The Battle of Los Angeles 1942 : New Light on the Original Picture?

a reply to: Wolfenz

Palmer was not a witness. Am I correct?
How does his recounting of the incident add more information than the newspaper articles about it?

a reply to: Phage

The descriptions show that some people thought they saw something within the lights. Do you disregard those who say they saw planes? Do you disregard those who say they saw nothing? Why?

I don't believe they saw planes that night. You cannot see an aircraft at night without lights and if there were aircraft with lights in the sky that night, the gunners would have known they were not enemy aircraft and would have been alerted by local command anyway if friendly aircraft were airborne.

I can take the TWA 800 incident as an example where witnesses thought they saw a missile heading toward the aircraft, but when I looked at the details, I found that they misidentified the wreckage of was was left of TWA 800 after its forward fuselage separated that left the aircraft in a tail-heavy condition which forced the aircraft into a steep climb and from a distance, the climbing flaming wreckage would have looked like a missile.

Taking another example, when an airliner crashed on landing, some witnesses said that the aircraft was on fire before it struck the ground while others said that aircraft did not catch fire until is struck the ground. In other words, you are going to have conflicting eyewitness accounts which means that a further investigation is in order, even after auto accidents, you can expect conflicting accounts on what happened.

Do you disregard this?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you are referring to that photo, the question I have is; How many anti-aircraft shells were fired at the light relection?

a reply to: skyeagle409

I don't believe they saw planes that night.

Ok. You think the witness that say they saw aircraft were mistaken. Why do you not think that others may have been?

In other words, you are going to have conflicting eyewitness accounts which means that a further investigation is in order, even after auto accidents, you can expect conflicting accounts on what happened.

Yes. My point exactly. Eyewitness reports are not reliable. Yet you choose to believe the accounts of something that looked UFOey and ignore the rest. Cherry picking.

If you are referring to that photo, the question I have is; How many anti-aircraft shells were fired at the light relection?

Does it matter? Does it look like a round object?

a reply to: Wolfenz

I found this interesting from your link.

It covered Los Angeles County from to Santa Monica to Pomona. At 2:27 all southern California radio stations were ordered off the air except those in San Diego. Approximately 20 minutes after the firing died down, the ship returned and headed westward from Long Beach towards Santa Monica. The guns went into action again hurling round after round of shells at the object.

The second barrage appeared to be closer to downtown Los Angeles, since watchers could hear the concussion of the guns more clearly and the flash of bursting shells was brighter.

Then the ship disappeared for the second time over the ocean.

The ship returned for a second time over the ocean, and that is very significant because the first radar contact was 120 miles west of Los Angeles, which was confirmed by multiple radars. In other words, the object was first picked up from the west and then flew overland toward Long Beach. Not long afterward, the object reversed its course and contact was lost over the ocean.

The 180 degree reversal of its course shows that the UFO could not have been a balloon.

a reply to: Phage

Ok. You think the witness that say they saw aircraft were mistaken.

Yes.

Why do you not think that others may have been?

I can't say for sure, but they were not aircraft. The focus was on one object only and it would have been insane for a commanding officer to send up aircraft into a barrage of that magnitude especially without notifying anti-aircraft ground forces in the area , but as you can see in the photos, the searchlights are focusing on one object only.

a reply to: skyeagle409

first radar contact was 120 miles west of Los Angeles, which was confirmed by multiple radars.

Not exactly. Then, taking into account the state of readiness of the equipment and operators (radar then was not what it is today), the radar reports are hardly reliable.

Equally serious was the problem of equipment. In a report filled with illuminating detail, the British expert found our seaward reconnaissance grossly inefficient because of the total lack of ASV equipment and because of the limited number of patrol aircraft of suitable range. The radar screen along the West Coast was based on too few stations, and the equipment itself had inherent defects which made it "gravely unsuitable." All radar experts were agreed that each set represented a compromise between a variety of demands, but the principal American radar was "unique in combining slow search with poor cover in elevation, with lack of all facilities for eight finding, and with a grave danger of plotting false tracks." Moreover, dependable employment of this radar had been made even more unlikely because of a mistake in the selection of sites for its installation. Personnel to operate the radars had not been carefully selected and were inadequate both in numbers and in training. The United States was found to have repeated an early error of Britain in failing to provide for the training of large numbers of skilled radar technicians.

www.ibiblio.org...

Poorly trained radar operators using poor equipment which was poorly installed. As a result there could be (and were) many false reports. Have you heard about the "second" Pearl Harbor attack on March 7, 1942?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Wolfenz

Palmer was not a witness. Am I correct?
How does his recounting of the incident add more information than the newspaper articles about it?

I would Assume he was. but then again ...

HE Lived and Died in L.A. ( Pun intended )

even tho he said this ! in his Broadcast ( listen to the Audio ) also

Watchers on a rooftop of the Columbia Broadcasting building in the heart of Hollywood could plainly see the flashes of guns and searchlights sweeping the skies in a wide arc along the coastal area. Concussion of the shells could be felt in downtown Los Angeles 15 miles away.

www.nww2m.com...

So Aperently His Buddies his Coworkers were there during the event and on the Roof Top.


Bryon Plamer was a New Reporter turned Actor ..

and WOW he was only 22 when the Event of LA hapened


Byron Palmer
en.wikipedia.org...

Born: June 21, 1920, Los Angeles, CA
Died: September 30, 2009, Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, Los Angeles CA,

Byron Palmer
Obituary
www.legacy.com...

(Find a Grave )
Byron Palmer
www.findagrave.com...

Entertainer. He began his career with CBS as a radio announcer. He performed as a vocalist on radio with the group the Music Mates while stationed in the Pacific serving with the United States Army Air Forces during World War II.

for how he was more detailed in infomation then the local
News papers...

Simple Answer is..

The Reporters back then Rushed right to the Radio Broadcaster for
the Infomation to go on the Air of what has been just told ,
Same thing Happend in Roswell too as there is News Broadcast
as well in that event.

you have to rememeber Phage ,

Back then, Reporters swarmed to get the First Bite of the
First News for the Company's they worked for.


and Just Maybe they had some type Audio Wire Recorder
on hand. as there is different possibility's in how they got the information.

I bet the Phone Lines were quite Busy in those days 24th 25th 26th.
of Feb 1942 the phone line Operators must of had a bad day !

well another good guess is

at the CBS Station they probably got tons of reports from Reporters
out on the Job handed it in personally at the station ,
reporter called it in and confirmed it, and a secretary wrote it down
from the other line, during the event and the after math ..

well how long did it take after the assassination of JFK for Zappruder
( the Man that filmed the Famous Film of the death of JFK ) to go to the
Local TV News Station. ? I know in the matter of 2 Hours or less !!

here is that new cast live
www.youtube.com...

(note) they didn't have Oswald yet

a reply to: Wolfenz

Back then, Reporters swarmed to get the First Bite of the
First News for the Company's they worked for.

Yes, no matter how inaccurate it may have been (note the part about planes). They still do that.

a reply to: Phage

Not exactly. Then, taking into account the state of readiness of the equipment and operators (radar then was not what it is today), the radar reports are hardly reliable.

The object was confirmed by multiple and I might add, dissimilar radar systems, which is very significant. If you remember, radar picked up Japanese aircraft as they approached Oahu, Hawaii, but the aircraft were thought to be American bombers.

The fact that two SCR-270 radars confirmed the radar contact of the SCR-268 is very significant indeed.

Poorly trained radar operators using poor equipment which was poorly installed. As a result there could be (and were) many false reports. Have you heard about the "second" Pearl Harbor attack on March 7, 1942?

Yes, and American radar stations on Kauai and Oahu detected and tracked the aircraft as well.

a reply to: skyeagle409

The fact that two SCR-270 radars confirmed the radar contact of the SCR-268 is very significant indeed.

I'm not sure what you're talking about now. The range of the 268 was 22 miles and that seems to be the only station which "tracked" the contact. What contact was "confirmed"? You know that it takes more than a simultaneous contact to confirm an object? Did the radars provide the same location information? At the same time? I'm not sure that would be possible with the 270:

The unit's heart was the oscilloscope that gave a picture similar to a heart monitor in hospitals today. The operator would move the antenna through a given arc until the line across the bottom showed a small spike or pip. By adjusting the antenna and the controls, the pip was enhanced until the operator could tell the approximate distance to the target. Next, the operator looked out the window to a plate mounted on the antenna base, with an arrow on it that would give the direction of the contact. Unlike today's radar scopes, the antenna did not oscillate and there was no constant repainting of the picture on the scope. This system did not tell an incoming target's altitude, its size or number, nor did it differentiate friend from foe.

www.skylighters.org...
And remember, these guys were not highly trained.

Yes, and American radar stations on Kauai and Oahu detected and tracked the aircraft as well.

Tracked? Not really. The aircraft were able to drop their bombs on Honolulu. Three days after that, there was a false contact reported which resulted in a minor panic (compared to the Battle of LA). False contacts happened. Often.
books.google.com...=onepage&q&f=false

Have you heard about the "second" Pearl Harbor attack on March 7, 1942?

a reply to: Phage

The second attack against Pearl Harbor (March 3-4, 1942) was real in that Japanese aircraft were involved

Operation "K" - 2 Kawanishi H8K long range flying boats Allied code name "EMILY" took off from Japanese held Marshals
islands (WOTJE)

en.wikipedia.org...

Refueled by submarines at deserted atoll, French Frigate Shoals, halfway between Pearl Harbor and Midway

Attempt was to disrupt salvage and recovery efforts Planes carried 4 250 kg (550 lb) bombs Target was 1010
dock at Pearl.

Because of cloud cover missed target dropping bombs on Mt Tantalus or the Pacific Ocean

Second attempt was schedule for March 6-7, but was delayed because of damage to one of the planes

On March 10 one of the planes was used in attempt to scout US installations at Midway. Radar picked up planes and Marine fighters vectored to it and shot it down

Admiral Nitmitz ordered measures to prevent any further such operations - the atolls between Midway and Hawaii had
guardships posted , minefield laid at French Frigate Shoals (which claimed patrol boat YP 277)

Attempt by Japanese to repeat Operation K at end of May 1942 failed when spotted US ships and patrol planes
at the various atolls.

a reply to: firerescue

The second attack against Pearl Harbor (March 3-4, 1942) was real in that Japanese aircraft were involved

Except that it wasn't much of an attack and the planes were not "tracked" by radar.

a reply to: Phage

Except that it wasn't much of an attack and the planes were not "tracked" by radar.

Let's take a look here.

The 2nd Raid On Pearl Harbor

Kaui radar first picked up the flying boats about twenty miles off the coast, headed toward Oahu. The alert went out. Fighter planes were scrambled, searchlights turned on, and anti-aircraft guns manned. But it was a moonless, rainy night and even with vectors from the WARD radar operators, the fighter planes had no success in finding the flying boats.

pacific-islander.blogspot.com...

a reply to: skyeagle409

Let's take a look here.

Ok. Where does it say the planes were tracked?
If they were tracked, how is it they managed to penetrate all the air defenses and drop their bombs without a shot being fired at them? At that time US radar installations, and training, sucked (to put it mildly).

How about that false contact a few days later?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Wolfenz

Back then, Reporters swarmed to get the First Bite of the
First News for the Company's they worked for.

Yes, no matter how inaccurate it may have been (note the part about planes). They still do that.

yes from Bryon Palmer's Report ..



lets Look at, that again ..

. US Army planes quickly took to the dark skies but whether
they contacted the object has not been announced.

Army officials say they will not comment until they receive a
full report on the action. Although some watchers say they saw
airplanes in the air, semi-official sources say they probably were the
US Army’s pursuit. Several observers say they saw one or more planes
spotlighted by 20 or 30 searchlights.

Army Officials say they will not Comment until they receive a full report . ??

Sounds like the report of American planes in the Air from an unknown
Army Official and will not commit till its confirmed of what they saw
when questioned from a reporter.

yet some say that the planes were on stand by , but never went up ..
now you think they would go into pursuit seeing if they were shelling
the dam thing for a half an hour. and the Object was detected by
a 268 radar and 270 radar in the first place.. for the reason for the
controlled blackout .. and we have witnesses saying that there was
planes tracking the object , and the object went 25 miles in
a half an hour but your right , it would of been suicide for any plane
thats going to into pursuit from all the shelling and flack ..

but maybe at the beginning it did & after the object
went towards the pacific..

speaking of which .. if it was a plane that survived the
shelling and flack ( a Miracle ) and it went towards the Pacific.
sounds like a Japanese Float plane to me.

as one witness said he seen planes tracking behind the object .
but said it was never reported. and that would be MR littleton
of course he was 9years old at the time although his parents lived
right at the Beach a the Object went by his parents house. as he
and his mother had front row seats .. i still get a kick when he said
his mother said the object looked like a Sliver Bug !

although this doesn't look like a silver bug
and seems like an easy target build for range (400 miles ) not speed
lowest speed 85 miles an hour. and should be easily identified
when it has those huge pontoons to keep it afloat..

Still , could it ? of it been a JAP Float Plane , I could of
as something was detected on Radar . a Civilian Plane ?
perhaps , a Weather Balloon i say Hardly. as it those were near
the mountain range were they shot at ? or was it Flack or Shrapnel
taking them Down from all the Shelling

a reply to: Wolfenz

yet some say that the planes were on stand by , but never went up ..
now you think they would go into pursuit seeing if they were shelling
the dam thing for a half an hour.

Actually, going airborne into a sky full of flak seems like a pretty bad idea.

Still , could it ? of it been a JAP Float Plane , I could of
as something was detected on Radar

A remote possibility. Supposedly I-17 never launched her plane in US waters. I tend to think the radar reports were more of the anomalous propagation type than actual contacts.

I think after the disaster at Pearl most radar operators would report "anything" that was heading towards US soil..

nice job OP

a reply to: Phage

In the Operation "K" on March 3-4, radar on Kauai picked up the inbound Japanese - P40 fighters were launched to
intercept the Japanese.

Because of heavy cloud cover unable to locate the Japanese, same for Japanese. Due to the clouds
could not find Pearl Harbor - pilots salvo ed bombs based on dead reckoning positions which resulted in missed
by miles intended target

At Midway 4 days later the radar on island picked up the Japanese recon flight - was able to vector Marine
fighters to it shooting it down.

WAs not especially accurate the radars worked by detecting Japanese aircraft

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Wolfenz

yet some say that the planes were on stand by , but never went up ..
now you think they would go into pursuit seeing if they were shelling
the dam thing for a half an hour.

Actually, going airborne into a sky full of flak seems like a pretty bad idea.

Still , could it ? of it been a JAP Float Plane , I could of
as something was detected on Radar

A remote possibility. Supposedly I-17 never launched her plane in US waters. I tend to think the radar reports were more of the anomalous propagation type than actual contacts.

I meant , before the they called for Artillery Fire.. or just as it left into the pacific
or they could had a cease fire. for the plane to go up.
as i said , it would be suicide lol..

as i heard somewhere that the plane were on stand by .
that meant the planes were already prepped up
and ready to go on the run way.
and usually mean's they the plane's engines are running.
and the pilots are in the cockpit.

but a cease fire would take a while to stop.


I have read that the planes were P-40s and P-38s for coastal fighters




Well for the I-17 i haven't seen info that it actually left the Area either.
so it a strong possibility on Dec 20th it sunk USS Emidio

SS Emidio
en.wikipedia.org...

The Japanese submarine I-17 found Emidio off Cape Mendocino on the early afternoon of 20 December 1941 and hit the tanker with five shells from its 14-cm deck gun. Five crewmen were killed and the remainder reached Blunts Reef lightship in lifeboats. A Catalina flying boat of 44 Patrol Squadron attacked I-17 with depth charges, but the submarine dove and escaped

That's 653. miles from Los Angeles DEC 20th

So Shelling from mainland ( oil fields )
123 miles from L.A. Dec 19th

so it going the opposite direction..

unless it came back round again to L.A.

it Had 3 to 4 days to do it then again the Fuel must of been low

or it was another Float plane sub

So where was the Japanese Float plane subs around Feb of 1942 ?

a Nice Candidate!

I-21 (possible)

SS Montebello was an oil tanker sunk by the Japanese submarine, I-21, off the coast of California on December 23, 1941

en.wikipedia.org...

so were was I-21 up to Feb 25th 1942 ?

I-23 (hmm IDK )
Loss of I-23

Loss of I-23 On 24 February 1942, at 23:30 I-23 transmitted her last report from the Hawaii area. Presumed lost with all of her ninety-six sailors somewhere off the Oahu coast of Hawaii, including the Combined Fleet staff officer LtCdr Konishi Masayoshi, she was removed from the Navy List on 30 April 1942.[

I-25 ( and 8 other Submarines ?? on patrol the west coast ) left the Area in jan 1942

I-25 and three other submarines patrolled a line 222 km (120 nmi; 138 mi) north of Oahu during the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. After the Japanese aircraft carriers sailed west following the attack, I-25 and eight other submarines sailed eastwards to patrol the west coast of the United States. I-25 patrolled off the mouth of the Columbia River. A scheduled shelling of American coastal cities on Christmas eve of 1941 was canceled because of the frequency of coastal air and surface patrols

8 subs patrolling the West coast of the US ahh... ok wiki lol


I-26 ( Possible )

After searching unsuccessfully for the aircraft carrier USS Lexington following the attack on Pearl Harbor, I-26 patrolled off the entrance to the Strait of Juan de Fuca. A scheduled bombardment of American coastal cities on Christmas eve of 1941 was canceled because of the frequency of coastal air and surface patrols

en.wikipedia.org...


I-28 ( Possible ) ?

I-28 was commissioned at Kobe, Japan on February 6, 1942. The submarine participated in the Battle of the Coral Sea in May 1942.

I-15 ( IDK )
where was I-15 on Feb of 1942 ??
en.wikipedia.org...



www.dezinfo.net...

A remote possibility. Supposedly I-17 never launched her plane in US waters. I tend to think the radar reports were more of the anomalous propagation type than actual contacts.

that what they say. who knows
the crew would be in big trouble if the were
not supposed to be there in the first place
and if it wasn't for an attack but for scouting out surveying the area
looking for something to reported like major factories or oil fields as
the Japaneses goal was targeting the oil fields on the pacific coast

and for it being propagation .. seeing the day before
California coast was being shelled on its Oil Fields in Elwood .

and sinking a few ships along the Coast. and a few being attacked and escaped before the 24th
would be a sign of Readiness and Alertness