9/11 Bombshell: Methodical Deception -- Rebekah Roth

a reply to: PublicOpinion

That comment obviously refers to AA 11. Did he say what he would've done after he knew that they use planes to attack buildings?

With all of the confusion that day, what would the pilots have done? Shoot down airliners and risk causing even high death counts and damage in the absence of a direct Presidential Order?

We can take a look here.

In interviews with us, NEADS personnel expressed considerable confusion over the nature and effect of the order

The NEADS commander told us he did not pass along the order because he was unaware of its ramifications. Both the mission commander and the senior weapons director indicated they did not pass the order to the fighters circling Washington and New York because they were unsure how the pilots would, or should, proceed with this guidance.

...the Langley pilots did not know the threat they were facing, did not know where United 93 was located, and did not have shoot-down authorization before United 93 crashed.

edition.cnn.com...

originally posted by: skyeagle409




What would pilots a have done? Shoot down an airliner over New York City without a Presidential Order?

If the airliners were shot down, what would the effects have been as those B-767's slammed into a crowded 5th Avenue, Broadway or Times Square at 500 mph while spreading burning jet fuel like napalm and finding out later the pilots shot down the wrong aircraft among the mass confusion within ATC that day?

It's unlikely anyone from NORAD would've shot down any aircraft over a populated area. As a matter of fact, they exercised a very similar scenario the day before with a rogue F-18 headed for the National Capital Area. It was decided at NEADS that it would be better to force the rogue aircraft out over the sea before shooting it down rather than shooting it down over a populated area.

The fourth step was to determine what was on the ground in the vicinity. The fighters were again given engagement authority because the rogue F18 had turned toward the NCA. That authority was soon withheld when the fighters reported they were over a populated area. The solution was to force the F18 out over the water. The pilots then reported that it looked like he was going to land at Baltimore. 0910204828 Ground Situation

www.oredigger61.org...

a reply to: Boone 870

It's unlikely anyone from NORAD would've shot down any aircraft over a populated area. As a matter of fact, they exercised a very similar scenario the day before with a rogue F-18 headed for the National Capital Area. It was decided at NEADS that it would be better to force the rogue aircraft out over the sea before shooting it down rather than shooting it down over a populated area.

DITTO!!

Several years ago, a private pilot in one of my aviation-related chapters accidentally violated the security zone around Air Force One here in Northern California one night and what happened to the pilot wasn't pretty. He was forced down at an airport where security personnel were waiting for him. During the next several months, the government gave him pure hell.

My other chapter, for which I am Past President, has certain ties with the 477th Fighter Group, 302nd Fighter Squadron in Alaska, which flies the F-22 Raptor. It was that unit that intercepted Russian bombers on July 4, 2015 near Alaska.

F-22s intercept Russian bombers on Fourth of July

Twice on July 4th, Air Force F-22 fighter jets intercepted long-range Russian bombers. NBC's Miguel Alamguer offers viewers an inside look at the team protecting U.S. borders on the Alaskan frontier.

News Video Regarding the Intercept

I met with the first commander of the 477th FG, in Philadelphia and he invited me for a personal tour of the 477th FG while I was President of the Tuskegee Airmen Chapter at Travis AFB, CA. My flying buddy, an original Tuskegee Airman, was honored as an Honorary Commander of the 477th FG. The 477th FG, was the 477th Bombardment Group during World War II, which was the unit he was assigned.

On Saturday, Oct 3, my two chapters will be flying children under our special program that both chapters share.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

The other point is, that we have no source for the initial order to scramble them into said training area. It was most def not Langleys decision but rather an unknown caller from NEADS, we know that by now.

I went back and listened to the MCC position recording at NEADS and you can very clearly hear Major Nasypany say, "you got an extra pilot, extra fighter? Let's launch them too" while being briefed on the Langley fighters.

So now we know that someone called Langley asking how many planes they could launch. Borgstrom voluntarily includes himself as one of the pilots who can fly. He contacts his commanding officer in North Dakota to inform him what's going on, his commanding officer approved. Then we have Nasypany giving orders to launch the third aircraft.

It seems pretty clear to me that everyone thought having a third aircraft airborne was a good idea.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

Borgstrom mentioned this call as he mentioned very confusing radio transmissions, your transscript doesn't cover the whole process. And this could be part of a methodical deception, information only gets out in tiny fragments while some channels weren't even recorded.

The NEADS-call for the initial scramble would be number one on my priority-list then, but (all) conversations with regards to Giant Killers airspace would be interesting as well. Even if they didn't play that big role as you suggested. Some parts were never recorded in the first place, we will never know what exactly has been said.

Okay, I spent a few hours this morning listening to the NEADS tapes and I found the recording of the call which contains Borgstrom being asked how many fighters Langley could get in the air. It was Maj. Anderson from NEADS. Borgstrom is identified as and then identifies himself as the SOF and makes it clear there would be no SOF if he went flying.

Another mountain out of a mole hill.

You will have to go to DRM1 DAT2 Channel 19 SD2 OP if you want to hear it for yourself, the phone conversation begins at 44:30.

Did you learn anything from this conversation, PublicOpinion?

I cut the phone call out of the NEADS tape and loaded it up to YouTube so that no one would have to download the original recording and find the conversation. 2m, 05s in duration.

So, I've been away from this topic for a while, and have yet to see this answered anywhere yet (deepest apologies if I missed it catching up with the topic this morning,) so I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask again.

Has anyone managed to definitively link the specific individual members of Gelitin present in the WTC photographs (or the name on the temp work ID) to the specific artists in the DEA report suspected of having Mossad or military ties?

As near as I can find, the DEA report says only that most of the artists questioned admitted to being ex-military signals intelligence and explosive ordinance specialists, but it does not appear to specify the name Gelitin/Gelatin, or include the name of the person whose temporary work ID we see on the Methodical Deception resources page.

This seems crucial, as if Gelitin/Gelatin were not among those listed in the DEA report, then the link between them and Mossad or any suggestion of military experience on their part at all vanishes, does it not?

Peace.

a reply to: AceWombat04

Has anyone managed to definitively link the specific individual members of Gelitin present in the WTC photographs (or the name on the temp work ID) to the specific artists in the DEA report suspected of having Mossad or military ties?

The question I have for you is, what are you implying?

originally posted by: skyeagle409
a reply to: AceWombat04

Has anyone managed to definitively link the specific individual members of Gelitin present in the WTC photographs (or the name on the temp work ID) to the specific artists in the DEA report suspected of having Mossad or military ties?

The question I have for you is, what are you implying?

That I hope someone has an answer to the above question as despite my best efforts I have yet to find one?

Peace.

a reply to: Boone 870

So we still have not one first-hand source for that NEADS-call. Just tapes that got tampared with and lost data, which got restored later. Well... they equally could've made things up as well. You chose to believe that this data actually represents what happened that day, it's your decision.

I learned something again, that's right. Answers from the military are not really worth the fuzz. They just keep spitting lies, you experienced that with Arnolds statement as well. Nobody had to face consequences for their actions, did they?

originally posted by: PublicOpinion


So we still have not one first-hand source for that NEADS-call.

What we have is much, much better. The actual audio recordings that are not subject to memory fade, embellishment or memory recall several years down the road. Just the 100% unadulterated truth.

Just tapes that got tampared with and lost data, which got restored later.

Evidence for this please? Just kidding, I know you will never bring any evidence for this claim, just more conspiratorial nonsense.

Well... they equally could've made things up as well. You chose to believe that this data actually represents what happened that day, it's your decision.

And it is your choice to dismiss evidence because it proves your preconceived beliefs to be utterly false.

I learned something again, that's right. Answers from the military are not really worth the fuzz. They just keep spitting lies, you experienced that with Arnolds statement as well. Nobody had to face consequences for their actions, did they?

You call them lies, I call them mistakes.


I believe Arnold went before the commission completely unprepared and that was evident by the mistakes he made. He would have absolutely nothing to gain by lying to members of the commission that he knew had access to radar data, NEADS recordings, FAA ATC recordings and all the personnel involved on 9/11. He could only lose by lying.

I also learned something again. Well, not really learned, but had reinforced for the umpteenth time. That is, that the axiom "9/11 Truth: asking questions, ignoring answers" is true for a reason.

originally posted by: AceWombat04
So, I've been away from this topic for a while, and have yet to see this answered anywhere yet (deepest apologies if I missed it catching up with the topic this morning,) so I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask again.

Has anyone managed to definitively link the specific individual members of Gelitin present in the WTC photographs (or the name on the temp work ID) to the specific artists in the DEA report suspected of having Mossad or military ties?

As near as I can find, the DEA report says only that most of the artists questioned admitted to being ex-military signals intelligence and explosive ordinance specialists, but it does not appear to specify the name Gelitin/Gelatin, or include the name of the person whose temporary work ID we see on the Methodical Deception resources page.

This seems crucial, as if Gelitin/Gelatin were not among those listed in the DEA report, then the link between them and Mossad or any suggestion of military experience on their part at all vanishes, does it not?

Peace.

So, in partial answer to my own question(s) here's what I've been able to dig up (I cannot vouch for the credibility of this source, however the DEA report exists in other sites in PDF form, and seems consistent between sources. Original source is also listed on this particular source.)

1) None of the specific members of Geletin/Gelatin present in WTC and participating in this art stunt have their names appear in the DEA report. There is no - that I can find, please correct me if anyone has information to the contrary - documented link therefore between those specific individuals and the israeli military in any capacity.

2) However, another art student not listed as part of Geletin/Gelatin or part of the B Thing stunt, does appear in the DEA report. His name was Hanan Serfaty. He was part of the WTC's World Views program in the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council, floors 90 and 91 of WTC. He told the DEA he had formerly been Israeli military (though not surprising given compulsory Israeli military service.) www.physics911.ca... (peruse for "Hanan Serfaty")

3) Moreover, this Hanan Serfaty is something of a mystery. Multiple conspiracy sites claim he was a confirmed "leader" of an Israeli spy ring, reported in an in depth article by Germany news weekly (renowned for its lengthy, analytical articles and exposes) Die Zeit. iraq-info.1accesshost.com...

4) However, the only full English transcript I can find of that article anywhere online does not even mention Hanan's name, as far as I can tell. www.fromthewilderness.com...

Very tentative conclusion/current progress: There does not appear to be direct evidence linking Gelatin/Geletin, the specific team involved in The B Thing stunt, or the name of the individual on the temp work ID to the Israeli military in the DEA report or anywhere else. However there is a person of some interest - Hanan Serfaty - who may or may not have been involved in Israeli intelligence, possibly spying on the terrorists prior to being deported.

To date there is nothing definitive that I can find proving Hanan Serfaty was Israeli intelligence however, other than inferences stemming from combining his name showing up in the DEA report, the existence of Israeli intelligence agents in locations near where he was demonstrated to be staying, and the deportation of Israeli intelligence agents who had lived near Mohammed Atta. I can find no proof that Hanan was among them or that this isn't just a deductive leap people are making.

Can anyone help further this line of inquiry? I'm at a dead end.

Peace.

a reply to: AceWombat04

The Forward, a popular Jewish weekly in the US, will later report that at the end of 2001, the Israeli government admits to having conducted a large-scale spying operation in the US before 9/11, using art students and moving vans as cover stories. The Forward quotes an anonymous former US official said to have been regularly briefed about the US investigation into Israeli spying: “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it. The conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs but that they could [be deported] because they did not know anything about 9/11.” He further claims that US officials confront the Israeli government at this time and Israel privately admits the operation while continuing to publicly deny it...

www.historycommons.org...

One "art student" was a former Israeli military intelligence officer named Hanan Serfaty, who rented two Hollywood apartments close to the mail drop and apartment of Mohammed Atta and four other hijackers. Serfaty was moving large amounts of cash: he carried bank slips showing more than $100,000 deposited from December 2000 through the first quarter of 2001; other bank slips showed withdrawals for about $80,000 during the same period. Serfaty's apartments, serving as crash pads for at least two other "art students", were located at 4220 Sheridan Street and 701 South 21st Avenue. Lead hijacker Mohammed Atta's mail drop was at 3389 Sheridan Street--approximately 2,700 feet from Serfaty's Sheridan Street apartment. Both Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, the suicide pilot on United Airlines Flight 175, which smashed into World Trade Center 2, lived in a rented apartment at 1818 Jackson Street, some 1,800 feet from Serfaty's South 21st Avenue apartment.

whatreallyhappened.com...

These incidents were in the months leading up to 11 September 2001. During that same period we were all receiving frantic calls from sources in for increased vigilance, and that all indications the Middle East that the CIA were ignoring calls pointed to a terrorist attack involving one or more passenger planes on the Eastern Seaboard was imminent. Unlike the FBI and CIA we in the intelligence media had no knowledge of the huge Israeli espionage operation that was occurring across the United States.

www.eyespymag.com...


At least something, any chance to look into the FBI-investigation?
The DEA might be the wrong address.




a reply to: Boone 870

Despite Commission formal requests for a copy of the tapes and a transcript, NEADS was unable to deliver in time for our first visit the last week in October, 2003. I arranged with our POC to obtain a copy of the tapes on site; there would be no transcript.

As agreed, NEADS provided, piecemeal, digitized copies of their tapes as Commission Staff was conducting interviews. We worked with a copy of the partial transcript and the audio files and attempted to walk interviewees through the events of the morning of 9-11. It quickly became apparent that the transcript was insufficient for the task at hand. Our Team Leader, John Farmer, consulted with Colonel Marr and informed him that we were terminating the visit prior to the final interview with him.

www.oredigger61.org...

Can't make that up.

- Digital Recording Expert Spends Two Weeks Working on Transcripts
- Transcripts Needed for Investigation
- Tollack's Work Not Reviewed
-9/11 Commission Not Initially Made Aware of NEADS Tapes

www.historycommons.org...


How very ... ehm... generous, eh?

conspiratorial nonsense

... utter nonsense to be precise, digitized and remastered. Copy-Chuckle away!

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

... utter nonsense to be precise, digitized and remastered. Copy-Chuckle away!

You are pulling a classic conspiracy theory move here. You speculate a conspiracy, I debunk it with irrefutable evidence, you claim larger conspiracy.

Together with DoD we approached the manufacturer, Dictaphone [General Dynamics], and they were able to not only recover all the files but provide them to us in a format which was useful and effective.”

The tapes "remastered" by Dictaphone prove you wrong, therefore Dictaphone is in on the conspiracy too!

Yeah, I am definitely chuckling away!!!

a reply to: Boone 870

irrefutable evidence

The original tapes?
Tollack worked for Marr as he digitized the stuff we talk about, didn't he? Uuups

And now you need an invitation to see the possibility for conspiracy here? Well. That's funny in a rather ignorant way. But you didn't debunk anything yet. Carry on!

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

The original tapes?
Tollack worked for Marr as he digitized the stuff we talk about, didn't he?

Yes. Now you're claiming even more people were involved in the conspiracy?

At first it was just the tape that was thought to have been damaged, now you're suggesting it was others as well?

Do you believe Tollack was the one who faked and then inserted the conversation between Maj. Anderson and Capt. Borgstrom into the recording I found earlier?

I am going to go ahead and make a prediction now.

Someday some poor slob is going to acquire the original "Freedom Files" from the archives and compare those recordings to the NEADS recordings and he/she will find that the two match up perfectly. Then you will have to drop your claim that the digitized copies from Tollack were altered and start claiming that the original reels were altered from the start.

The all encompassing, never ending conspiracy.

a reply to: jude11

Study 'Brady Bonds' 'Black Castle trust' and 'the enterprise'

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Thanks. Yeah, that's pretty much much the information I keep finding, or some variation thereof, on various sites.

See, that's the issue I keep running into. The first link doesn't reference Hanan, while the second does, but again refers to the DEA report in reference to him. The DEA report is the only reference to him specifically that I can find. And while sites claim there is reference to him in the Die Zeit article, no transcript I can find of it mentions him.

I haven't yet been able to find any documented source or transcript of an FBI report tying him to the ex-Israeli intelligence circles being investigated. So I keep ending up with several disparate things that I can't quite find a way to definitively connect.

• A suspected group of Israeli spies operating under an ostensible "art student" front
  
• An individual named Hanan Serfaty who worked in WTC (and who some sites claim had a home near Mohammed Atta, but I can't find definitive sources for that anywhere, and those they reference - or at least the one I can find - don't seem to mention Hanan at all)
  
• And a group called Gelatin/Geletin who were photographed with the boxes (the central thrust of this thread) but whose names do not appear in the DEA report in relationship to the suspicious art students.
  

I can't find a way to link them all, or to confirm the dots being connected. Nor can I find the FBI investigations' findings anywhere but third or fourth hand references to old news reports I also can't find, or which when found don't pan out. Hence my lingering questions. (A theme reflected by a lot of these sites, as well.)

I'll keep looking.

Peace.

a reply to: Boone 870

What makes you think the "Freedom Files" are the original tapes?

The “Freedom Files”

The Dictaphone-provided files are the “Freedom Files,” alluded to in my question to Tollack about timing errors. For a reason never determined, Dictaphone’s recovery process introduced a 20-minute error across the board for all NEADS audio files provided as a result of the manufacturer’s recovery process. That error has no analytical impact except that it must be accounted for and analysts, researchers, and historians need to remember which set of files is at hand as they work.

www.oredigger61.org...

Digitized and remastered by Dictaphone, how in hell is that supposed to be first-hand evidence? Wouldn't be sufficient in any decent lawsuit either.


a reply to: AceWombat04

Thought so, I've read somewhere that this FBI-investigation is strictly confidential.

the Washington Post ran a story that stopped me dead in my tracks: "60 Israelis on Tourist Visas Detained Since Sept. 11," but it was the subhead that really got my attention: "Government Calls Several Cases 'of Special Interest,' Meaning Related to Post-Attacks Investigation." In addition to the 1000-plus Middle Easterners of the Muslim persuasion swept up in Ashcroft's post-9/11 dragnet, it seems, some 60 Israelis were in custody. And these were no ordinary tourists: INS officials testified in immigration court hearings that this group was "of special interest to the government" – the same argument used to justify the detention of Arabs in connection with the investigation into 9/11.

www.antiwar.com...

That truly sounds like a big spy-ring.