Microwaves: Making Your Car or SpaceShip Fly!

originally posted by: proob4
Thanks, saved whole page in case of a 404 deletion.
Why cause you should give a whole safety advisory on what a magnetron can do and the harm in can create to a person.
I made a violent weapon from a 1500 watt microwave in the 80's (basically a ray gun). Even with shields, gloves and all, I still got burns all over my forearms. I would not recommend anyone mess with tearing apart microwave ovens and playing with the magnetron.

I thought i had that all shielded and I was wrong. I still got scars from that. not nothing needing real burnward hospital help, but yea molten metal beads showering me and burning holes all over my forearms.

I don't play with microwave ovens!

My masers and microwave systems START AT the 20,000 WATT range
and go waaaaaaaay above that sometimes up to 150 KW! We use
extensive shielding and humans are NOWHERE NEAR the systems!
It's all remote controlled. We use them to melt certain esoteric
materials QUICKLY for aerospace applications.

Someone...... needs a girl friend.


Get back to me when there is a small enough energy source that can propagate... this "Technology".


No stars... no flags.


Disdain.

originally posted by: StargateSG7
...only RECENTLY has the
AVERAGE mechanical/aerospace engineer been able to
access such advanced technology using modern 3D printing
methods that will allow ANYONE to make a Microwave
Cavity Resonator For Direct Microwave Summing ...

Most actual mechanical/aerospace engineers send their plumbing to a machine shop to be fabricated.

It's pretty straightforward. If I can't get a machinist, I can do it myself, but I'm a lot slower at it.

ps - "maser" sounds uber cool and stuff, but most masers are extremely low power output. It's got to do with the low energy per photon. If you had a CARM or FEL, you can get a decent output, but those are pretty oddball. So saying you have a 150kW maser is sort of hard to believe.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: StargateSG7
...only RECENTLY has the
AVERAGE mechanical/aerospace engineer been able to
access such advanced technology using modern 3D printing
methods that will allow ANYONE to make a Microwave
Cavity Resonator For Direct Microwave Summing ...

Most actual mechanical/aerospace engineers send their plumbing to a machine shop to be fabricated.

It's pretty straightforward. If I can't get a machinist, I can do it myself, but I'm a lot slower at it.

ps - "maser" sounds uber cool and stuff, but most masers are extremely low power output. It's got to do with the low energy per photon. If you had a CARM or FEL, you can get a decent output, but those are pretty oddball. So saying you have a 150kW maser is sort of hard to believe.

---

Actually it's quite easy to do if you have access to someone
who can blow custom glass and make a HUGE VACUUM TUBE
to create a Gyrotron (which we DO have!)

Gyrotron:
en.wikipedia.org...

The other issue I SHOULD MAKE NOTE OF we do use
MULTIPLE MASERS to form 150 KW beam arrays but
we DO HAVE experimental single-MASER
(i.e. Microwave Amplification by Stimulated
Emission of Radiation) system that actually goes
ABOVE 150 KW but that's for something ELSE! ;-) ;-)

It's GREAT for cooking up ceramic composites and
metals REAL QUICK so they flow like runny water
for specialty layering and depositing into complex
shapes that have fully enclosed cavities.

As you can read in the above link, a Gyrotron can
go up to the Gigawatt range and more! Again,
the only problem is finding an OLD SCHOOL GLASS
BLOWER who can custom make you a vacuum tube
out of specialty glass!

a reply to: StargateSG7

And for safety reasons due to microwave reflection and deflection
off of highly charged plasmas and incidental area superheating,
we don't go near the thing when it's operational!

Even a 20 KW MASER will completely toast you
much less a 150 KW beam array!

And while I am quite familiar with the system's internals
I should note I DO NOT have a Mechanical Engineering degree
nor a Physics degree in Optical/Microwave Systems but I could
in an emergency build a rudimentary LASER/MASER with only
mild help from our engineers.

Oooooooh !!!! I think that makes me just a little D-A-N-G-E-R-O-U-S !!!
--- Probably to myself that is....!!!! ----

originally posted by: YeahYea4
Someone...... needs a girl friend.


Get back to me when there is a small enough energy source that can propagate... this "Technology".


No stars... no flags.


Disdain.

---

We're LUCKY up here in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
as we have the 5th largest WIDE AREA hydroelectric power
generation system on Earth so our power is CHEAP compared
to most of North America.

So powering a 150 KW beam array or a 150 KW+ Single MASER
isn't all that much of a problem. Just keep paying the power bill!

a reply to: StargateSG7

hey great thread. tons of stuff for me to peruse. as you know I'm on a journey to understand this type of propulsion, as I believe I have actually seen it performing before.

regarding microwaves. didn't they make some kinda of metamaterial that had a biase as to which direction it will and will not allow microwaves to permeate. so if the micro waves hit the material, once layered in a certain way, it would actually not be allowed to penetrate and actually pushed the material around and created thrust. said it worked best with a sawtoothed wave. project winterhaven or something like that.

as for power supply. pretty sure folks have got that figured out. a enigmatic personality who no longer posts on ats said that the new aircraft that operate using this sort of technology actually run on batteries these days.

then there's lockheed s fusion device they claim is small enough to fit in a pick up truck bed. usually when Lockheed says they are coming out with it in 15 years it means they've already fielded one for 15 years.


don't worry about other members hitching about your format. it looks just fine to me. and yes i primarimy access ats via my mobile so someone appreciated your effort.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

Metamaterials are good for using as the
Outer skin of an aircraft, vehicle or
stationary object within optical and acoustic
Stealth systems since the engineered and
3D printed or stamped microchannels and microcavities can be made out of high density
And tough Plastics that can redirect or absorb light and soundwave signals without damage.

With microwaves, power levels are MUCH higher
which ends up causing localized heating to such
an extent that metamaterial use in microwave-
oriented propulsion systems or even as an
Anti-radar stealth system is problematic unless
an inflexible and heat resistant material is used
such as alumina ceramic composites.

For propulsion systems, you need to use
Direct jetting and summing of multiple beams
In order to use microwaves as a propulsion
system. During low altitude flights you can use
the ground as a reflective medium almost in the
Same way as a hovercraft uses a cushion of air
But using multiple beams to form a series of
standing waves which make up the "microwave
cushion" that an aircraft can "sit on".

High altitude flight can use multiple
microwave-based means such as superheating
Air or vapourizing fuel droplets to form millions
of high speed mini-explosions underneath a
hemispherical cavity which then focus and form
a reactive force...its noisy but the easiest one to
do for high altitude flight using microwaves.

Another is to selectively heat a vapourous medium
At high power such as hydrogen gas or methane
Within a multi layer tunnelling system so that a plasmadynamic vortex is created thus creating
A plasma jet with no moving parts. Its almost
An identical design to a Dyson vacuum cleaner
Just bigger and more powerful with the vortexing
Created by computer controlled, ultrafast selective
Heating rather than an electric fan.

Another means is to use rings of microwaves as
A containment system that forms a virtual rocket
nozzle so that OTHER propulsive material is
directed in the desired direction of movement.
That propulsive material can streams of charged particles, acoustic waves, heated gasses, gravity waves (;-), etc.

There is lots of research going on now for such
Propulsion systems (See my Earlier links!) and
The issue of powering a microwave propulsion
System is now almost moot!

A 120 kw methane or hydrogen fuel cell
Can now be made the same size as THREE
home fridges...i.e. Ballard Fuel Cell...so a
Power generator on a larger aircraft is
No longer such a big deal!

a reply to: StargateSG7

Gyrotrons are not masers though.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

Where do they get the power in that upcoming laser plane one might wonder. I had thought a nice fusion reactor might be sweet as well.

But you could do a ducky job with a jet engine with a major alternator or a really sweet MHD rig.

originally posted by: Bedlam
a reply to: StargateSG7

Gyrotrons are not masers though.

The only difference being coherence...
or using an analogy from the related field
Of lasers is monochromacity.

The output beam of a gyrotron covers
Millimetre wavelengths...ergo a Maser-like
Beam forming device that can be pulsed
Or continous wave in output.

I am NOT an accredited physicist so i must
Defer to our engineers who in a rather roundabout
Way have indicated to me that on a practical
Level for the purposes of superheating materials
And for propulsion purposes a gyrotron and maser
Have minor differences.

What I personally can say is that a custom
Hand blown vacuum tube was an acceptable
Solution for creating a very high power beam forming device at around 30 ghz and below
Usable for our purposes.

Since one of the rf/mw engineers was a tube
Audio afficionado, he suggested a scaled up
Version as a reasonably cheap beam forming
Device that could handle the input power.

It then was a matter of finding an old style and
local glass blower and air evacuator system that
would fit the bill for creating a final vacuum tube
product.

originally posted by: Bedlam
a reply to: BASSPLYR

Where do they get the power in that upcoming laser plane one might wonder. I had thought a nice fusion reactor might be sweet as well.

But you could do a ducky job with a jet engine with a major alternator or a really sweet MHD rig.

In a larger plane just add multiple fridge-sized fuel cells and enough hydrogen or methane
Or even LNG fuel to use as the power generation
System for the beam forming device. Total weight
Penalty is probably around 20 thousand pounds
Which is doable on a 70,000+ pound aircraft!

originally posted by: StargateSG7

originally posted by: Bedlam
a reply to: StargateSG7

Gyrotrons are not masers though.

The only difference being coherence...
or using an analogy from the related field
Of lasers is monochromacity.

The output beam of a gyrotron covers
Millimetre wavelengths...ergo a Maser-like
Beam forming device that can be pulsed
Or continous wave in output.

I am NOT an accredited physicist so i must
Defer to our engineers who in a rather roundabout
Way have indicated to me that on a practical
Level for the purposes of superheating materials
And for propulsion purposes a gyrotron and maser
Have minor differences.

You got the "m" and leave off the "aser" with a gyrotron. The term "maser" has implications of how the device functions. If it's not making a beam by stimulating emission of radiation from an inversion it ain't a laser or maser.

The minor differences is that gyrotrons don't even begin to work that way. But it does sound cooler to call it that.

a reply to: Bedlam

Again, I must defer to our engineers
who all have M.Sc.'s and one with a PHD
so I really cannot make a definitive
statement as to the internals of
a Gyrotron OTHER THAN what I have
read up on in peer reviewed papers
(and wikipedia!)

My area of expertise is software design
for Encryption and Multi-Screen High-speed
video playback, recording and broadcast systems
plus real-time machine/flight control (i.e. UAV's)

All I know is that we have a beam forming device
in the 30 GHZ range and that I am NOT to stand
in front of it EVER! :-)

a reply to: Bedlam

flame jet generator. like in the landum case? or the b2a?

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: Bedlam

flame jet generator. like in the landum case? or the b2a?

Um, you can do wondrous things with a jet engine and MHD rigs on the intakes and exhaust.

a reply to: Bedlam

where were you when ive been saying this in the aviation threads for a year now! everytime I mention anything like that over there the whole thread clams up and nobody talks for a day.


i like this thread and op.


here's my question. if you are creating a microwave cushion by bouncing the beam off the ground. can't you easily fry someone in proximity? or at least wouldnt there be piezo like effects vibrating the crap out of things below. like my thorax.

also wouldnt setting up a M P C beam do wonders for generating an intense "cushion"
over time and alleviate some of the power required to maintain. like couldn't one build up the intensity by just the M P C mechanism alone? I'm asking cause you guys care the experts and im the haplessguy who saw something I shouldnt and was left reeling trying to figure it all out. still trying to figure out that pretty blue white color. probably some bremsstralung but i wanna say cherenkov, since that looked more like it. but what do I know really. I'm just an excitable lad.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
where were you when ive been saying this in the aviation threads for a year now! everytime I mention anything like that over there the whole thread clams up and nobody talks for a day.

Which part? The MHD thing is one of those things you're not supposed to discuss in great detail.

If THAT'S what's getting you a dead phone, that's the reason why.

a reply to: Bedlam

hopefully you read that before I erased it. but those are my thoughts about that whole episode.

a reply to: Bedlam

good to know about the mhd no go in the aviation thread. always suspected but good to know.

i hereby promise in the aviation thread i will desist in bringing up mhd. seriously.