reaffirm my identity as a European lefty. If I ever feel my faith in socialized healthcare, economic redistribution, or exotic brands of hummus weakening, I know that all I have to do is read about the latest Republican plan to give assault weapons to teachers or privatize American oxygen and I'll be OK again.

France:

There's kind of a trick to describe American politics in France. Basically, what we consider right-wing is actually your left. Democrats are the equivalent of our right-wing party, previously known as UMP and now called Les Républicains. So that leaves your Republicans to be some kind of rabid extremists. That's what they are, right?

Canada

But it's impossible to have just one opinion about the Republican Party. Decades of faux-populist and real-bigoted campaign strategies have empowered the most extreme wings of the party to the point that they are now capable of bending the party proper to their will, as the Tea Party movement demonstrated. For the moment, Donald Trump is a legitimate presidential candidate who will push out any number of more qualified candidates before he finally fizzles out, and his main appeal is his anti-establishment posturing.

Since the days of Reagan and Thatcher, it's been one neoliberal administration after another. They pretend to have these huge ideological and policy differences but at the end of the day they just want to keep the GDP rising and their wealthy friends and supporters happy.

a reply to: theantediluvian

What's crazy is after you read how other countries view our Right/Left spectrum and then consider the fact that you hear from the Right over and over how the party is not Right enough.

Which might be debatable depending on if you're talking about the Voters vs. Politicians or maybe even certain GOP members or something. But as far as the dominate players on the Right are concerned it's hard to imagine them getting any more extreme. I'm not sure what that would even look like let alone how others on the outside would view it.

a reply to: theantediluvian

They still aren't Conservative enough!!

a reply to: muse7

I guess I kind of have to reconsider Cruz with that chart.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: Metallicus

Bernie has a Nordic dream for the states, is that your idea of a totalitarian nation?

So why don't you guys move there and leave America alone?

We don't want you imagined utopia, we just want to be free!!!!

And yes that includes free to spend our money as we see fit, unlike the 60% tax rate of your Nordic dream!!!!!

a reply to: thinline

The coalition of groups that comprise the Democrat base are that far left.

The Democrats are starting to have the same problem the Republican establishment have had for a while now. Their base wants to be much further left than their establishment. It's not as pronounced as it is with the Republicans who have been more or less at war with their base since the latter part of Bush's second term (Harriet Myers, Amnesty, No Child Left Behind), but it's starting.

Basically, the elites/establishment in Washington have played the game of making pretty words at their base to get elected and them more or less ignoring them as soon as they hit capital hill.

Republicans have had this problem for longer and it's biting them bigger. Hence, their insistence on getting elected with "moderates" and the "Hispanic" vote rather than their base because they can't rely on their base. Bernie is siphoning off the Democrats' base from Hillary for the first time, and I don't think the Democrats really know how to exactly handle it yet because I don't think they really believe that Bernie is electable at a national level.

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Cobaltic1978

Oh now we aren't running scared

We have already had 7 years of hope, and change, and with Sanders it's just more of the same.

So what's the Right's big plan?

Cut the deficit through Austere measures, punishing the people who had no part in the country's collapse? More foreign wars to keep the BIG bankers happy?

What hope and change do they offer to the average Joe?

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

OK, what do you do in your own home budget when you wind up overspent? Keep borrowing money in the hopes the more money magically will fall out of the sky some day to cover your shortfall? It's not my son's fault, but he will end up suffering some and making due with less just like my husband and I when the time comes to start cutting corners in our budget.

The long and the short of it is that we are spending more than we are taking in. Even if we cut our entire military, we would STILL be spending more than we are taking in. Even if we cut all of the military and confiscated every penny from the rich, it wouldn't fix that problem.

At some point, everyone is going to have to make do with less from the government at every level or we can keep going and end up in a situation where all the things we are used to suddenly cease entirely and completely and NO ONE has anything at all.

The fact of the matter is that we have allowed our politicians to promise us things they could never financially deliver. It's not our fault, no, but it is our fault that we bought those promises and are now mad. If things are too good to be true, then they probably are.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: Cobaltic1978

Oh now we aren't running scared

We have already had 7 years of hope, and change, and with Sanders it's just more of the same.

So what's the Right's big plan?

Cut the deficit through Austere measures, punishing the people who had no part in the country's collapse? More foreign wars to keep the BIG bankers happy?

What hope and change do they offer to the average Joe?

The Right's big "plan" is to continue to fool people into voting against their own interests, creating more wasteful spending by giving the military industrial complex even more money, continue to try to get rid of the affordable care act while providing no solution of their own, continue to pretend to be "pro-life" while at the same time being against healthcare for all americans, anti-environment, anti-science and anti social safety nets.

They rely on fake scandals like the planned parenthod videos and benghazi to stir up their base into a frenzy so they can forget how bad republicans continue to bend them over.

They're the party of the haves and have nots, their poor voters actually believe that they will become rich by continuing to give rich people even MORE money.

originally posted by: Metallicus
He is a career politician. He still seems far-left for the Dems, but the entire party is moving to the left and the Republicans move further and further to the middle or at least what WAS the middle.

The entire country is being dragged to the Progressive side of things due to the brainwashing of the younger generation in our liberal controlled education system and a left leaning mainstream media.

Bernie's popularity is a natural progression as the world moves towards centralized, totalitarian control and the inevitable loss of personal liberty that accompanies that movement.

You've written precisely what I've been thinking. But......I would add that it seems to me the MSM hasn't found its footing with regard to either side of the equation. They're naturally horrified by Trump and his brash anti-intellectualism, but I'd have expected them to run Fiorina up the flag pole, if for no other reason than the fact she's female. But from what I'm seeing, they just pretty much dismiss all of the Republican candidates.

Then there's the Democrat side. I sort of get the impression that they don't want to take on Hilary in any form. She's not getting the coverage, praise and kudos I'd have expected from the MSM. But by the same token, I'm not seeing much coverage from them about Sanders either.

I don't know. I don't understand it. I thought, well maybe its just too far out in time for them to take much of an interest. I looked it up and the first Iowa Caucuses are February 1, 2016. Weird.

a reply to: TonyS

It's not weird. Bernie is The Chosen One. I've been saying so for months.

The DNC is not banking on Hllary and her 'unpredictable' email scandal to win -- it's benefitting Bernie. They aren't counting on Joe who will split Hillary's votes -- that will benefit Bernie.

Bernie won't have to sling mud to win. He won't have to be a media darling. He won't have to be a spotlight hog.

He's going to be the nominee and look like a true grassroots underdog. But, Bernie is the choice of the global elite.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

That's an interesting take.....and you might well be correct. I noted yesterday on a news site that many of Hilary's corporate donors have bailed out on her. But here's the deal: I clicked the link you provided and read your August post wherein you stated: "Lucky Bernie Sanders. He has A LOT of cards stacked in his favor. He is poised to win it all with a MANDATE." 1) Is Bernie electable at 74? and 2) a "Mandate"? A Mandate from who? As this thing plays out, its looking to me like it could be the lowest voter turnout Presidential election in the history of humankind! Worse, this is a Presidential election in which 43 states will be holding the elections with out of date, broken, hackable voting machines! My guess is that this will be the most hotly contested, (legally speaking) election ever with all three or four sides crying foul and "rigged" and there will be recounts after recounts. It could end up being thrown to the House to make the final call. The last thing any winner will get is a "Popular" mandate.

Sorry, I don't see it. Yea.....Bernie might win but at what cost?

Nobody is going after Sanders because his crude ideology of yesteryear doesn't stand a chance to get elected.

a reply to: muse7

The Right's big "plan" is to continue to fool people into voting against their own interests, creating more wasteful spending by giving the military industrial complex even more money, continue to try to get rid of the affordable care act while providing no solution of their own, continue to pretend to be "pro-life" while at the same time being against healthcare for all americans, anti-environment, anti-science and anti social safety nets.

Yeah we all know the leff' big 'plan'.

Continuing fooling people in to supporting the WELFARE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

Creating more programs that can't pay foremelves, and deluding their followers in to thinking their government exists to pay their bills.

Guess what ?

The was the plan the current guy has been using for the last seven years.

Worked out so awesome hasn't it ?

originally posted by: Skyfloating
Nobody is going after Sanders because his crude ideology of yesteryear doesn't stand a chance to get elected.

If Bernie is the nominee and Trump breaks from republicans and splits the conservative vote, Bernie will win.

And if Trump takes the vast majority of his supporters with him, Bernie will win by a landslide.