New Mexico Court Forced a Mother To Take Religious Classes Or Face Losing Her Kids

In my county if you are going through a divorce and have children you have to take a parenting class. There is a list of providers for this service. If Ms. Salzman wasn't happy with her provider, she should have dropped her and chosen a different provider.

Sal

a reply to: C21H30O2I

Oh Boo Hoo. What kind of mother is so offended by someone praying or talking about God that she would stop doing what she has to do to keep custody of her kids?

Its not like she was forced to pray with her. Its not like she was forced to praise God in her essay... heck she could've used the opportunity to mock God or explain why she didn't believe in Him.

If you ask me, I think she saw an opportunity for a lawsuit and jumped on it... and I'd love to know how her kids feel about her actions.

Religion: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group



Is this really much different than when the court orders people to go to 12 step programs like AA? That seems highly religious to me also. Look at some of the 12 steps.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
11. Sought through prayer and meditations to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.


Half of the damn steps are about God which reeks of religion to me. Are these type of court appointed programs violating the Separation of Church and State? Or is it only certain religions which do that?

originally posted by: SallieSunshine
In my county if you are going through a divorce and have children you have to take a parenting class. There is a list of providers for this service. If Ms. Salzman wasn't happy with her provider, she should have dropped her and chosen a different provider.

Sal

a reply to: C21H30O2I

Apparently in the states, well my state for sure. You have to take some form of Parenting class upon a divorce or stipulations leading up to. I had to take a few but hey It wasn't that bad.. Just the fact that i had to finish or what? They could have taken my sons i guess... I'm glad it is over on my end. Thanks Sal

a reply to: harvestdog

Yeah no doubt about that harvestdog. AA, although I have never been. At the shop my brother works at, there's an AA book in the bathroom, and hey I like to read. lol but I did notice the wording very religious.

I found a comment on a news story that says the presiding judge was Elizabeth Whitefield.

The Bernalillo County case is titled Holly Ehrler (n/k/a Holly Salzman) Petitioner v. David Ehrler Respondent, case no. D-202-DM-2005-04552. The assigned judge is Elizabeth Whitefield.

Source

Interestingly, this story also seems to have come out today... Judge Elizabeth Whitefield Orders Mom and Daughter to Make a Trip to Mexico

On Tuesday morning KOB Eyewitness News 4 met with Lynn Padilla who's being ordered to travel to a place where she doesn't want to visit. "I have never been to Mexico before nor have I had any desire to go to Mexico- but here I am," she says. Padilla has an eight year old daughter with a man named Sean Frei who moved to Mexico's Yucatán Peninsula a while ago. A family court order written by Judge Elizabeth Whitefield says Padilla must go there by the end of the year so her daughter can visit her dad for a week.
...
"Unfortunately I don't have the financial means to stop it from happening," said Padilla. She fears traveling to Mexico because of the continuing violence in the country and the repeated travel warnings from the U.S. Government. She also doesn't speak Spanish, and worries about not having any legal rights there. KOB wanted to speak with Judge Whitefield about her ruling but found that Whitefield's on holiday break until next week. Padilla says she has no choice or money to appeal the order so she's flying out Tuesday.

Can a judge order a mom to travel with her daughter out of the country? That's a little creepy. From what I've read during my research, there have been many complaints against this District Court...

a reply to: Bone75

Regrettably,I agree with your statement. She should, and I guess did, do what she had to. It sucks she, or anyone, would be put in that position, the position to do what you must, or else. . thanks!

originally posted by: SallieSunshine
If Ms. Salzman wasn't happy with her provider, she should have dropped her and chosen a different provider.

This counselor was named in the order. Salzman had no legal choice.

originally posted by: Bone75
If you ask me, I think she saw an opportunity for a lawsuit and jumped on it... and I'd love to know how her kids feel about her actions.

There is no lawsuit. Yet. And I hope she brings one.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I agree, the daughter should see the father, sure but, out of the country is a bit much. I agree with all the points the mother makes on why not to go. If, she cant afford to fight the finding's isn't it expensive, somewhat costly to travel to Mexico? It reminds me of the Judge that ruled the guy to get married to his girlfriend, because of a fight with another guy, over her! hehe the pOwer hungry are tripping.. thanks for the story, BH

I live in New Mexico, I have no doubt that this happens all the time. I myself, was forced by a judge to go to "Family Counseling" with my EX WIFE! I got a divorce for a damn good reason. I DID NOT WANT THIS WOMAN IN MY LIFE PERIOD!

I felt the judge was forcing me to get along with my ex. All I wanted to do was get away from her. But for 8 or 9 months I was forced to go to this counseling session. And it did nothing.

I think they force people to go to these programs for more tax payer money.

originally posted by: Tindalos2013
a reply to: C21H30O2I

Salzman was punished for defaulting on the court order. It has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Kind of how I saw it. Not she refused religion but just stopped going. If your a vegan assigned to pick up trash and stop going because the thought of McDonald's bags with nasty meat in it makes you sick. There will be problems. Not saying she had to buy into the counselors religion, Heck do what I had to do in a few classes in college. Write up some of the most nonsense pc based crap imaginable, put no effort, turn it in and ace it. Ignore it but do what is required especially by the courts. We can push the religious aspect but the real issue is she just quit going. Imagine if everyone just didn't follow the court orders. She stood her ground, I applaud that. If you are willing to accept consequences do it.

I had a doctor who prayed before she would work with each patient. All she did was 'pray' that she would do her best for each patient and that she would find the wisdom to help them. I don't find that offensive.

originally posted by: Metallicus
I had a doctor who prayed before she would work with each patient. All she did was 'pray' that she would do her best for each patient and that she would find the wisdom to help them.

Did the court order you to see that doctor? Did they take your children away if you wanted to see another doctor?

Give me a break. Going to someone of your own free will is NOT THE SAME as being ordered by a court.

Oh, I must add, yes I had full custody of my children. And yes, the threat of my children being taken away was there if I did not go to these sessions.

Yes. AA is an openly religious organisation and the courts should not be able to force you to attend specifically because of that.

a reply to: harvestdog

a reply to: Metallicus

Of course you don't. You believe in all of that crap. She wasn't just praying. The entire curriculum centered around the belief in supernatural beings. Did you not read the story? The counseler made her write an essay about what god meant to her.

a reply to: galaga

I live in NM, too. This was an ALBQ second district court judge. Was that the same for you? You don't have to respond, I'm just trying to get an idea of how this court might be overstepping their bounds...

Here are the judges in that district: seconddistrictcourt.nmcourts.gov...

Scroll down to "Family Court"

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Tindalos2013
a reply to: C21H30O2I

Salzman was punished for defaulting on the court order. It has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Kind of how I saw it. Not she refused religion but just stopped going. If your a vegan assigned to pick up trash and stop going because the thought of McDonald's bags with nasty meat in it makes you sick. There will be problems. Not saying she had to buy into the counselors religion, Heck do what I had to do in a few classes in college. Write up some of the most nonsense pc based crap imaginable, put no effort, turn it in and ace it. Ignore it but do what is required especially by the courts. We can push the religious aspect but the real issue is she just quit going. Imagine if everyone just didn't follow the court orders. She stood her ground, I applaud that. If you are willing to accept consequences do it.

I'm noticing a pattern from all of the pro religious posters. They all seem to think everyone should just suck it up and pretend to be religious for a short time to get through the BS that they think should be required of everyone in the world. Of course you would say that. That is why we fight back as hard as we do. Because you can't see your own hypocrisy.

The lady stopped going because at the very mention of god, the court becomes a theocratic govt institute and a kangaroo court. She did the right thing and brought her concerns to the judge who dismissed her complaints because the judge obviously sees nothing wrong with bringing god up in official state business. Which could be grounds for a discrimination suit but def would show that the courts preferred a religious method of settling it's business.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
I'm noticing a pattern from all of the pro religious posters. They all seem to think everyone should just suck it up and pretend to be religious for a short time to get through the BS that they think should be required of everyone in the world. Of course you would say that. That is why we fight back as hard as we do. Because you can't see your own hypocrisy.

And if Salzman had been a Christian and the counselor had begun the session by saying, “The meaning in my life is to know and serve Allah..." If she had then knelt down on her prayer mat and sang a Muslim prayer.... and then made Salzman do an essay on what Allah meant to her... you can bet we'd be hearing an entirely different slant from the Christian right.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Yeah I think so too. According to this DMV CA PDF] there were 142,121 DUI convictions in CA in 2011.
I know for a fact that it is court mandated for all of them to attend AA meetings. Seems to me it is mainstream to violate the Separation of Church and State. And this is not only done by Christian Conservatives or far-right wingers. CA is a very liberal state as a whole, and this is their policy.

On topic, life is unfair sometimes. You just have to do what you are told or face the consequences. I would do the AA meetings if it meant my freedom, or I would attend counseling from a religious person if it meant I can keep my kids. You don't have to agree with them, but you must attend and participate in court mandated programs.