Europe in Chaos as Illegal Immigrants Resort to Violence.

originally posted by: SoulSurfer

originally posted by: muse7
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

We can start by getting the hell out of their countries and stop bombing them

I was about to prepare a speech, but you nailed it in a single sentence.

People mostly focus on the negative side of the problem, but never ask why, this is happening. The crusades and colonialism is basically a transgression unto another person. It is no different, than someone entering my house, uninvited, and claiming a room for his/herself, without consideration on how a person would feel about it. And to add insultto injury, said person who was uninvited in the first place, proceeds on leaving trash, garbage all over the place, creating chaos in your own home. You want that person out, but he does everything in his power to stay, including threats against your families life.


So, what gives the elite the right to do this very thing to people? if you invade someone's home, don't expect them to be happy about it. I guess I spoke my speech anyways. Still, very good post.

To the OP, I call it Karma. The elites may rewrite history, but people will never forget. You reap what you sow. Causality, there is no escape from it. And we are ALL about to feel the full blunt of this karma.

Muslims CRUSADED FIRST SO they started it and have brouhgt anything that happens to them on their own heads according to causality.

originally posted by: SoulSurfer(....)
To the OP, I call it Karma. The elites may rewrite history, but people will never forget. You reap what you sow. Causality, there is no escape from it. And we are ALL about to feel the full blunt of this karma.

I'm more friendly to the term causality, since it's more science-ish. Cause/effect. Conservation of energy/momentum. Karma is too blurry. It assumes some kind of God or divine moral agency.

in the long run things will be ok. What's happening now has always happened. The rise and fall of nations has always happened too. It'll hurt sometimes. Some of us will die. We just have to remember no matter how hard it gets it's not about us, it's about our species. Our species will survive and is indeed thriving so well it has dominated Earth. (And while it has dominated Earth, it's still learning how to be a caretaker of Earth.)

I'm not saying our future is guaranteed, but I'm optimistic. I know there're a lot of dangers, but I think the danger is more centered on what we will be, not some variant of the biblical apocalypse. What will we be? We might be very different, so different we in essence died. That doesn't mean we lost everything. We changed, we shed some of our previous self. This not unlike what has happened in the past 100,000 to 1,000,000 years. A lot has changed. Our direct ancestors "died" and became us.

I think we anthropomorphise our past and future self. It's unintentional. Maybe it's psychological defense? Regardless, things change. We change. We will "die" and transition to a new kind of being. It's not bad or good. It simply is necessary in our evolutionary trek.

We're like a stepping stone. Life evolves. We may or may not make it--although me being optimistic I think we will survive in some form. Even if we don't survive, other life will. All life is a kind of shared pursuit.

And btw I do accept possibility of divinity or god-like being(s). Maybe is the ultimate evolution of life--to become a god or god-being. Not necessarily biological or even material, but must be manipulable.

(I just do not know of any current God or God(s) or divine moral agency. This is why I'm agnostic atheist. I could be wrong so I'm agnostic.)

originally posted by: muse7
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

We can start by getting the hell out of their countries and stop bombing them

I am not sure what my position is on this. It sounds good... but an experience of mine makes me hesitate.

We had a friend who is a Syrian doctor. About a year and a half ago, he took his new (french) wife back to visit his family in Syria. She was rather shocked by the conditions. He described to us an intolerable situation. He said the corruption there was horrendous- people were unable to get enough to eat. It was a desperate situation.
Soon after he told us he needed to go back and try to help his family. I guess he did because we haven't heard from him since.

But something I found curious that stuck in my mind was his repeated assertion that, "The USA just has to do something! They can't just stand by and let this continue!"

Before that moment, I honestly thought that the 'mericans who claimed the rest of the world is begging for their intervention were full of it. It was the first time I had actually come face to face with an attitude of this type - as if it was the duty of the US to police other countries.

It was thought provoking at the time, and continues to come up in my memory when the debate arises about US intervention in Syria.

originally posted by: SoulSurfer
...
People mostly focus on the negative side of the problem, but never ask why, this is happening. The crusades and colonialism is basically a transgression unto another person. It is no different, than someone entering my house, uninvited, and claiming a room for his/herself, without consideration on how a person would feel about it. And to add insultto injury, said person who was uninvited in the first place, proceeds on leaving trash, garbage all over the place, creating chaos in your own home. You want that person out, but he does everything in his power to stay, including threats against your families life.

So, what gives the elite the right to do this very thing to people? if you invade someone's home, don't expect them to be happy about it. I guess I spoke my speech anyways. Still, very good post.

To the OP, I call it Karma. The elites may rewrite history, but people will never forget. You reap what you sow. Causality, there is no escape from it. And we are ALL about to feel the full blunt of this karma.

What about the fact that there were Muslim crusades which started in the 7th century before the Christians responded to the invasion from the Muslims? The invasion from Muslim imperialism intensified after the death of Mohammed who had told his people to spread Islam by any way, including by the sword. Since then and for about 1,500 years Muslim imperialists attacked, invaded and forced people to convert to Islam in dozens and dozens of nations.

As for the United States, the first major wars the United States had to wage after it became a nation was against north African Muslim nations, because the Muslims attacked ships that were going to Europe, and coming from Europe to the United States. These wars were called the Barbary Wars.

Two men, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, were sent to London in 1785 to meet with Tripoli's envoy, ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman. Their intention was to inquire on what grounds the North African Muslim nations kept attacking mostly passenger, or merchant ships bound to the new world.

This was the response from Tripoli's ambassador.

...
It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.
...

en.wikipedia.org...


Life of Thomas Jefferson: Third President of the United States

So you see, neither the United States nor Europe began the conflicts which continue to exist to this day.

Now, I am not saying all Muslim people to this day agree with Tripoli's ambassador, or with the Muslim radicals who exist to this day.

Anyway, imo only the women, children and the husbands of those women should be allowed in any European nation. Any immigrant male or female that has resorted to violence should be sent back and never allowed in any European nation, or in the United States.

I think this statement in today's Guardian says such a lot

Two trains, which had been held at a ferry crossing to Germany were allowed to resume their journey to Copenhagen after around 100 asylum seekers agreed to seek refugee status in Denmark.

They were understood to be reluctant to register in Denmark because of restrictions on benefits.

This "crisis" has now made it so much easier to enter any country in Europe illegally from Serbia Romania etc and these people are integrating themselves into the genuine refugee camps and crowds. These are the economic migrants feeling nothing but the poverty of their own country looking for an easy ride rather than even attempt to do anything about their situation themselves. We have become a world of entitlement and handouts

originally posted by: Sovan
^Amen!

Remember the NATIVE AMERICANS

You're aware "native" Americans fought and killed each other over territory?

originally posted by: TheBulk

originally posted by: Sovan
^Amen!

Remember the NATIVE AMERICANS

You're aware "native" Americans fought and killed each other over territory?

They also forget that the native americans were not originally from north america as well.

a reply to: InTheLight

Lot of FUN to kill too.


TO THE OP:What do they think will happen when they keep pushing like this?
If the west tweaks on them again it will be world wide apartied against the faith of Islam.
Or WORSE another "Crusade".
I would like to remind the world ...once again we don't NEED that if we calm down and work together to isolate the nuts from the people who don't DESERVE it(Who'm the USE as sheilds).
Other than that, I don't see it as a surprise when the west hits back.

originally posted by: muse7
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

We can start by getting the hell out of their countries and stop bombing them

That's not going to stop people from fleeing war zones and looking for safety in other countries.

The fundamental cause of this has not been US involvement in these countries. Assad started murdering his own people, Saddam had murdered people for decades, Gaddafi was a mentally deranged lunatic who didn't give a cr*p about his own people. Their own populations repeatedly rose up against their dictators and thousands were murdered as a result.

It's certainly true that our placating of extreme regimes for decades was not good enough. If we'd had enough foresight and understood how technology was going to make our world so small perhaps governments would have reconsidered dealing with these despots without attempting to fix their countries through diplomatic pressure - but I doubt it.

We ignored what these crazies were doing when it suited us, and now the people living in these countries know that there is safety elsewhere - of course they're going to try to reach safety.

The US (and pretty much every other developed nation) is responsible for looking the other way while these people suffered despots and war for decades.

The ONLY SOLUTION to these problems is the removal of these governments. They need to be replaced by truly democratic institutions representing all citizens, able to provide security and peace for the majority. They can deal with nutty groups of limited power within the country as and when, just like we all do, but they need to get the situation under some kind of control before that. The only way this can be done is by removing the tribalism, the religious factions and the extreme groups from all institutions.

Unfortunately, this is now going to take decades to fix, because those in power around the world were either too ignorant to understand what technology was capable of and where it would lead, or too lazy to confront the problem when it should have been confronted.

We better get used to seeing this, because over the next 50 years we're going to see millions of people across the world moving out of violent nations and into safety wherever they can find it.

Fifty years ago someone would have to be on the precipice of death before fleeing into what was the entirely unknown world outside of their country, but now they all know that most democratic countries have a quality of life far exceeding their own even in peacetime.

No one on this Earth can be blamed or shamed for wanting a better life, and the sooner the racists, the ignorant and the near-fascists out there (and on here) realize that the better.

None of those people are illegal, none of them are guilty of anything other than wanting a nice life, and no one here has the right to refuse them that right.

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
These are the economic migrants feeling nothing but the poverty of their own country looking for an easy ride rather than even attempt to do anything about their situation themselves. We have become a world of entitlement and handouts

You're displaying the same kind of utter ignorance we're seeing too much of on ATS,

So rather than just being a racist or a xenophobe, you're a classist too?

Those dirty poor people! How dare they want a better life working damn hard in a country which actually gives them an opportunity to work!?

Thats th eissue though. these people ar enot liek mexicans who will work their butts off. most of them are teen age who for th enext 3-4 yrs will have to be fed,clothed,and housed on others dimes due to their age. By the time they get old enough to work they will be used to not doing it and want to stay un employed.

I t may sound cruel to you but they will essentially be stealing from the mouths of the people who live theres children.

a reply to: Rocker2013

"The fundamental cause of this has not been US involvement in these countries. Assad started murdering his own people, Saddam had murdered people for decades, Gaddafi was a mentally deranged lunatic who didn't give a cr*p about his own people. Their own populations repeatedly rose up against their dictators and thousands were murdered as a result. "

TextI think this a misconception people in the West have and has allowed a "justification" for the elite globalist to destroy these Countries for profit and to ensure nothing but a fiat currency system could be used. Gaddafi was actually a Socialist in many ways, he did share the wealth with the Libyan people, wanted to bring back the gold standard and built and improved water systems that were meant to benefit many African nations. He pleaded with the UN to help him diplomatically. Saddam was big buddies with the American Government for decades and his Country enjoyed a much higher standard of living then many other Middle Eastern Countries. Here's the thing people need to understand and this is a tough one to wrap our minds around coming from the West.

There are very violent, extreme groups "tribes" that have been at "War" with each other for hundreds of years before the USA even existed. Violent means were necessary perhaps to keep order. Terrorism wasn't gonna be tolerated by these "dictators" and they meant it ! Ironic huh? The intervention by the "UN", ultimately lead by Americans forces has made these people's life's and Countries much less stable. It's certainly much more complicated then we have been lead to believe.

As for all these people fleeing their War torn Countries, it's a horrible mess that has no easy answers. It's quite telling that other Muslim Countries won't take them, it's also quite disturbing that these people are arriving in groups of predominately young males, they left behind their woman and children or worse threw them off the boats ? Do the average citizens in Western Countries have a right to be concerned, ABSOLUTELY !! We have groups of Angry young men flooding the streets of Countries lacking the resources to support them, coming from violent backgrounds and cultures.

if you even bothered to watch even if only the video interview of the second generation Muslim, he stated that England owes them everything they ask for because of colonialism and the crusades... You seem to forget, as well as he, that the Christian crusades were a response to the Muslim crusades and the invasion from Muslims in the 7th century on Europe. So, do Muslim countries owe us everything we ask for because of the Muslim crusades and Muslim imperialism?

That is one mans opinion, he doesn't speak for all. I know someone (likely a few) on this site that belives the queen is a lizard, reality is a hologram and lots more crazy things....does he (they) speak for us all here?

A lady in america refused to issue a marrage licence to a gay couple as its against her religious beliefs, does she speak for all Christians?

Do racists speak for everyone of the same colour skin?

[insert another thousand examples of how one persons words are suddenly interpreted as everyones]

a reply to: Rocker2013

You are conveniently missing the point. These economic migrants are attempting to enter other countries ILLEGALLY bypassing normal immigration laws & controls by immersing themselves in with the real refugees. I have nothing against immigrants wanting a better life but when it boils down to them refusing to resettle in certain countries because they don't like that countrys' benefits system...I think that's taking tolerance a bit too bloody far!

And don't please call me ignorant because I'm not some bleeding heart liberal tree hugger that welcomes all comers with open arms to a country unable to even look after its own indigenous population, I doubt many on here are ignorant...

originally posted by: Rocker2013


Those dirty poor people! How dare they want a better life working damn hard in a country which actually gives them an opportunity to work!?

I don't feel hatred for these people. Yet, I perceive a real problem happening.

I keep seeing posts around here on this situation suggesting that the people from Africa and the the Middle East are the same in behavior and motivation as the mexican and latin American immigrants that come to the US!

Religious backgrounds are relevant in how well a group is able to integrate and co-habit with another. Even atheist Americans are most often influenced by the ethics of Protestantism- the concept that hard and diligent work (which is a virtue) will result in material abundance, as a natural (or God given) sign of ones virtuous nature.
The Catholic based ethics will continue on to even more virtue by how well you refuse to benefit from that "sign" -refusing it or giving it away to those more needy.

So whether the people are keeping and enjoying their reward, or keeping their head low in virtuous poverty, they have in common that they are striving to work hard and be a constructive part of the community. That makes for a compatibility.

What I observe here in the mediterranean, at least, is that the immigrants and refugees from this country have vastly different ethical systems. Where the females seem to be conditioned to strive for hard work and honesty, the males have a conditioned drive to try to "beat" whatever system is in place, as proof of their intelligence and wit. (intelligence being closer to Godliness than hard work...hence women being further than men...)

This may have a proper place within a system that is corrupt or totalitarian. It is a survival necessity, and countering "evil"
abusers of power can only be "good".

But the problem, as I see it, is that these behaviors are so deeply ingrained, they do not cease to exist even when the people have reached a system they wanted to be within. They persist. The women continue to strive to be honest, hardworking, and compassionate.... the men continue to try to be intelligent by breaking rules, by cheating, by lying, by using all sorts of corrupt means of getting out of responsibility (as positions of responsibility continue to be seen as "evil").

Where financial abundance can be sign of Godliness, it is only so when it was gained without falling into the lower less virtuous behaviors of hard and diligent work (which is only for the less intelligent beast of the world like women).

This is a profound difference between the latino immigrants the US has, and the african immigrants Europe is taking in on a mass scale. I have colleagues I work with, and even the arab women are resentful to see the male arabs bragging all the time about how they used extortion, bribery, lies, false ass kissing, to get benefits for themselves.

In a country that has, for example, universal medical care and wide social security benefits, that (contrary to the american idea, are not "free" ) we are each paying for, this is a huge problem! They are not cheating out some rich tyrannical ruler- they are cheating out regular middle class and lower class citizens.
They don't seem to really ever grasp that part, as they continue to brag to their colleagues as if they don't get it is their colleagues they are taking advantage of.