Could abortion be considered a double standard?

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

I am sorry you have had extremely challenging pregnancies, and what you say is true, I personally have family members that there second child cost them their marriage, as you say if the pregnancy is that challenging and the aftermath isn't pleasant either. But so many new parents have related to me how wonderful it is to have a new baby in their lives too, even the totally unplanned ones. The physical , mental and emotional health of the woman combined with the level of support the father offers are huge variables, and it's hard to know what those will all be in the end once the woman discovers she is pregnant.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: DenyObfuscation

But she's not killing it. She's merely removing it from her body. If it can't survive on its own...

Like a prematurely born child, left on its own... to die?

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: DenyObfuscation

But she's not killing it. She's merely removing it from her body. If it can't survive on its own...

Right. If it is "its own separate body", then all it should need is food and warmth and it will be fine. But until it is viable, it is not its own separate body, it is part of the woman's body. As long at it is part of the woman's body, the woman has the final say.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

what they are saying is that it is them that got you pregnant, so now, well, it should be them that decides weather the baby should be aborted or not, and they are arguing that it is their financial power that has always been preserved throughout the ages that is what enables them to make the decision!!
so how this would probably play out in the real world is...
get pregnant the first time, well, no don't have the abortion, which well, will eliminate much of the women's earning power, man decides he doesn't want to take charge of the little tyke while she works, so well, she ends up being a stay at home mom.....
second child, well, man thinks he can handle the financial burden so no have the kid, the time the women is looking forward to when she can get back into the work force is pushed further into the future... he can now decide that the insurance for the second car can't be fit into the budget and instead sells the car and leaves her stranded and isolated.

but eventually, maybe after the second, or maybe the third, he will decide that HIS BUDGET can't take the impact of another kid and his no to abortion will be a yes.... and his "Why should I have to watch the kids after a hard days work so you can have a job" will turn into a "the kids are in school all day, why don't you get a job" and he will expect her to walk around town all day applying for jobs, wondering why it is taking her months for find someone who will hire her after years of empty work experience on her record. he will even expect her to walk to work till the bills get straightened out and the money is found for the second car again...but he will still expect her to call in, take off work early, whenever the children need their attention because well it's only feasible that the one who earns the least amount of money be the one that loses time at work when it's needed. he will also expect her to work those 40 hours, come home, clean the house, cook the food, help the kids with their homework, see to their baths, and all the other good stuff that is involved with making the home run smoothly. ya he might make a few token gestures from time to time to "help out" heck he might even take over some things like buying the groceries and making sure the bills are paid....heck he might be so helpful in the financial area that all you have to do is sign your paycheck and give it to him in exchange for $20 or $30 dollars and you won't even need a debit card of checkbook to the bank account!!! heck eventually he might even decide that you are such an inadequate wife because you can't live on 4 hours a sleep at night while working a 40 hour week, be on call for the kids 24/7, keep the house spotless, and not burn the dinner once in awhile!!! and you will find him bring up his stay at home women friends who's houses are in order, and kids are so perfect! he might even decide that it's better to move out, and find someone else to be his maid!!!

oh yes, women have it so easy!!!!!!

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

Well, if it's prematurely born. And far enough along to survive outside the womb, then by all means feed it formula, wrap it in a blanket, etc.

Until it's BORN it is completely up to the woman....you know, the other person with her own separate body...to sustain it with her own. Therefore she should be the one to decide whether or not she can do that (physically, emotionally).

Besides we're jacking the thread with a tangent. Back on topic:

So, I'm assuming you believe the man should have a say in whether or not an abortion takes place. Would you say he has input, or the deciding vote? What if the man is abusive and he knows that if the woman has his child she'll be dependent on him? Does that guy get the deciding vote too? Or would that instance be ok for the woman to make the decision on her own?

Sometimes LIFE ISN'T FAIR!

Once a girl becomes about 13, she starts bleeding every month. And every woman is different, but it isn't like, "I got a boo-boo" bleeding. It's 5+ days of cramping, bloating, nausea, blood clots, messes, ruined clothes, embarrassment and so on. MANY women have cramps so bad, they have to miss work. I missed a day of work EVERY MONTH for many years, while I squirmed in bed, took prescribed drugs that barely touched the pain, and made messes that looked like a bloody death scene. This goes on for 30-some YEARS of a woman's life.

At 30, then I met the love of my life, I miraculously became pregnant (I had been told by doctors that I wouldn't be able to), but I was glad to have a 9 month respite from the monthly painful blood-shed. I was ecstatic about having a baby! My (now) husband and I were SO excited! We started making plans to move to a larger place and we announced the pregnancy to everyone. About 8 weeks into the pregnancy, I started spotting blood. I went to have an ultrasound and they couldn't find the baby in my uterus. It was forming in my Fallopian tube and I went into the hospital immediately, because to let the pregnancy continue would kill me.

After they removed the ONLY baby I had ever conceived (along with the tube it was lodged in), I was told that I would never be allowed to get pregnant again, because my remaining tube was completely blocked and any pregnancy would be the same as this one. I had to make an appointment for another surgery to have the other tube and ovary removed.

Only then was I able to deal with the loss of the only baby I would ever have.

The people crying in this thread about how unfair it all is make me ill. Yeah, life isn't fair. It hurts like hell sometimes. So, put on your big-boy pants, stop being a victim and instead of crying and blaming the women for your pain, realize that life is not fair to ANYONE. Sometimes life is the most beautiful thing you can imagine, and other times it hurts. Blaming the woman with "It's not FAIR!!!" is the most childish, selfish and ignorant thing you can do. Buck the # up! Be a man. Stop being a victim and quit crying! Jesus!

originally posted by: WanderingSage

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: WanderingSage

I had a girl abort my child without even telling me and I've never felt sadness and pain like that before.

Did you think about that before your "contribution?"

Did I think about her aborting my child before I had sex with her? No I didn't think she was the kind of person to do that. As a 16 year old boy I wasn't ready and she pressured me into it. So for her to kill my child after she pressured me into sex was the worst feeling of betrayal. Especially since I can't have kids now. Radiation exposure and all that.

It would have been nice to have the opportunity to talk her out of it

I feel some of your pain brother.

I found out I would never be a Dad at the age of 11.

I've always felt abortion wasn't fair to the father.

I don't give a rat's you know what that it's "her body" She has conscious control over said body, and she made the decision to have unprotected sex. To kill a developing life, simply because you were too stupid to think ahead, is selfish.

I couldn't imagine the pain to hear you had a child on the way, and because the person who fell on the heavier side of genetics and responsibility, decided to kill it. Makes my skin crawl.

But, by the same notion, I believe in freedom. So I empathize with the thought process of "my choice". However, that choice should end, where another's DNA and a created life are concerned.

Choose to smoke, fine.
Choose to drink, fine.
Choose to kill another human....not so much.

I really like the analogy of bald Eagle's eggs.

It's against the law to destroy an Eagle's egg, but not a human fetus.

SMH.

No one will ever convince me that's proper thinking. Ever.

My internal right and wrong meter goes way off the wrong scale on this one.

originally posted by: poncho1982
She has conscious control over said body, and she made the decision to have unprotected sex. To kill a developing life, simply because you were too stupid to think ahead, is selfish.

And the fact that the MAN made the decision to have unprotected sex, simply because HE was too stupid to think ahead, is NOT selfish and carries no responsibility for creating an unwanted baby?

The woman always gets blamed, simply because it grows in her body. Where's the man's responsibility?

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Thanks for the sentiment! I LOVE being a mother. But boy I HATE being pregnant! I want one more and I want to get it over with ASAP so I can get my tubes tied and get this hernia fixed. It's horribly depressing when people think you're pregnant...and you're not...not even fat, just stretched separated muscles with your guts poking through the gap.

But as I said, my pregnancies were considered totally normal and healthy!

And you are right that a lot of the time seeing/holding the newborn for the first time dissolves all the doubt and replaces it with nothing but love and joy. But... this is the real world, and there are also plenty of times when a baby (planned or not) destroys relationships. Well, let me clarify, not the baby itself but the existence of the baby and all the stress and work that comes with it.

I think a lot of pro-lifers have this whole 'cute rosy cheeked baby just begging to be loved' image in their heads and that's not always the case.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

CAN I GET AN AMEN!!!!




* Your story really sucks balls. I'm so sorry you had to go through all that. If I had easier pregnancies and were a few years younger I wish I could have a baby just to give to you.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

Well, if it's prematurely born. And far enough along to survive outside the womb, then by all means feed it formula, wrap it in a blanket, etc.

Viability outside the womb is dependent upon the current state of technology, which has advanced through time.

If the "object", which is alive, is removed prior to the time at which "it" can be sustained then you know the outcome.

Relax, abortion is legal. I try to not argue about whether it's "right" or "wrong", but more what it IS.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

EXACTLY! When my step-daughter got pregnant in college, the boy didn't want to have anything to do with her or the baby. His attitude was "you told me you were on the pill - not my problem". In fact, she WAS on the pill - never missed a day, but got pregnant anyway. So now, she is pregnant with no partner to help her. Did she sit around and cry no fair? Nope, she just got on with it. She had to drop out of college, while the boy who got her pregnant stayed and got his degree.

Sometimes life sucks. You gotta deal with it.

originally posted by: Phage
Actually, the question can (and often does) go way beyond "double."
However from the point of view of your argument, all the male contributes is a pile of DNA. Stuff he sheds on an ongoing basis. The female is quite a bit more invested. Hardly an equal contribution.

No, # you, both the male and female are equally as necessary to creating new life, there is no argument to be made that is a simple fact.

The woman does not get the liberty of renouncing her actions because of selfish self-preservation. It is a concerted decision based on THE NEEDS OF THE CHILD.

a reply to: poncho1982

OP's so upset because NOW he's sterile. So he's looking back on the past through a haze, playing the coulda woulda shoulda game and romanticizing the whole situation.

Trust me, if she had kept it he would be cursing her name for having to pay child support and ruining his youth.

As far as your general opinion on abortion. You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect it. And when you get pregnant you are welcome to carry it to term.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: poncho1982
She has conscious control over said body, and she made the decision to have unprotected sex. To kill a developing life, simply because you were too stupid to think ahead, is selfish.

And the fact that the MAN made the decision to have unprotected sex, simply because HE was too stupid to think ahead, is NOT selfish and carries no responsibility for creating an unwanted baby?

The woman always gets blamed, simply because it grows in her body. Where's the man's responsibility?

You're both creating hypothetical situations that have no basis in reality. Sometimes it is the woman's fault sometimes it is the man's. This is not something that needs argument because we are not going to pick a gender and say "this is your misdoing". Give up your petty BS because we're trying to get something done in this thread.

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

Yeah it's legal. But Republicans are doing their damnedest to shut down clinics- including the ones that provide birth control and completely non-abortion related women's care.

And the point of this whole thread was to debate the extent of the father's input on the decision. But if the woman wants an abortion and the man doesn't....well we're right back where we started now aren't we?

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

Viability outside the womb is dependent upon the current state of technology, which has advanced through time.

Not really. If a fetus' lungs are undeveloped, there's not much medical science can do to push air through them.

because of selfish self-preservation

is beating the war drums in an attempt to convince us to bomb entire villages, and cities into oblivion because "they want to kill us", "they hate our way of life", "they want to take our freedom away" also selfish self-preservation? tell ya what, when the gov't and it's supporters decide to stop beating those drums and sending our children into wars that are purely based on unjustified fears.....men can talk about women's selfish desires for self-preservation!

a reply to: pianoasis

a reply to: pianoasis

Do you have ANY concept whatsoever of the fact that a vast majority of abortions are done:
1. Because there are physical defects which may or may not be considered life threatening but would have a huge impact on the child's life and huge drain on any caretakers (being the mother or adoptive parents).
2. Done WITH the consent and support of the father.
3. If done without consent, because the father is abusive (emotionally, physically) therefore the woman IS taking the needs of the child into consideration.

Is it really fair to bring a child into the world KNOWING that they will be subject to poverty and abuse?

And darn those women and their self preservation! *shakes fist in the air - ok, that last part was sarcasm

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: DenyObfuscation

Viability outside the womb is dependent upon the current state of technology, which has advanced through time.

Not really. If a fetus' lungs are undeveloped, there's not much medical science can do to push air through them.

Yep. That's the current state.[assuming it's done at an early enough stage of development] Given that, you know the outcome of the act.

If a single father didn't feed his infant and the child died, would you support his defense of "Your Honor, it's not like I locked the cabinets and fridge. Not my fault he couldn't survive on his own"?